Is God merciful

[Randall McNally]

God made everthing, God made the rules, and if God made a rule that people deserve to burn in hell for following their nature, HE IS DAMNING US. People say sin is our nature and because we sin we DESERVE to burn in hell. So basically because we ae the way God made us, we deserve eternal torment. THAT isn't mercy.

It seems the Catholic fellow from Kentucky gets it.

 

[kakudmi]

Remember that we are all sinners. We all DESERVE to burn and be tormented in hell!

OK, but can you explain why are we as such? And where does that say in Bible?

How come God created such a terrible things like us, sinners who deserve to burn in hell forever?
We are , after all, parts of God, created by Him, thus spiritually same we originaly belong in the heaven, together with Him, as His servants.
Where does this forever in hell comes in the picture? I don't understand your logic.

 

[pro_odeh]

God made one single rule. To that we would follow His will. Since He is perfect, He cannot tolerate sin, and if we commit sin, we cannot be with Him. But humans used the free will that God had gave them to do sin, thus making people born into a sinful nature. (God could have made a bunch of robots with no will, but I am glad He didnt!). He could have erased the whole mankind. But Im glad He didnt do that either.
But, yes He is damning us. God is mercyful and just. Its justice to punish evil, and its mercyful of Him to forgive!
God bless!

 

[Mustaphile]

Am I to believe that God is rejecting them as pagans and all their love and devotion for Him he rewards with ETERNAL punishment in hell?

I need to understand this. Please help my ignorance.

You don't need to believe in anything that does not sit well with your conscience, what you need to do is examine whether what you have been told concerning these things is lacking, for yourself, and use the leading of your conscience to take you to where the truth lies in it's entirety, for you. I'd invite you to visit the liberal theology forum and ask some questions there, as you might find the answers more acceptable to your conscience than those presented by the more conservative understandings of christianity and furthermore, you won't have those who have little empathy for christianity and take pleasure in painting it in the most grim light possible from distracting you from coming to a better understanding. Christ was a man that paid a price for being true to his convictions. If the price of remaing true to your convictions, leads you away from conservative thought on the matter, then perhaps thats the price you need to pay. If you are labelled and scolded for your convictions of where righteousness comes from, the take joy in that you suffer for a good cause. Liberal theology is about addresssing these concerns you have in an intelligent, reasoned and compassionate way. Take up the challenge and come see for yourself. I don't think you can give God a fair chance to reveal himself to you unless you take the time to look at what all christians have to say on the subject, both progressive christians and conservative christians.

 

[kakudmi]

Thank you for your kindness. Can you please take me to the right discussion forum where I can get some meaningful answers that make sense and are in the line with the scriptures. I need to talk with some serious theologists.
Thank you,
Kristijan

You don't need to believe in anything that does not sit well with your conscience, what you need to do is examine whether what you have been told concerning these things is lacking, for yourself, and use the leading of your conscience to take you to where the truth lies in it's entirety, for you. I'd invite you to visit the liberal theology forum and ask some questions there, as you might find the answers more acceptable to your conscience than those presented by the more conservative understandings of christianity and furthermore, you won't have those who have little empathy for christianity and take pleasure in painting it in the most grim light possible from distracting you from coming to a better understanding. Christ was a man that paid a price for being true to his convictions. If the price of remaing true to your convictions, leads you away from conservative thought on the matter, then perhaps thats the price you need to pay. If you are labelled and scolded for your convictions of where righteousness comes from, the take joy in that you suffer for a good cause. Liberal theology is about addresssing these concerns you have in an intelligent, reasoned and compassionate way. Take up the challenge and come see for yourself. I don't think you can give God a fair chance to reveal himself to you unless you take the time to look at what all christians have to say on the subject, both progressive christians and conservative christians.

 

[repentandbelieve]

It seems the Catholic fellow from Kentucky gets it.

What he is saying would be true if it were not for one very important truth. God forsaw that the entire human race would fall prey to sin and He made a provision for it.

