Is God infinitely ancient?

YHWH_will_uplift · Oct 16, 2017

Saved.By.Grace said:
are you saying that the days in Genesis chapter 1 are literal 24 hour days, or 7 periods of time?

Genesis only mentions them as seven periods of time. It does not define the length of the day. The only two places where the hours of day and night at mentioned are 1) John 11:9 2) 1 Adam and Eve 13:10

"Thus, O Adam, has this night deceived thee. It is not to last for ever; but is only of twelve hours; when it is over, daylight will return."

Now as to how this was accomplished Genesis 1:14-19 tell us to use the lights in the sky to tell the time. When using a sundial there will always be twelve points which one may mark the hours throughout the day (i.e. the time between sunrise and sunset). As for the night you track the time by the stars as they rotate around Polaris (North Star): for one can only view twelve constellations in the heavens. For those who don't have the ability to track the time with the methods above simply use any watch and coin the hours between sunrise and sunset and you will always have twelve hours; for the darkness count from sunset to sunrise and you will always have twelve hours. Now since God separated the Light from the Darkness a day is only 12 Hours in length and the Night is only 12 Hours in length: therefore you will only have 1 Day and 1 Night. In modern terms this would equate to Sunday and Sunday Night; Monday and Monday Night etc. It was not until Babylon and Egpyt that the day and night periods became mixed. And It wasn't until Greece that a uniform 24 Hour day became standard and spread through the world: thanks to Babylon we mix what God separated from the beginning.

YHWH_will_uplift · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
I honestly don't quite understand this but......
I have a challenge for you Sir!

Please begin to pray about you..... being an actor.... playing the role of yourself....... as a Falasha Jew but the year is 1939 and you end up on the M. S. St. Louis.

You are turned away from Cuba...... turned away from Florida but.......
Dr. Moses Coady organizes the fishermen of Canso and Port Bickerton, Liscombe and Ecum Secum to take their lobster boats out to Sable Island..... to meet the M. S. St Louis where she is mired in the sand bars of Sable Island.

This is an example off applied Multiverse Theory.....

The Philosophical implications of Multiverse Theory?

Genesis 1:1-2:3 establishes the fact that we have seven days in a week because God worked the first six days of the week and rested on the seventh day of the week. Since the heavenly lights were created on the fourth day of the week that would make it the first day of the year...364 Days later would bring us back to the starting point of creation.

aiki · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
Can five acres of reasonably fertile land feed, improve and even save the lives or one to five or more humans?

Yes.... I think so.... so there is some logic for this prediction and its possible implications in a crisis that seems to be facing our neighbour America.........

I wasn't referring to your ideas about land, but about God, and infinite time, and human value.

Lee Stuvmen · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
But.... can God rejoice in His creation?

Can God have fun........ creating?

If God is having fun...... isn't God being affected by his creation?

You seriously don't think God is crying His eyes out?

7 billion people on planet earth.

ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE,

Satan has deceived them all(except us, right?)

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

DECEIVE -
:to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid

WHOLE -
: complete or full : not lacking or leaving out any part

WORLD -
:the inhabitants of the earth :the human race

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,

which cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid

not lacking or leaving out any part of :the inhabitants of the earth :the human race:

he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Do you really think God is having fun?

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:

YHWH_will_uplift · Oct 16, 2017

Lee Stuvmen said:
You seriously don't think God is crying His eyes out?

7 billion people on planet earth.

ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE,

Satan has deceived them all(except us, right?)

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

DECEIVE -
:to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid

WHOLE -
: complete or full : not lacking or leaving out any part

WORLD -
:the inhabitants of the earth :the human race

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,

which cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid

not lacking or leaving out any part of :the inhabitants of the earth :the human race:

he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Do you really think God is having fun?

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:

I believe Dennis was making the point that God is not limited to feeling one emotion all of the time. That He can be and is happy just as when He feels other emotions. In Proverbs 8 Wisdom tells us that She was beside God in every step of the creation week and, that God was delighted in Her constantly.

elliott95 · Oct 16, 2017

My vote is no.
I don't think time is infinite. God created time too.
Alpha and Omega.
Beginning and End.

