Is God evil?

[romor24]

Wait, now im confused again...

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Wait, now im confused again...

Welcome to my world . I'm still waiting for a reply from RyanLeeParis... .

 

[Tynan]

Sin is the absence of God and evil is the absence of good. If God created everything then God created evil, nothing can start on its own including evil, it has to start from somewhere.

If the devil started sin in the Garden of Eden because he was jealous of God, then who created the devil? God did. If God created the devil he created all of the devil's actions and had them planed out. He had to have created the devil's jealously within him for it to have the devil tempt Adam and Eve. Therefore he created evil witch lead to sin. Therefore god isn't perfect and is evil.

This confuses me to no end... Please help with a way to prove this wrong

You're getting there !

Slowly, but surely, it's coming into focus, you strike me as someone who is starting to engage their innate rational intelligence.

The one thing I would advise when seeking to establish a honest answer to a difficult question is not to come to the question with what you already think is the answer, and then seek (at all intellectual cost) to make that answer fit ("Please help with a way to prove this wrong").

Good luck.

 

[Zebra1552]

Sin is the absence of God and evil is the absence of good. If God created everything then God created evil, nothing can start on its own including evil, it has to start from somewhere.

If the devil started sin in the Garden of Eden because he was jealous of God, then who created the devil? God did. If God created the devil he created all of the devil's actions and had them planed out. He had to have created the devil's jealously within him for it to have the devil tempt Adam and Eve. Therefore he created evil witch lead to sin. Therefore god isn't perfect and is evil.

This confuses me to no end... Please help with a way to prove this wrong

Sorry if this is in the wrong section and about my bad grammar... (if i confused you in any way, if so tell me which part confuses you the most)

God created all the angels including Satan, yes. God also gave them free will just like he gave us free will. Just because God foresaw Satan's rebellion and actions does not mean God is responsible for causing it. It would be like blaming the cops for people breaking the speed limit because they knew the rule would be broken beforehand. It doesn't make sense.
And before you can say 'well, isn't God all powerful?', think about it. If God gave man free will, is it possible for God to do anything, or has God limited himself by giving man free will? Does such self limitation (I'd call it discipline or self control) make Him unable to do things? Does the ability and refusal to make a dictated utopia make God evil? I don't believe so. I believe trying to force something as beautiful as love and a relationship would be evil.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

God created all the angels including Satan, yes. God also gave them free will just like he gave us free will. Just because God foresaw Satan's rebellion and actions does not mean God is responsible for causing it. It would be like blaming the cops for people breaking the speed limit because they knew the rule would be broken beforehand. It doesn't make sense.
And before you can say 'well, isn't God all powerful?', think about it. If God gave man free will, is it possible for God to do anything, or has God limited himself by giving man free will? Does such self limitation (I'd call it discipline or self control) make Him unable to do things? Does the ability and refusal to make a dictated utopia make God evil? I don't believe so. I believe trying to force something as beautiful as love and a relationship would be evil.

If God created someone or something with the foreknowledge that it would cause suffering, then God is culpable. Just like if you let a let a rabid dog loose among school children. You didn't bite the children, but you're responsible.

And God could have created us with freewill and the predisposition to never cause suffering.

 

[Zebra1552]

If God created someone or something with the foreknowledge that it would cause suffering, then God is culpable. Just like if you let a let a rabid dog loose among school children. You didn't bite the children, but you're responsible.

And God could have created us with freewill and the predisposition to never cause suffering.

He did create us with that predisposition: He created us without sin. Using your rabid dog analogy, He didn't let the dog loose, he created the dog.

 

[The Nihilist]

He did create us with that predisposition: He created us without sin. Using your rabid dog analogy, He didn't let the dog loose, he created the dog.

God basically put a bunch of toddlers in a house full of matches, and then spanked them all when it burned down. If he's our father, then the neighbors should have called DFACS

 

[Judgment]

Sin is the absence of God and evil is the absence of good. If God created everything then God created evil, nothing can start on its own including evil, it has to start from somewhere.

If the devil started sin in the Garden of Eden because he was jealous of God, then who created the devil? God did. If God created the devil he created all of the devil's actions and had them planed out. He had to have created the devil's jealously within him for it to have the devil tempt Adam and Eve. Therefore he created evil witch lead to sin. Therefore god isn't perfect and is evil.