 

[Randall McNally]

What he is saying would be true if it were not for one very important truth. God forsaw that the entire human race would fall prey to sin and He made a provision for it.

If God foresaw it, why would He have had to make a provision for it? It would have been part of His plan all along.

 

[kakudmi]

If God foresaw it, why would He have had to make a provision for it? It would have been part of His plan all along.

Yes, it seems like we're talking about God who didn’t know what He was doing.

He made a terrible mess out of human race and He didn't have any other choice but to threaten humans throughout the centuries (via media of church) that unless they do this or that they will burn in Hell. It's like giving a child expensive toys and then beat him for breaking it.



There are many unanswered questions that Bible cannot answer unless starts all kinds of threats like "believe or die".



I cannot see how Christianity will keep it's followers who demand more serious answers that that. You could do that centuries ago, frighten people, torture them, perform genocides, all in the name of salvation. We have a history of such practices.

I think it is the time to get logical and explain people why things happen. Why there's so much hatred in the world, why are there so many different religions, why was church killing so many in the past in the name of God, why is our Bible reformed (changed) 8 times throughout the history, who is God, how does He look like, what happens when we die, what is heaven and how is it like there, what are we going to do there for the whole eternity, if God is merciful why does he create people who are against Him from the day they were born (not their fault), why why, why, so many why's and the answers are so threatening and not satisfying. The modern human requires a bit more that a mere shelter for the unsecured people who like to believe that "our way is the only way, all others burn in Hell, just believe and you will be saved"



That's the cheap way of loving God, very much motivated, no need to do much, just believe. It's like some kind of mental trick, where you imagine that you believe in Christ as your savior and that's it. I know some of you will say there's more than that to it, but essentially, all Christians, when faced with questions they cannot answer, say the same thing, Jesus died for our sins, be grateful, behold the mercy of our Lord, just believe in Him and thou shall be saved."

I don't really see that as the answer. I didn't as Jesus to die for me, nor did I requested to be born sinful and condemned from my birth, and thus bound to surrender my faith to Jesus or else burn in Hell.



We are eternal, as spirit souls. We are meant to be with God, we are His children. He loves us more than we can imagine, He loves us as a perfect God can possibly love anything. He is perfect in everything, thus as a source of all, His creation must be perfect. Otherwise, He's not perfect either.

Everything He does or did in the past or will do in the future is perfect part of His perfect plan. He is God, nothing He does is wrong or bad.



Why would he send even one of His rebellious children to eternal suffering.



If there's one parent on this forum, please tell me, what kind of offense your child would have to coming for you to kill him?

Now imagine you're almighty, and your child abandons you, and you have the power to forgive him and accept him over and over again, for as long as it takes for your beloved child or children to get sober and come back to you, or ...you can send him straight to the place YOU have created in which your beloved child will stay forever out or your sight, burning in flames, tortured in a most terrifying ways, forever and ever, never to stop, your own child, just because he said no to you and didn't listed to your instructions.



Let me tell you. It looks like my mother is more merciful that our Lord.

Moreover, it seems, according to our philosophy, that our God is a monster, not less than that.



But since I don't believe that God is a monster, but a loving, merciful and kind parent, I believe that He will offer me as many chances to reconsider coming back to Him as I require.



And finally, I do believe there is a place like Hell, for those who are very sinful, but I don't believe that a soul can stay there forever.



I think that our Bible was changed so many times, to fit the greedy needs of the emperors in the past, such as Augustinian and others, that many parts of our philosophy were altered and excluded so that the government and the church can keep the people under the control, by threatening philosophy, promising eternal heaven as a reward to their faithfulness to church, or eternal hell, as the punishment for not being as loyal as church wanted them to be.



