Is God infinitely ancient?

ToBeLoved · Oct 18, 2017

DennisTate said:
Prophets are allowed to be human and flawed........
The Prophet Daniel admitted clearly and plainly that he did NOT
fully understand the visions and dreams that he had been given......
so he prayed and asked for clarification.

Yes...... I do believe that Prophets had near death experiences or at the least
out of body experiences..... but of course...... this is a conclusion that I arrived at
after years of study....... and even after years of study..... I have arrived at conclusions that were terribly flawed and in error.

After reading the Bible perhaps fifty times while I was a teenager and into my twenties, I was a firm believer in the "Soul Sleep" doctrine that I now am 99.9% certain is terribly in error.

Here is an example of a verse in the Jewish Bible that sure seems to fit with some aspects of II Corinthians 12:2-4........

2Kings 6:12

'And one of his servants said, None, my lord, O king: but Elisha, the prophet that is in Israel, telleth the king of Israel the words that thou speakest in thy bedchamber.'

It seems to me that if.......
Messiah Yeshua / Jesus did indeed have either a near death experience or at least an out of the body experience while fasting for forty days.... then......
as is reported by other near death experiencers..... once one has their first OOBE or two or three.....
controlling the OOBE becomes possible and you may be able to make statements like:

John 1:48

¶
Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

You really are off with this entire idea that Jesus had a near death experience in the desert during the 40 days.

What would the purpose of that be? He is God. He knows EXACTLY what happens after death, He is the Judge. He is God. He created all things and is eternal.

That hypothesis makes absolutely no sense to me. None.

It goes against believing Christ is God and was perfect. You are assigning a lot of non perfect/ mankind like, properties to Jesus Christ.

You are on a very slippery slope and your hypothesis is very unBiblical. I recommend getting back to who Christ is.

PeaceJoyLove · Oct 18, 2017

DennisTate said:
Prophets are allowed to be human and flawed........
The Prophet Daniel admitted clearly and plainly that he did NOT
fully understand the visions and dreams that he had been given......
so he prayed and asked for clarification.

Yes...... I do believe that Prophets had near death experiences or at the least
out of body experiences..... but of course...... this is a conclusion that I arrived at
after years of study....... and even after years of study..... I have arrived at conclusions that were terribly flawed and in error.

After reading the Bible perhaps fifty times while I was a teenager and into my twenties, I was a firm believer in the "Soul Sleep" doctrine that I now am 99.9% certain is terribly in error.

Here is an example of a verse in the Jewish Bible that sure seems to fit with some aspects of II Corinthians 12:2-4........

2Kings 6:12

'And one of his servants said, None, my lord, O king: but Elisha, the prophet that is in Israel, telleth the king of Israel the words that thou speakest in thy bedchamber.'

It seems to me that if.......
Messiah Yeshua / Jesus did indeed have either a near death experience or at least an out of the body experience while fasting for forty days.... then......
as is reported by other near death experiencers..... once one has their first OOBE or two or three.....
controlling the OOBE becomes possible and you may be able to make statements like:

John 1:48

¶
Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

My (self-professing atheist) husband had near death experience during a massive heart attack. When the EMTs arrived, they could find no pulse or blood pressure. It took two weeks before my husband spoke of his experience. He wept as he spoke and said that he was surrounded by such peace and love. He went on to say the love enveloped him and that Jesus spoke to him telling him that he was going to be okay. He spoke about God and knowing that HE was real and existed...beyond a shadow of a doubt. He says it is hard to put into words what he saw, experienced and felt/perceived while there in the NDE.

Prior to this experience, God could not be spoken without hubby going off on a tyrant about a fairy tale and practically frothing at the mouth at the mention of God. Now, is a man who weeps with profound knowing he cannot put into adequate words...believing beyond a shadow of a doubt.

That being said, I have come to know The Father as I/we have always been known. Face to face. Veil gone, revealed by the spirit that lives within. There is a way that seems right unto a man...but man wants to build a city or an idol out of things received...which is truth cast down that become serpents in our garden. The promise of entering into His rest/kingdom/through door reclined at the table/marvelous light (out of darkness) are not some far off thing that happens after this tent of flesh physically dies. For the things of God are spiritual truths WITHIN our being. "It is the Spirit giving life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life." ...like a tree in the midst of a garden and what we eat/where we eat/see/hear from...as in the question "Where art thou?" asked of Adam after the fall ("how you have fallen from heaven")...