YHWH_will_uplift · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
Did God exist from infinite time in the past?

If so.... what was God doing?

There is a saying that "It's the economy s.....!" This question actually
has a relationship with the economy and money because...... .if.....
God existed from eternity in the past and if God..........
actually planned, engineered and choreographed an essentially infinite
number of Big Bang type events......(they might actually might have been more
like a Big Flash though)...... .then..... investing infinite time in the past in the
creation........ could make the creation infinitely valuable to God.......
but we humans are so young...... that we place relatively low value on our
lives and even less value on the lives of others...... and even less value than that
on the lives of animals, birds, fish and plants.

You know I always wondered what was meant by the title The Ancient of Days...thoughts?

MyGivenNameIsKeith · Oct 16, 2017

DennisTate said:
Did God exist from infinite time in the past?

If so.... what was God doing?

There is a saying that "It's the economy s.....!" This question actually
has a relationship with the economy and money because...... .if.....
God existed from eternity in the past and if God..........
actually planned, engineered and choreographed an essentially infinite
number of Big Bang type events......(they might actually might have been more
like a Big Flash though)...... .then..... investing infinite time in the past in the
creation........ could make the creation infinitely valuable to God.......
but we humans are so young...... that we place relatively low value on our
lives and even less value on the lives of others...... and even less value than that
on the lives of animals, birds, fish and plants.

God exists from everlasting to everlasting. He always has and always will. Time is meaningless to the one who created it. Time itself is clay to him as he is the potter. He views time from outside of time, not from inside it like we do. But he understands everything and knows the thoughts and intents of your heart. Beware of science falsely so called, turn to him. Work on your relationship with him. The beginning of knowledge is the fear of the LORD and to depart from evil is understanding.

Noxot · Oct 17, 2017

time is a state of being. I don't think there is an end to the beginnings and ends that God made. theoretically there could be an infinite amount of souls being born in innumerable universes. spirit/eternity is a greater reality which contains what we think of as time and probably other types of time as well. I think that souls might have their own kind of time or that time will become more complex as we continue to exist.

something could be infinitely expanding in God and still be contained by God since God himself gives it his life. on one side of the coin I see eternity and on the other countless eons of beginnings and ends which is what I think the ancient of days refers to. the days being eons of times and places and experiences which God has been giving birth to for ????.... I don't know how to say because God gives birth to times itself and orders them all as he pleases.

DennisTate · Oct 17, 2017

YHWH_will_uplift said:
You know I always wondered what was meant by the title The Ancient of Days...thoughts?

At this time I lean heavily toward there being much that we can learn about God from String Theory that has been explained at high school level English.

M-Theory is based on there being a minimum of eleven dimensions of space - time.

Until God invented Space, time did not actually exist. Time only comes into existence when space has already been created.

So did time begin in some form as soon as God had formed the tenth dimension?

Or did it not exist until the ninth dimension was formed.

Dr. George Ritchie reports being show several higher dimensions of space time during his 1943 brush with death. His account greatly helped to get me out of the belief in the almost certainly false doctrine of "soul sleep."

What Dr. George Ritchie reported about the highest dimensions, in my opinion, gives us some excellent ideas on what Messiah Yeshua -Jesus explained about paradise and the kingdom of heaven.

.near-death.com/experiences/notable/george-ritchie.html

f. His Vision of the Heavenly City

Ritchie is then taken into outer space toward a distant city made of brilliant light - similar in description to the heavenly city in the Book of Revelation (see also Revelation 21:10-27.) This is the place where people go who have become like Jesus while on Earth - a place where love is the dominant focus of life. This is heaven he realizes; but he is not allowed to enter it. Instead, Jesus shows him the future of Earth and is told to return to his physical body. At this point, Ritchie is revived from death.