I'm very sad to see how nothing much has changed in our philosophy except nowadays we're not allowed to physically kill people to get them to surrender to Christ, but alas, we have kept the same sectarian vision of us being the only people God loves and rewards with eternal heaven. Others, unless they convert, to Hell with them. And serves them right, Jesus offered them a chance and they refused. They deserve to burn, forever and ever.



If that's God Christianity is worshiping that I think it is close to worshiping goddess Kali or Durgha in Hinduism, the ferocious Gods that punish severely and reward kindly if you worship them properly.



And who is God after all?



What is His role in this whole charade?



Is he simply our judge who sits high above and is angry all the time, punishing people and rewarding them? Where is His pleasure in all this?

We are rewarded with different pleasures, be that in this life or in the heaven.

We enjoy and we suffer. But what about Him?

He is God, and I haven't seen or heard Him having fun in any way.

What is up with that. What kind of God is that? He is simply overstressed, overworked, angry supernatural being who has nothing better to do but to hover over our lives and scream at us through our church and scriptures, and we go left and right, trying to make sure we do everything right so that He might calm down and give us our long promised paradise, where we go after we die and simply enjoy ourselves with our family and loved ones?

And what about Him? What does He do in paradise? Is he even there or He's too busy with His hovering business?

Maybe He simply sits on his throne with Jesus on the right, and watches us having all the good time for the whole eternity.



I don't get it. How did we develop such a theory? How did we distort the original teachings of Jesus so terribly that we cannot answer any simple questions about God without being rude?



Someone, please, hear my doubts and answer with logic and not fanatical, sectarian threats...



Thank you,



In God I trust, but God I don't understand.

 

[Christi]

OK, I see you guys are pretty much convinced about Jesus being your saviour and all and that sounds great.

But here's my problem: Christi said: "Because there IS only one way! HIM.

And throughout time, He's bent over backwards to forgive over and over again, and bring us to Him. He finally just opened the gates wide to everyone, and threw out all the rules but loving Him and loving each other.
If anyone gets damned to all eternity, it's because they'd rather be damned than love God enough to surrender and submit to Him. God doesn't damn us. We damn ourselves."


What about, say, hindus, who believe in God in a different way, through karma and reincarnation they get chances over and over again to clean their souls from all the sins they have acumulated.
Or muslims, who believe in a similar heaven but only through Alah and Koran.
Some of these paths have been out there longer than Christianity, milleniums ago, they have been worshiping God in their own way.
Are you guys saying that God is merciful but He will send all of them to hell, forever, because they have not recognized Jesus as the ONLY way and have no intetions to do so in the future.
In fact, some of them might approach us Christians and try to convert us.
My problem is that as we believe that our Jesus is the only way for all mankind, others strongly believe that Alah is the only way, or Krishna is the only way or Buddha or whoever.
Their faith is as logical to them as ours is to us. They love God with same devotion we love Jesus. They have their own incarnations and prophets which they follow faithfully.
Am I to believe that God is rejecting them as pagans and all their love and devotion for Him he rewards with ETERNAL punishment in hell?

I need to understand this. Please help my ignorance.

Thanks.
Kristijan

It's not ignorance. You are asking very important and very universal questions. There is nothing you said in this post that I have an answer for, and nothing you said that I haven't wrestled with. I'm a "what if..?" type of person. I tend to always play "devils advocate" ( no pun intended) with ANYTHING I can't figure out on my own. My post was based on my own personal experience. I've met this Jesus. I know Him. I know it's Him, and no one else. How to convince you? I don't really know how, I can only tell you what He means to me, and that He's real. You asking these questions, and challenging us to answer them (forgive my feeble attempts) can help us all, maybe? I'm not much on theology, because Jesus isn't a theory or a theology. You can know everything there is to know about Christianity and Christ, without knowing Him. He is the Way. And yes, I know other religions feel the same about their god. I don't know how to answer, and I can't answer with absolute certainty, and I seriously don't think any of us will be able to answer that to your satisfaction. But asking questions is never wrong, most of the time it's leads to a faith that is stronger. Don't ever apologize for thinking. He made us to do that.