Duality within must become ONE...the journey of our soul (back) through Christ (the door)...single of eye. As long as there is a shadow, there be dim 'seeing'...the image being revealed in the mirror...a son created in the image of God...though nothing can circumvent the process that must take place within...

DennisTate · Oct 18, 2017

PeaceJoyLove said:
My (self-professing atheist) husband had near death experience during a massive heart attack. When the EMTs arrived, they could find no pulse or blood pressure. It took two weeks before my husband spoke of his experience. He wept as he spoke and said that he was surrounded by such peace and love. He went on to say the love enveloped him and that Jesus spoke to him telling him that he was going to be okay. He spoke about God and knowing that HE was real and existed...beyond a shadow of a doubt. He says it is hard to put into words what he saw, experienced and felt/perceived while there in the NDE.

Prior to this experience, God could not be spoken without hubby going off on a tyrant about a fairy tale and practically frothing at the mouth at the mention of God. Now, is a man who weeps with profound knowing he cannot put into adequate words...believing beyond a shadow of a doubt.

That being said, I have come to know The Father as I/we have always been known. Face to face. Veil gone, revealed by the spirit that lives within. There is a way that seems right unto a man...but man wants to build a city or an idol out of things received...which is truth cast down that become serpents in our garden. The promise of entering into His rest/kingdom/through door reclined at the table/marvelous light (out of darkness) are not some far off thing that happens after this tent of flesh physically dies. For the things of God are spiritual truths WITHIN our being. "It is the Spirit giving life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and they are life." ...like a tree in the midst of a garden and what we eat/where we eat/see/hear from...as in the question "Where art thou?" asked of Adam after the fall ("how you have fallen from heaven")...

Duality within must become ONE...the journey of our soul (back) through Christ (the door)...single of eye. As long as there is a shadow, there be dim 'seeing'...the image being revealed in the mirror...a son created in the image of God...though nothing can circumvent the process that must take place within...

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Isaiah chapters 42 - 46.... in one sense are about Messiah Yeshua - Jesus..... and in another sense..... they are not.........

Isaiah 45:4,5 pretty much rule out the possibility of those chapters being about Messiah Yeshua - Jesus exclusively..........
but.... Messiah Yeshua - Jesus judges the people who DO NOT yet believe in him..... with total objectivity!

Your husband..... in spite of all of his flaws..... could perhaps..... in the yes of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus have more genuine love for others..... than perhaps eighty percent or more of genuine Christians..........
so from my 27 years of researching NDE accounts..... i would tend to think that your husband.... actually met Messiah Yeshua - Jesus and yes..... was given a very positive message........

because ALL JUDGMENT.... .is committed to the Son!

John 5:22

"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

PeaceJoyLove · Oct 18, 2017

DennisTate said:
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Isaiah chapters 42 - 46.... in one sense are about Messiah Yeshua - Jesus..... and in another sense..... they are not.........

Isaiah 45:4,5 pretty much rule out the possibility of those chapters being about Messiah Yeshua - Jesus exclusively..........
but.... Messiah Yeshua - Jesus judges the people who DO NOT yet believe in him..... with total objectivity!

Your husband..... in spite of all of his flaws..... could perhaps..... in the yes of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus have more genuine love for others..... than perhaps eighty percent or more of genuine Christians..........
so from my 27 years of researching NDE accounts..... i would tend to think that your husband.... actually met Messiah Yeshua - Jesus and yes..... was given a very positive message........

because ALL JUDGMENT.... .is committed to the Son!

John 5:22

"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"

I walked many years as a believing wife to an unbelieving spouse. The LORD taught me how to walk as a godly wife (no easy feat to from self!) by the power of His spirit within and not speaking a word, I might convert my husband. Which (to keep a long story short) really meant walking in God's love, not judging nor condemning (for such things breed animosity.)
Many a night I laid my hands upon my husband as he slept and prayed for God to reveal Himself in a way that there would be no mistaking (in my husband's mind) that it was HIM.

God has a way of humbling, exalting and revealing Himself...many times the efforts of what one might "think" is the thing to do brings more harm than good...

I did not have NDE or OOBE, though my mind of flesh be dead, soul lost to found again IN HIM...though the path from there to here (entered in) was no walk in the park. It was an agonizing bringing to a dark night of soul...til the morning star arose in my heart...awakened.