Ken Rank · Oct 17, 2017

DennisTate said:
Did God exist from infinite time in the past?

If so.... what was God doing?

Here is, what I believe to be, the bottom line here.

The "what was God doing" is a great fireside discussion but, regardless of any theory presented, will have no proof to back it. It then becomes a fun discussion, one to get us thinking, but one that has no impact on anything because we simply have no evidence for anything.

The question, "Did God exist from infinite time in the past" is kind of misleading. While I realize what you are trying to do here, the idea of "infinite" and "time" stand as well together as Jumbo Shrimp, Hell's Angels, or Military Intelligence... it is somewhat of an oxymoron. God's name declares His eternal nature. The Hebrew letters Yod Hay Vav Hay (usually written in English as YHWH or YHVH) literally mean, "I am, I was, I will be." In other words, "I always was and always will be." That removes "time" as we know it from the equation and words like "beginning" and "end" become more idiomatic then literal. Thus, "time" becomes irrelevant for a God who is timeless.

So then... based on the rest of your Opening Post (OP) I would say, FOR ME.... that this topic might create some fun discussion but that what we are called to do is learn of His way and expectations (calling) for our lives and then walk in that path. We each have a job to do, work for the sake of the Kingdom and that work involves teaching, supporting, or otherwise edifying others.

DennisTate · Oct 17, 2017

YHWH_will_uplift said:
I believe Dennis was making the point that God is not limited to feeling one emotion all of the time. That He can be and is happy just as when He feels other emotions. In Proverbs 8 Wisdom tells us that She was beside God in every step of the creation week and, that God was delighted in Her constantly.

Thank you for that chapter. I was attempting to find those verses yesterday but forgot what chapter they were in.

Until the revolt of Lucifer and a third of the angels with him there would be zero pain and suffering but......... God would be observing as Lucifer used accusation and slander to turn the understanding of those one third of the angels.

I think that I should start a separate poll on this topic as well:

The revolt of Lucifer / Satan?

SBC · Oct 17, 2017

DennisTate said:
Did God exist from infinite time in the past?

If so.... what was God doing?

There is a saying that "It's the economy s.....!" This question actually
has a relationship with the economy and money because...... .if.....
God existed from eternity in the past and if God..........
actually planned, engineered and choreographed an essentially infinite
number of Big Bang type events......(they might actually might have been more
like a Big Flash though)...... .then..... investing infinite time in the past in the
creation........ could make the creation infinitely valuable to God.......
but we humans are so young...... that we place relatively low value on our
lives and even less value on the lives of others...... and even less value than that
on the lives of animals, birds, fish and plants.

God is without beginning.

What was He doing? Authoring and Watching beforehand what every man sees and hears in his own day of physical existence.

God Bless,
SBC

DennisTate · Oct 17, 2017

Ken Rank said:
Here is, what I believe to be, the bottom line here.

The "what was God doing" is a great fireside discussion but, regardless of any theory presented, will have no proof to back it. It then becomes a fun discussion, one to get us thinking, but one that has no impact on anything because we simply have no evidence for anything.

The question, "Did God exist from infinite time in the past" is kind of misleading. While I realize what you are trying to do here, the idea of "infinite" and "time" stand as well together as Jumbo Shrimp, Hell's Angels, or Military Intelligence... it is somewhat of an oxymoron. God's name declares His eternal nature. The Hebrew letters Yod Hay Vav Hay (usually written in English as YHWH or YHVH) literally mean, "I am, I was, I will be." In other words, "I always was and always will be." That removes "time" as we know it from the equation and words like "beginning" and "end" become more idiomatic then literal. Thus, "time" becomes irrelevant for a God who is timeless.

So then... based on the rest of your Opening Post (OP) I would say, FOR ME.... that this topic might create some fun discussion but that what we are called to do is learn of His way and expectations (calling) for our lives and then walk in that path. We each have a job to do, work for the sake of the Kingdom and that work involves teaching, supporting, or otherwise edifying others.