 

[kakudmi]

It's not ignorance. You are asking very important and very universal questions. There is nothing you said in this post that I have an answer for, and nothing you said that I haven't wrestled with. I'm a "what if..?" type of person. I tend to always play "devils advocate" ( no pun intended) with ANYTHING I can't figure out on my own. My post was based on my own personal experience. I've met this Jesus. I know Him. I know it's Him, and no one else. How to convince you? I don't really know how, I can only tell you what He means to me, and that He's real. You asking these questions, and challenging us to answer them (forgive my feeble attempts) can help us all, maybe? I'm not much on theology, because Jesus isn't a theory or a theology. You can know everything there is to know about Christianity and Christ, without knowing Him. He is the Way. And yes, I know other religions feel the same about their god. I don't know how to answer, and I can't answer with absolute certainty, and I seriously don't think any of us will be able to answer that to your satisfaction. But asking questions is never wrong, most of the time it's leads to a faith that is stronger. Don't ever apologize for thinking. He made us to do that.

Thanks Christi.

What you're saying is plain right by me. You feel that Jesus is your way and nothing else. You know that He is your savior and no one else. You commint yourself to His teachings knowing (or hoping) that at the end it'll prove to be the truth.
Do you think it's right to impose on the rest of the world the same idea, beating them to death untill then submit?
Cause that is exactly what church was doing for a long time.

I think it's sinfuly wrong. You can offer but not force. You can offer your religion to someone, or maybe suggest, but never force or throw statements like : unless you do, you go to hell forever. Cause in my heart I know that isn't the fact. God accepts anyone who worships Him with love and devotion, and I believe that God is not limited by only one way. That would be so inconsiderate of Him. There are different people on this planet who find other ways of worshiping and approaching God easier for them and they do it sincerely with devotion. God accepts that, He doesn't send them to hell!

And as I said before, Jesus came a little over 2000 yrs ago, but we find humanity exsiting long before that; civilized humans that is. City of Mohenjodaro is older than 6000 years. They had their ways of worshiping God. Do you think every soul before Jesus was simply punished to go to purgatory or hell? No, no and no.
We should stop preaching this nonsense.

As a Christian I say to people, I worship Jesus, He's my only way to God. What's your way?

Kristijan

 

[Christi]

Thanks Christi.

What you're saying is plain right by me. You feel that Jesus is your way and nothing else. You know that He is your savior and no one else. You commint yourself to His teachings knowing (or hoping) that at the end it'll prove to be the truth.
Do you think it's right to impose on the rest of the world the same idea, beating them to death untill then submit?
Cause that is exactly what church was doing for a long time.
I think it's sinfuly wrong. You can offer but not force. You can offer your religion to someone, or maybe suggest, but never force or throw statements like : unless you do, you go to hell forever. Cause in my heart I know that isn't the fact. God accepts anyone who worships Him with love and devotion, and I believe that God is not limited by only one way. That would be so inconsiderate of Him. There are different people on this planet who find other ways of worshiping and approaching God easier for them and they do it sincerely with devotion. God accepts that, He doesn't send them to hell!

And as I said before, Jesus came a little over 2000 yrs ago, but we find humanity exsiting long before that; civilized humans that is. City of Mohenjodaro is older than 6000 years. They had their ways of worshiping God. Do you think every soul before Jesus was simply punished to go to purgatory or hell? No, no and no.
We should stop preaching this nonsense.

As a Christian I say to people, I worship Jesus, He's my only way to God. What's your way?

Kristijan

About 90% of what you said, I totally agree with. There is about 10% that prickles at me. I'm not going to answer right now, because I want to understand myself and organize my beliefs about why Jesus is the only Way and the only way to God (besides the obvious scriptures saying just that). I feel that you'd like more than that. I'd like to pray, and then talk with you further later tonight or tomorrow, if you'll be around. Regardless, reading about Jesus, even in an objective context, you'll see He's not much on forcing himself on anyone, and anyone knows that sincere love and devotion aren't achieved by force, guilt or coercion.