ToBeLoved · Oct 18, 2017

PeaceJoyLove said:
I walked many years as a believing wife to an unbelieving spouse. The LORD taught me how to walk as a godly wife (no easy feat to from self!) by the power of His spirit within and not speaking a word, I might convert my husband. Which (to keep a long story short) really meant walking in God's love, not judging nor condemning (for such things breed animosity.)
Many a night I laid my hands upon my husband as he slept and prayed for God to reveal Himself in a way that there would be no mistaking (in my husband's mind) that it was HIM.

God has a way of humbling, exalting and revealing Himself...many times the efforts of what one might "think" is the thing to do brings more harm than good...

I did not have NDE or OOBE, though my mind of flesh be dead, soul lost to found again IN HIM...though the path from there to here (entered in) was no walk in the park. It was an agonizing bringing to a dark night of soul...til the morning star arose in my heart...awakened.

Your husband is lucky to have a Godly wife.

DennisTate · Oct 18, 2017

PeaceJoyLove said:
I walked many years as a believing wife to an unbelieving spouse. The LORD taught me how to walk as a godly wife (no easy feat to from self!) by the power of His spirit within and not speaking a word, I might convert my husband. Which (to keep a long story short) really meant walking in God's love, not judging nor condemning (for such things breed animosity.)
Many a night I laid my hands upon my husband as he slept and prayed for God to reveal Himself in a way that there would be no mistaking (in my husband's mind) that it was HIM.

God has a way of humbling, exalting and revealing Himself...many times the efforts of what one might "think" is the thing to do brings more harm than good...

I did not have NDE or OOBE, though my mind of flesh be dead, soul lost to found again IN HIM...though the path from there to here (entered in) was no walk in the park. It was an agonizing bringing to a dark night of soul...til the morning star arose in my heart...awakened.

Wow!!!!!

I am divorced two times and remarried for the third time. My first two ex-wives both attempted to strangle me, (wife number one, 1990 I think, and wife number two 1998, I think), but I had worked at forestry for two decades so I simply allowed them to strangle and strangle and strangle to their heart's content...........
but I knew that I knew that the level of bitterness and anger that both of them had could well lead them to return with a baseball bat or gun one of these times.........

so I made a judgement call and divorced the two of them....(the first one in 1991 and the second one in 1998 or 1999), and I did feel free to remarry in the year 2000. (I did attempt to go back with both of these ex-wives for a while but their same level of bitterness and off the scale anger manifested almost immediately), so I left again..... and made the separations and then divorces official.

Matthew 19:9

"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

(In our time and age.... sincerely attempted murder..... can it seems be added to the list of valid reasons to divorce somebody............, at least that is how I see it anyway.)

I feel that there is a calling on your husbands life that will astonish you..... His calling is probably going to turn out to be something like that of former Atheist Howard Storm.............. who in my opinion is changing the world.

This verse refers to your husband.... in spite of his many flaws..... he will end up loving both other people.... and God..... and you were used to TAME him!

Romans 2:26

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

PeaceJoyLove · Oct 18, 2017

DennisTate said:
Wow!!!!!

I am divorced two times and remarried for the third time. My first two ex-wives both attempted to strangle me, (wife number one, 1990 I think, and wife number two 1998, I think), but I had worked at forestry for two decades so I simply allowed them to strangle and strangle and strangle to their heart's content...........
but I knew that I knew that the level of bitterness and anger that both of them had could well lead them to return with a baseball bat or gun one of these times.........

so I made a judgement call and divorced the two of them....(the first one in 1991 and the second one in 1998 or 1999), and I did feel free to remarry in the year 2000. (I did attempt to go back with both of these ex-wives for a while but their same level of bitterness and off the scale anger manifested almost immediately), so I left again..... and made the separations and then divorces official.

Matthew 19:9

"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

(In our time and age.... sincerely attempted murder..... can it seems be added to the list of valid reasons to divorce somebody............, at least that is how I see it anyway.)

I feel that there is a calling on your husbands life that will astonish you..... His calling is probably going to turn out to be something like that of former Atheist Howard Storm.............. who in my opinion is changing the world.

This verse refers to your husband.... in spite of his many flaws..... he will end up loving both other people.... and God..... and you were used to TAME him!

Romans 2:26

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

The LORD is still working on him.

DennisTate · Oct 18, 2017

GingerBeer said:
That is correct. Never watched Netflix. The comment was superficial because God is light and in him is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5)

Your reasoning is accurate.... but the fact of your statement being true does not make the post by somebody else here superficial.