Well said Ken......
YHWH invented time....... and would exist for something close to eternity even before the invention of time at all like we think of it........
but I think that this is an important idea for us to think about because
the admonition of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to The Scribes and Pharisees is more relevant to us now than we might at first think.

John 8:44

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

The revolt of Lucifer / Satan?

Dr. Richard Eby:

Jesus paused again.

"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed 'adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony 'sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!"
(Dr. Richard Eby, near-death .com)

I am of the belief that Lucifer / Satan being so much younger than YHWH holds a major key to understanding his revolt........ and our own partial revolts that we do pretty much daily.

When we were young we would take serious risks with cars and motorcycles because we had little appreciation for how much work went into forming these bodies that we had been given to us by God. A better appreciation of how the Ancient of Days the Father has been moving and working and inventing and creating from eternity in the past can give us a greater appreciation for these bodies and all that we have been given.

DennisTate · Oct 17, 2017

SBC said:
God is without beginning.

What was He doing? Authoring and Watching beforehand what every man sees and hears in his own day of physical existence.

God Bless,
SBC

I agree......
but there could well be even more to this because a powerful case can be presented
that God.... has probably invented duplicates of you and I who exist in multiple time lines each of which
are a significant fulfillment of Ezekiel chapter 37.

I strongly suspect that God is leading more and more and more and more of the unsaved to salvation..... in non-linear time.

Matthew 11: 20 -24"
"Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

"But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."

Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.

DennisTate · Oct 17, 2017

Noxot said:
time is a state of being. I don't think there is an end to the beginnings and ends that God made. theoretically there could be an infinite amount of souls being born in innumerable universes. spirit/eternity is a greater reality which contains what we think of as time and probably other types of time as well. I think that souls might have their own kind of time or that time will become more complex as we continue to exist.

something could be infinitely expanding in God and still be contained by God since God himself gives it his life. on one side of the coin I see eternity and on the other countless eons of beginnings and ends which is what I think the ancient of days refers to. the days being eons of times and places and experiences which God has been giving birth to for ????.... I don't know how to say because God gives birth to times itself and orders them all as he pleases.

Yes.... that is exactly what I believe is implied by the promises given to Abraham.

Genesis 22:17

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;"

Ken Rank · Oct 17, 2017

DennisTate said:
Well said Ken......
YHWH invented time....... and would exist for something close to eternity even before the invention of time at all like we think of it........
but I think that this is an important idea for us to think about because
the admonition of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to The Scribes and Pharisees is more relevant to us now than we might at first think.

John 8:44

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Time is the result of creation. The Earth rotates once and we have a day. The moon orbits the Earth once and we have a month. The Earth orbits the Sun once and we have a year, and so forth. Everything we have that determines "time" is the result of something God created... and He existed before that point. He is outside of time and that is simply a line that few can really grasp because "time" is so ingrained into our "born into" paradigm.

Satan, on the other hand, is not outside of time. He, like the markers which tell time, were created and therefore can have a "beginning." So when words like "beginning" or "foundations" are used, that is in reference to a point in history marked by time (in this case, Genesis 1) but God existed before then. He can interact within time and space, but is beyond both because He created both.

DennisTate said:
I am of the belief that Lucifer / Satan being so much younger than YHWH holds a major key to understanding his revolt........ and our own partial revolts that we do pretty much daily.

Respectfully Dennis, my brother... this statement is somewhat bewildering to me! If God is outside of time... if time is the result of that which God created and He has ALWAYS EXISTED... then even the word "younger" (as used above) is oxymoronic and shouldn't even be a consideration here. Satan is a created being thus time is relevant to him as it is all of creation. But time is not relevant to an eternal being. Thus words like, "younger" or "older" are not appropriate comparisons to God because they denote TIME. Satan is older than you, my son is younger than you, but God is and always has been which removes the concept of time altogether.

This is why I said this can be a fun discussion, but ultimately we are better to concentrate on what we can do to be a light to an increasingly dark world.