 

[Mustaphile]

Thank you for your kindness. Can you please take me to the right discussion forum where I can get some meaningful answers that make sense and are in the line with the scriptures. I need to talk with some serious theologists.
Thank you,
Kristijan

This is the Liberal Theology forum

This is where where the liberal christians hang out

All I can suggest to you is that you read through the many threads in those areas and see for yourself if they speak to your heart, mind and soul concerning the truth, then make your own decisions concerning the direction in which you would like your develop your faith.

 

[repentandbelieve]

,





.




I don't get it. How did we develop such a theory? How did we distort the original teachings of Jesus so terribly that we cannot answer any simple questions about God without being rude?



Someone, please, hear my doubts and answer with logic and not fanatical, sectarian threats...



Thank you,



In God I trust, but God I don't understand.

You have a lot of very legitmate questions. Way too many to address in a single post.

Like many, you are destitute of the truth concerning God. You've been disceived. Your beliefs concerning God are based on misconceptions. What you lack is a knowledge of the truth.

Just as God is LOVE, Jesus is the TRUTH. The Truth about God is so essential, there is no other way way to the Father without it.

I hear your doubts, and I'm trying to answer them. But please, one question at a time. The truth is built precept upon precept.

Your right the teachings of Jesus have been "terribly distorted". Apparently you have enough knowledge of the original teachings of Jesus to discern that. Did Jesus teach that God the Father is unmerciful? The anwer is no, quite the opposite.

Now, here is my question to you. How is that you are critical of other who distort the teachings of Jesus when you are also quilty of distorting His teachings. Jesus taught that God is merciful, you teach that God is unmerciful. yet you are critical of those who distort Jesus' teaching. I don't understand?????????

 

[repentandbelieve]

If God foresaw it, why would He have had to make a provision for it? It would have been part of His plan all along.

Your asking me to explain why things are the way they are, and the only explanation I am able to give you is because that is the way God choose it to be.

Hypothetical situation. I sell you a house knowing full well that you are not capable of paying for it. In the contract ( or covenant) I make a provision that if you cannot pay for it someone else can. When you are unable to pay, I send someone else who does.

I want you to have the house. I know that you are incapable of paying for it. Nobody, except me is capable of paying for it. The price is infinate. So I had to make some sort of provision for you to obtain. What i require in return is your love. I desire you to love me more than the house and everything else that I have already given you.

Ok, so it was part of the plan all along. Does that make it wrong?

 

[Randall McNally]

Your asking me to explain why things are the way they are, and the only explanation I am able to give you is because that is the way God choose it to be.

Hypothetical situation. I sell you a house knowing full well that you are not capable of paying for it. In the contract ( or covenant) I make a provision that if you cannot pay for it someone else can. When you are unable to pay, I send someone else who does.

I want you to have the house. I know that you are incapable of paying for it. Nobody, except me is capable of paying for it. The price is infinate. So I had to make some sort of provision for you to obtain. What i require in return is your love. I desire you to love me more than the house and everything else that I have already given you.

Ok, so it was part of the plan all along. Does that make it wrong?

Wrong? Probably not. Convoluted, overly-complex, hard-to-understand? Arguably.

 

[Maynard Keenan]

The thing is Christ doesn't come directly to us and say hey im here to pay for it. We have to rely on second and third hand accounts of something that seems by all logic to be impossible, that we must accept without any reason to accept it above any other religion. I cant say that if I wasn't raised a Christian that I would accept christianity. It seems right to be but it may only be because I've always been told it is right. I agree that Christ is the only path to heaven but I'm not sure one must explicitly and overtly accept his gift. I'm also not sure that, as some believe, simply being a Christian is a free ticket ot heaven. There are plenty who are christians and accepted christ but then dont end up doing anything about it.