This confuses me to no end... Please help with a way to prove this wrong

Sorry if this is in the wrong section and about my bad grammar... (if i confused you in any way, if so tell me which part confuses you the most)

Sin did not start in the garden. Sin is not the begining of God in Christ, God in Christ has no end.

God in Christs offers liberty, freedom and justice for all and is sustaining the meaning of life, love. The love of God in Christ established liberty and is the risen body and blood of Yahshua. God in Christs is offering freedom, freedom is love. Love must be confirmed by the image of Yahshua among the numbered Saints as a witness in agreement. It is not just to proclaim the name of God in Christs to be sustaining Lucifer and sin. Mercy is not offered by Lucifer, it is the risen Word, Yahshua, proclaiming Truth and not confirming Lucifer.

Yahshua is the key witness offering the Truth and salvation to the Bride that is chosen by the Truth, the love of God in Christ offering the gift of life, liberty, freedom and justice for all. The knowledge of sin is pointless and void, God offering the sustaining Truth is perfect love.

Corruption is just bearing false witness and the revelation of the Holy Spirit is overcoming it. Sin shall perish when order is restored, order is restored upon death and in the presence of God in Christ the fullness of time shall be known without sin, sin shall be sealed as in the beginning.

Lucifer represents absence, not presence. The Truth is, the love of God in Christs is perfect, everything Yahshua is ...is defining perfect mercy, salvation and love.

The measure of time given unto the fallen is short, a twinkling of an eye.

The labor we are experiencing is just part of being born from the dust of the Earth. Persons that abort the love of God in Christ abort the Truth, life, liberty, freedom and justice and though Lucifer was risen and the dust is risen as a man that shall perish and return to the void, the Bride that is sustained and confirmed in agreement with the Groom, shall remain risen. The dead in Christ that sleep shall be wakened. Not all shall sleep and upon the great and terrible day of judgment the whole Truth is risen in agreement.

Yahshua offers agreement, Lucifer and man are free to disagree with life, liberty, justice and the love of God in Christs, that is not a mystery, it's the revelation of the gift of life.

Lucifer just rejected being sustained, Lucifer rejected being risen and that is not a deception by Yahshua or a temptation offered by Yahshua.

The Love of God in Christ proclaims the offer of life and never offered deception or temptation, God in Christ is the first and the last.

The void is not risen first, Lucifer did not come first and shall perish, that is not a mystery.

See that you consider not the offer of Lucifer, Lucifer is just a measure of time, the shadow in the valley. When order is restored and corruption and death has ended, there shall only be the pure glory of God in Christ, no shadow shall stand. The Light shall not sustain darkness. The full love, presence and glory shall be revealed and we shall for ever remain in agreement.

The Truth is not a choice and it never changes. Yahshua stands fasts and is doing no harm.

 

[Infernalfist]

call me ignorant, but judgment, i don't think you helped in any way. spewing dogma onto a forum isn't going to help someone come to terms with their own doubts. it is said in the bible that you can tell the nature of someone by the quality of the "fruit" they produce. by those standards, the god that comes from ancient middle eastern teachings is in fact evil. all you have to do is take a look at time when it was assumed that the teachings of the bible were ruling the world. the churches were torturing, raping, murdering, stealing, and all manner of unnatural and horrible things. religious followers even now are isolating, harassing, belittling, and even threatening people who do not agree with them.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

He did create us with that predisposition: He created us without sin. Using your rabid dog analogy, He didn't let the dog loose, he created the dog.

That doesn't work. Unless you deny the Christian god's omniscience, this god knew when he created us what would happen. He could have created us both without sin and incorruptible, but all it took was a stupid snake to screw that up. No, this god purposely created a situation that lead to the evils in the world.

In my analogy, he created the dog with the ability to get rabies, he created rabies, he allowed the dog to get rabies and he allowed the rabid dog to get loose.

That's culpability right there...

 

[Zebra1552]

God basically put a bunch of toddlers in a house full of matches, and then spanked them all when it burned down. If he's our father, then the neighbors should have called DFACS

Oh, so you can show that God created in mankind a tendency towards sin? Please, be my guest. Genesis says they started out sinless and blameless and innocent.

 

[Zebra1552]

That doesn't work. Unless you deny the Christian god's omniscience, this god knew when he created us what would happen. He could have created us both without sin and incorruptible, but all it took was a stupid snake to screw that up. No, this god purposely created a situation that lead to the evils in the world.