The fact that God puts nighttime before daytime.... in determining a day is an important point that has off the scale implications for a Christian during this lifetime.... vs when we are finally in heaven.

We are now in relative darkness in comparison to what we will know and understand within seconds of when we die.

Tayla · Nov 4, 2017

DennisTate said:
Did God exist from infinite time in the past?

God's nature includes his activities within his persons of the Trinity within time. Time is not outside of God for him to exist in. God shared some small part of his nature with us in creating a time-constrained universe with its accompanying spiritual realm.

DennisTate · Jan 20, 2018

jesus316 said:
God's nature includes his activities within his persons of the Trinity within time. Time is not outside of God for him to exist in. God shared some small part of his nature with us in creating a time-constrained universe with its accompanying spiritual realm.

Yes....

Jhn 5:20

For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater worksthan these, that ye may marvel.

DennisTate · Jun 9, 2018

Ken Rank said:
Why would an increasingly secular and unrighteous culture accept the idea of intelligent design being taught in state funded institutions? They won't... they will turn further and further from God until Yeshua comes. This is all written, man isn't the answer. What we need to do is find where God uses us in His plan and walk in that calling.

The answer to your question was...... (I believe) ... given by a doctor who was studying the transformative effect that near death experience accounts can have on people. Melvin Morse M. D., in his book, "Transformed By The Light".... referred to a study done on people who had recently attempted suicide........

One group was simply given near death experience accounts to read....... zero people from that group attempted suicide again during the duration of the study....... The Ph. d. conducting the study concluded that further research was needed to see if simply reading NDE accounts might switch somebody's thinking away from the mentality that led them to attempt suicide in the first place?????

A secondary question would be........ if simply reading NDE accounts can play an important role in treating suicidal behaviour patterns..... could they also be used in the treatment of drug or alcohol addiction?????

Ken Rank · Jun 9, 2018

I read this over and over trying to understand the connection you are making and it fails me. So please, take a moment and look at this. Your goal was that intelligent design is taught in schools. I replied by asking you why you thought state funded schools would teach such things... and you replied with information about near death experiences. That has "nothing" to do with your idea to teach intelligent design in the schools nor does it even remotely come close to addressing my reply. I don't get it....

DennisTate said:
my goal is to see an increase in understanding that can lead to a variation of Intelligent Design that can be taught in universities and schools and before that can happen it could be helpful if God's own people are not overly fearful of some good explanations for what happened over infinite time in the past.

Ken Rank said:
Why would an increasingly secular and unrighteous culture accept the idea of intelligent design being taught in state funded institutions? They won't... they will turn further and further from God until Yeshua comes. This is all written, man isn't the answer. What we need to do is find where God uses us in His plan and walk in that calling.

DennisTate said:
The answer to your question was...... (I believe) ... given by a doctor who was studying the transformative effect that near death experience accounts can have on people. Melvin Morse M. D., in his book, "Transformed By The Light".... referred to a study done on people who had recently attempted suicide........

One group was simply given near death experience accounts to read....... zero people from that group attempted suicide again during the duration of the study....... The Ph. d. conducting the study concluded that further research was needed to see if simply reading NDE accounts might switch somebody's thinking away from the mentality that led them to attempt suicide in the first place?????

A secondary question would be........ if simply reading NDE accounts can play an important role in treating suicidal behaviour patterns..... could they also be used in the treatment of drug or alcohol addiction?????

YHWH_will_uplift · Jun 9, 2018

Ken Rank said:
I read this over and over trying to understand the connection you are making and it fails me. So please, take a moment and look at this. Your goal was that intelligent design is taught in schools. I replied by asking you why you thought state funded schools would teach such things... and you replied with information about near death experiences. That has "nothing" to do with your idea to teach intelligent design in the schools nor does it even remotely come close to addressing my reply. I don't get it....

Hello brother! From what I could gather from reading Dennis' response to your question, he was stating that these people who read the accounts of those with near death experiences did not attempt suicide because of what happened in the lives of those who had NDE: therefore without him clearly finishing his thought he meant to make the point that this could also lead in people changing their behavior and beliefs about God if people simply read the Bible: this was hinted in his closing question about people not being alcohol or drug addicts if they read the accounts of what happened to other addicts.

SkyWriting · Jun 9, 2018

DennisTate said:
Did God exist from infinite time in the past?

God still exists outside of "time" as we know it.
"Eternal" is close.