 

[kakudmi]

You have a lot of very legitmate questions. Way too many to address in a single post.

Like many, you are destitute of the truth concerning God. You've been disceived. Your beliefs concerning God are based on misconceptions. What you lack is a knowledge of the truth.

Just as God is LOVE, Jesus is the TRUTH. The Truth about God is so essential, there is no other way way to the Father without it.

I hear your doubts, and I'm trying to answer them. But please, one question at a time. The truth is built precept upon precept.

Your right the teachings of Jesus have been "terribly distorted". Apparently you have enough knowledge of the original teachings of Jesus to discern that. Did Jesus teach that God the Father is unmerciful? The anwer is no, quite the opposite.

Now, here is my question to you. How is that you are critical of other who distort the teachings of Jesus when you are also quilty of distorting His teachings. Jesus taught that God is merciful, you teach that God is unmerciful. yet you are critical of those who distort Jesus' teaching. I don't understand?????????

I never said God is not merciful. I'm saying that according to our teachings God appears to be a monster. We scare away lots of people who think that our teachings are unfair and that they don't make much sense, too fanatical and sectarian.

I don't know what are the original teachings of Jesus. The only Jesus I know if the One from the Bible. But the scripture has been altered so many times to fit the needs of the emperors throughout the past. Lusty, power hungry rulers who didn't accept Jesus and his teachings untill Peter (or was it Paul) agreed to compromise and to mix with them to appeal to their behavior (meat eating, wine drinking and all) and to get them to accept Jesus. Untill then, Christ's followers were killed, tortured and cast away. Romans were simply too sinful to accept the original teaching so they needed to be modified. They were allowed the same diet and the idea of one life was introduced, in that way, they could control the people by the method of fear: You have only one life and unless you submit you'll burn forever."
One should carefuly study all the councils throughout the history and find out what was anathemed, excluded, introduced etc.

That is why it is so hard for us to answer daring questions such as; what happens if you're born in Africa, never heard about Jesus, they teach you to eat humas all your life and to worship some totems and idols, and then you die, where do you go?
Whay happens to the newborn baby of, say, the muslim family, who dies after a day or a week of her/his life; where does the sould of that baby goes?
In the same way we can question the mercy of God by asking, why would he throw me in hell forever for a short 30, 40, or 50 years of sinful life without giving me another chance to get right, just like any loving parent would do.

But if you impose that there's only one life, you are making our God very unfair.

Take a look at the Bible when Jesus walks by a man who was blind from his birth. Jesus's disciples asked Him: "Rabi, is reason for his blindness the sins of his parents or his own sins?"

Now, the first part of the question I can understand, if his parents were sinful, maybe their punishment was to get a blind child (although it is not fair towards the child, but let's forget about that for now), but what does that mean, "or is it due to his sins?" When did he get a chance to commint any sins if he didn't existed before this life?
Obvoiusly, they knew about the idea of past life, and Jesus didn't even corrected them like, what are you talking about, how can he sin before he was born, or something like that.

Seems like there's much more to the Jesus teachings than we know of today.
And it seems that might be the reason for so many holes in out philosophy.

Any comments,
Thanks
Kristijan

 

[mamabear4]

Seems like there's much more to the Jesus teachings than we know of today.

And it seems that might be the reason for so many holes in out philosophy.

Any comments,
Thanks
Kristijan

I think what it all boils down to is our acceptance of the Bible as the inspired Word of God. If it's not, then we have lots and lots of holes in our philosophy. If it is, then we have answers to our questions. Praise God!

 

[kakudmi]

I think what it all boils down to is our acceptance of the Bible as the inspired Word of God. If it's not, then we have lots and lots of holes in our philosophy. If it is, then we have answers to our questions. Praise God!

Wouldn't you rather have The Bible As It Is then just the Bible written and altered by who-knows-who?

 

[mamabear4]

I am unaware that anyone altered the Bible. Would you clarify please?