Again, that negates free will. Without free will, mankind cannot be genuinely and legitimately good.

In my analogy, he created the dog with the ability to get rabies, he created rabies, he allowed the dog to get rabies and he allowed the rabid dog to get loose.

That's culpability right there...

Disagree with the theology and doctrine all you like, but God did not directly create sin- God created the means by which it eventually came (Satan), which is not the same as creating it. If you have a kid who randomly goes off and smacks someone, you're not going to go saying the parents were responsible for the other kid's pain.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Again, that negates free will. Without free will, mankind cannot be genuinely and legitimately good.

It doesn't negate free will at all. The ability to choose is what defines free will. Not whether or not we do choose.

Here's a thought experiment:

If you present me with two plates, plate A has one of my favorite foods and plate B is a plate of dog feces, and tell me to choose one to eat, I'll choose plate A. If you repeat this experiment every day of my life, ceteris paribus, I'll always choose plate A. If someone comes up to me and says that plate B will give me magic powers if I eat it, I'll ignore that person and choose A anyway.

Does this mean I have no free will in this instance, since I will never choose plate B? Of course not, because I have the ability to choose plate B, but never will.

God could have created us with the ability to choose evil but never with the desire, and without the inclination to be swayed by talking snakes. We still would have had free will.

Disagree with the theology and doctrine all you like, but God did not directly create sin- God created the means by which it eventually came (Satan), which is not the same as creating it. If you have a kid who randomly goes off and smacks someone, you're not going to go saying the parents were responsible for the other kid's pain.

God created Satan knowing what Satan would do. That makes god culpable for what Satan does, because god doesn't stop it.

In your example, if the parents know the kid is going to smack someone (god is omniscient remember), and they don't stop it (god is omnipotent remember), then of course the parents are culpable for what the kid does.

I'm afraid you're not going to be able to come up with a satisfactory answer on this one...

 

[The Nihilist]

Oh, so you can show that God created in mankind a tendency towards sin? Please, be my guest. Genesis says they started out sinless and blameless and innocent.

He expected them to be good without knowledge of good and evil. Again, toddlers, matches, spankings.

 

[Judgment]

call me ignorant, but judgment, i don't think you helped in any way. spewing dogma onto a forum isn't going to help someone come to terms with their own doubts. it is said in the bible that you can tell the nature of someone by the quality of the "fruit" they produce. by those standards, the god that comes from ancient middle eastern teachings is in fact evil. all you have to do is take a look at time when it was assumed that the teachings of the bible were ruling the world. the churches were torturing, raping, murdering, stealing, and all manner of unnatural and horrible things. religious followers even now are isolating, harassing, belittling, and even threatening people who do not agree with them.

Your offer is in contempt, Yahshua is not ''dogma'' ''doubts'', Yahshua is the body and blood of salvation and mercy, the first fruit of God in Christ is the sustaining fruit of life, love. You and I did not produce the first fruit and the ''quality'' of our rags is evil.

Those ''standard'' of man and Lucifer do not define Yahshua. The evil that man and Lucifer offer is an attempt to preserve power and authority upon the Earth above the offer of the Truth, life, freedom, liberty and justice. The corruption of man and Lucifer is obvious, Yahshua defined this well on the cross. Yahshua stands fast and does no harm and is the offer of love, not corruption. Yahshua is not ''torturing'' ''raping'' ''murdering'' ''stealing'' ''isolating'' ''harassing'' ''belittling'' or ''threatening'', Yahshua is offering and defining the exact opposite of contempt offered by Lucifer and all that are so deceived. Agreement is not a choice, the Truth is not a choice, the Truth stands fast and does no harm. The sustaining Truth is risen, it is the body and blood of God in Christs, the Holy Spirit standing fast among the numbered Saints.

My friend, you are not ignorant, you know the Truth is not a choice and the meaning of life is love. The contempt we are subject to cannot overcome us, it has no power or authority. We must not be tempted to be in possession of contempt, we must let go of contempt and accept the fist fruit, the perfect love and mercy of God in Christs, we must not perish but be reconciled and in agreement we shall be sustained by the power and authority of God in Christ. Those who seek to save their life shall lose it. In order to be risen, contempt must perish, there is no darkness in the Light, the Glory of the Truth, the love of God in Christ.

Fear not my friend, the judgment of man shall perish, the love of God in Christ is risen in agreement.