YHWH_will_uplift · Jun 9, 2018

As I re read the title of this thread...why does this thread have so many pages with unrelated responses to time? Lol!

To answer the questions, "Is God Infinitely Ancient?" And, "Did God exist from infinite time in the past?" We must look at the very beginning of the Bible for the answers:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".
-Genesis 1:1

The first three words indicate that time was created: therefore before time was created only eternity existed: therefore God is eternal and His dwelling place is from eternity to eternity. And a clear distinction must be made between time and eternity; finite and infinite. Time has three characteristics:

1) Beginning
2) Middle
3) End

Eternity does not have any of these characteristics: therefore time does not equal eternity nor does eternity equal time. And this same logic applies to finite and infinite: for everything subjected to time is given a beginning, a middle, and an end. So why does God refer to Himself as the Ancient of Days? And why does He refer to Himself as the Beginning and the End? Since we already proved that God is eternal we know that He is not referring to Himself as being temporal or finite. Instead God is stating that He is the Beginning and End of all things: therefore He will exist from the first day to the last day. Adam lived seventy years short of one thousand years therefore:

1,000 Years × 360 Days = 360,000 Days
0,930 Years × 360 Days = 334,800 Days

Either of the equations above would qualify God as the Ancient of Days just within the first one thousand years of man's history. If we multiply further:

6,000 Years × 360 Days = 2,160,000 Days
7,000 Years × 360 Days = 2,520,000 Days

In conclusion this evidence proves that time is not eternal nor infinite: therefore God is not infinitely ancient nor did He exist in the infinite past: for He has no beginning, middle, nor end.

SkyWriting · Jun 9, 2018

YHWH_will_uplift said:
As I re read the title of this thread...why does this thread have so many pages with unrelated responses to time? Lol!

To answer the questions, "Is God Infinitely Ancient?" And, "Did God exist from infinite time in the past?" We must look at the very beginning of the Bible for the answers:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".
-Genesis 1:1

The first three words indicate that time was created: therefore before time was created only eternity existed: therefore God is eternal and His dwelling place is from eternity to eternity. And a clear distinction must be made between time and eternity; finite and infinite. Time has three characteristics:

1) Beginning
2) Middle
3) End

Eternity does not have any of these characteristics: therefore time does not equal eternity nor does eternity equal time. And this same logic applies to finite and infinite: for everything subjected to time is given a beginning, a middle, and an end. So why does God refer to Himself as the Ancient of Days? And why does He refer to Himself as the Beginning and the End? Since we already proved that God is eternal we know that He is not referring to Himself as being temporal or finite. Instead God is stating that He is the Beginning and End of all things: therefore He will exist from the first day to the last day. Adam lived seventy years short of one thousand years therefore:

1,000 Years × 360 Days = 360,000 Days
0,930 Years × 360 Days = 334,800 Days

Either of the equations above would qualify God as the Ancient of Days just within the first one thousand years of man's history. If we multiply further:

6,000 Years × 360 Days = 2,160,000 Days
7,000 Years × 360 Days = 2,520,000 Days

In conclusion this evidence proves that time is not eternal nor infinite: therefore God is not infinitely ancient nor did He exist in the infinite past: for He has no beginning, middle, nor end.

God does not experience time.
It is simply a delay in our deserved instant death.

YHWH_will_uplift · Jun 9, 2018

SkyWriting said:
God does not experience time.
It is simply a delay in our deserved instant death.

Does God need to be subject to time in order to experience time? Put another way, can God experience time without being subject to time?

SkyWriting · Jun 9, 2018

YHWH_will_uplift said:
Does God need to be subject to time in order to experience time? Put another way, can God experience time without being subject to time?

Jesus did. Not the Father.

YHWH_will_uplift · Jun 9, 2018

SkyWriting said:
Jesus did. Not the Father.

Yes Jesus was subjected to having time when He lived in the earth. Does God have to subject Himself to time in order to experience the passage of time?

Bobber · Jun 9, 2018

YHWH_will_uplift said:
Does God need to be subject to time in order to experience time? Put another way, can God experience time without being subject to time?

Maybe we can put the question this way....Can God play Chess and Checkers at the same time? Two boards on the table. Chess being thought of as a higher dimensional playing game with more potential then the basic lower dimensional or less potential game of Checkers.

Is God infinitely ancient?

Did God exist from infinite time in the past?

Yes.....

No.....

I am not sure.... but this is an interesting question.

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