DennisTate · Oct 17, 2017

MyGivenNameIsKeith said:
God exists from everlasting to everlasting. He always has and always will. Time is meaningless to the one who created it. Time itself is clay to him as he is the potter. He views time from outside of time, not from inside it like we do. But he understands everything and knows the thoughts and intents of your heart. Beware of science falsely so called, turn to him. Work on your relationship with him. The beginning of knowledge is the fear of the LORD and to depart from evil is understanding.

Good points.....
but if the fall of Lucifer was partly caused by his relative youth in comparison to God all of us can
learn something important by developing a deeper appreciation of what we can now understand about how God has been working from infinite time in the past to create all that we see....... and so much more that we cannot even imagine yet.

In chapter 13 of Stephen Hawking's Universe, Dr. Hawking explains the Cyclic Model of the Universe... .that sounds surprisingly similar to what a former Atheist who had a near death experience reports:

Mellen Benedict: "At this point of my near-death experience, I found myself in a profound stillness, beyond all silence. I could see or perceive FOREVER, beyond Infinity. I was in the Void.

I was in pre creation, before the Big Bang. I had crossed over the beginning of time / the First Word/the First vibration. I was in the Eye of Creation. I felt as if I was touching the Face of God. It was not a religious feeling. Simply I was at one with Absolute Life and Consciousness. When I say that I could see or perceive forever, I mean that I could experience all of creation generating itself. It was without beginning and without end. That’s a mind-expanding thought, isn’t it? Scientists perceive the Big Bang as a single event that created the Universe. I saw during my life after death experience that the Big Bang is only one of an infinite number of Big Bangs creating Universes endlessly and simultaneously. The only images that even come close in human terms would be those created by super computers using fractal geometry equations." (Mellen Benedict, near-death .com)

Lee Stuvmen · Oct 17, 2017

YHWH_will_uplift said:
I believe Dennis was making the point that God is not limited to feeling one emotion all of the time. That He can be and is happy just as when He feels other emotions. In Proverbs 8 Wisdom tells us that She was beside God in every step of the creation week and, that God was delighted in Her constantly.

Does not wisdom cry(also)?

Who can hear the voice of wisdom?

IF the Bible is 100% truth, and Satan has caused the whole(lacking no part) world(the human race) to be deceived(accepts was is invalid as valid);

Who can or HAS heard Wisdom's voice?

DennisTate · Oct 17, 2017

Ken Rank said:
Time is the result of creation. The Earth rotates once and we have a day. The moon orbits the Earth once and we have a month. The Earth orbits the Sun once and we have a year, and so forth. Everything we have that determines "time" is the result of something God created... and He existed before that point. He is outside of time and that is simply a line that few can really grasp because "time" is so ingrained into our "born into" paradigm.

Satan, on the other hand, is not outside of time. He, like the markers which tell time, were created and therefore can have a "beginning." So when words like "beginning" or "foundations" are used, that is in reference to a point in history marked by time (in this case, Genesis 1) but God existed before then. He can interact within time and space, but is beyond both because He created both.

Respectfully Dennis, my brother... this statement is somewhat bewildering to me! If God is outside of time... if time is the result of that which God created and He has ALWAYS EXISTED... then even the word "younger" (as used above) is oxymoronic and shouldn't even be a consideration here. Satan is a created being thus time is relevant to him as it is all of creation. But time is not relevant to an eternal being. Thus words like, "younger" or "older" are not appropriate comparisons to God because they denote TIME. Satan is older than you, my son is younger than you, but God is and always has been which removes the concept of time altogether.

This is why I said this can be a fun discussion, but ultimately we are better to concentrate on what we can do to be a light to an increasingly dark world.

True.......
but that breath of life that YHWH breathed into Adam and Eve may have had more to it than we might at first imagine........

You may find the quotation here intriguing:

Is God infinitely ancient?

Is God infinitely ancient?

Did God exist from infinite time in the past?

Yes.....

No.....

I am not sure.... but this is an interesting question.

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