 

[Judgment]

That doesn't work. Unless you deny the Christian god's omniscience, this god knew when he created us what would happen. He could have created us both without sin and incorruptible, but all it took was a stupid snake to screw that up. No, this god purposely created a situation that lead to the evils in the world.

In my analogy, he created the dog with the ability to get rabies, he created rabies, he allowed the dog to get rabies and he allowed the rabid dog to get loose.

That's culpability right there...

Life, freedom, liberty and justice is the offer of God in Christs. Persons that reject their own life, freedom, liberty and persons that reject justice, they do not represent any of these things, they represent a new world order principality and shall perish according to their absence of these things. Contempt is not risen, freedom is risen, liberty is risen and justice is risen.

Life is the gift of God risen in Christ. Freedom is not a prison, it is the Truth. Liberty is the fullness of life and justice confirms all in agreement with Yahshua, the gift of God in Christ.

Fear not my friend, the dogs of war are not risen, Yahshua is not a dog and does not have rabies. The corruption upon the Earth did not exists until Lucifer offered judgment as a claim of dominion, Love is not a prison, the lack of life, liberty or justice, it is the reality and revelation. When you witness the dogs of war, you witness the defeat of Lucifer and the deception of man, not the image of God in Christ. Lucifer is culpable, Yahshua is not convicted by contempt, Yahshua overcame contempt and is the risen body in agreement with the Holy Spirit sustaining the image of Love, Truth does not change and does not offer contempt but, freedom from it.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

Sin is the absence of God and evil is the absence of good.

Where does the idea that sin is the absence of god come from?

Gota specific quote?

 

[Judgment]

It doesn't negate free will at all. The ability to choose is what defines free will. Not whether or not we do choose.

Here's a thought experiment:

If you present me with two plates, plate A has one of my favorite foods and plate B is a plate of dog feces, and tell me to choose one to eat, I'll choose plate A. If you repeat this experiment every day of my life, ceteris paribus, I'll always choose plate A. If someone comes up to me and says that plate B will give me magic powers if I eat it, I'll ignore that person and choose A anyway.

Does this mean I have no free will in this instance, since I will never choose plate B? Of course not, because I have the ability to choose plate B, but never will.

God could have created us with the ability to choose evil but never with the desire, and without the inclination to be swayed by talking snakes. We still would have had free will.



God created Satan knowing what Satan would do. That makes god culpable for what Satan does, because god doesn't stop it.

In your example, if the parents know the kid is going to smack someone (god is omniscient remember), and they don't stop it (god is omnipotent remember), then of course the parents are culpable for what the kid does.

I'm afraid you're not going to be able to come up with a satisfactory answer on this one...

The Truth is not a choice. God in Christ defines freedom, Lucifer's claim of ''culpability'' dismisses the offer of salvation upon the cross, where innocence stands fast free of corruption, liberated from contempt and risen in agreement with the Love of God in Christ, the Holy life that does not change because, there is no choice.

Fear not my friend, Yahshua provides the perfect answer ''on this one''. There is no plate B, that is the false claim. The Truth is not a choice, plate B is the forbidden fruit, the lie that is out of order, it is absence, the void and bottomless pit of what is not known by God in Christ. What is know is risen and sustaining, God in Christ is not absent or void and offers no lie but the Word of God in Christ risen and True. See that you touch not the void or enter into the bottomless pit, be not consumed by the lie. The self devouring beast is the shadow of Death, the love of God in Christ offers the first fruit of salvation that is sustaining order. Be not deceived, persons shall surely perish not because God offered the body and blood of salvation and mercy but because, persons that are not sustained by what Yahshua offers, the Truth ...not a choice.

 

[Judgment]

Where does the idea that sin is the absence of god come from?

Gota specific quote?

Depart from me for I never knew you.

BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Matthew 7:21-23;;

BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Re 13:8,17:8,20:12,15,21:27,Php 4:3;

BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Revelation 9: 1, 2, 3, 4, 11;;

 

[ranmaonehalf]

Depart from me for I never knew you.

BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Matthew 7:21-23;;

BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Re 13:8,17:8,20:12,15,21:27,Php 4:3;

BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Revelation 9: 1, 2, 3, 4, 11;;

I dont see how this relates to sin whatsoever.

Now you might say as a result of sin (whatever that is) god decides to leave you. Or perhaps refuses to acknowledge you. But absence of god?