Is God evil?

[romor24]

Sin is the absence of God and evil is the absence of good. If God created everything then God created evil, nothing can start on its own including evil, it has to start from somewhere.

If the devil started sin in the Garden of Eden because he was jealous of God, then who created the devil? God did. If God created the devil he created all of the devil's actions and had them planed out. He had to have created the devil's jealously within him for it to have the devil tempt Adam and Eve. Therefore he created evil witch lead to sin. Therefore god isn't perfect and is evil.

This confuses me to no end... Please help with a way to prove this wrong

Sorry if this is in the wrong section and about my bad grammar... (if i confused you in any way, if so tell me which part confuses you the most)

 

[maybenotcrazy]

God created a world that is free to evolve or devolve into good or evil. In keeping with this there is free will. God knows all that will happen subsequent and prior to a given moment. This does not mean that he made it so. He has full control yet he only exercises it for good. I admit it is paradoxical. Take at least this much on faith. Then imagine this.
You have a very accurate road map. You know exactly where you will go if you follow a certain route yet if you took that route you wouldn't be made to go where it goes by being on the route. You can have an accident, turn around. Decide to stop, sleep whatever. You can get caught in a tourist trap until it is too late for you to get to where you were planning to go. My point is God sees this map but YOU take a route on your own and do what you will on it. If you decide to take the route that is God's will you have assurance that you are headed to future glory. As st. paul says in Romans. Nothing can compare at all to the glory that will be revealed in us in that day. The world may seem cruel and arbitrary, and it mostly is. The key is to remember as a christian (which I see you are) that God himself came to earth and subjected himself to satan's evil and the world's vagaries. Died and rose. We can blame all creature based evil on free will then and all natural evil such as tornadoes on nature's free "will". that is not to say providence can't change the course of a tornado or fire to avoid or particularly damage a particular place, but by and large free will and natural "will" are arbitrary. I think this forum is a bad place to look for this because a lot of philosophy people will be willing to admit god is evil. not a good viewpoint to see if you want to hold onto your faith. Ask about this question again in the theology section.
God Bless.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Sin is the absence of God

Is it? I've always thought of it as doing something forbidden by God (e.g., eating the fruit of a particular tree).

and evil is the absence of good.

Is it? 'Good' is not a quantity that has a presence (or, indeed, an absence). 'Good' and 'evil' are labels affixed to various actions and consequences denoting their moral worth.

If God created everything

According to the Bible, God created everything that was made. In theory, evil could have always been there.

then God created evil, nothing can start on its own including evil, it has to start from somewhere.

If the devil started sin in the Garden of Eden because he was jealous of God, then who created the devil? God did. If God created the devil he created all of the devil's actions and had them planed out. He had to have created the devil's jealously within him for it to have the devil tempt Adam and Eve. Therefore he created evil witch lead to sin. Therefore god isn't perfect and is evil.

This confuses me to no end... Please help with a way to prove this wrong

That's part of the reason I don't believe in Christian theology: I find it too inconsistent and contradictory to be taken seriously. But that said, there are plenty of sites out there that attempt to reconcile these apparent difficulties.

Free will is generally the way to go, though I'm personally unconvinced that it's a) worth the amount of suffering we see today, and b) it actually solves the problem.

 

[romor24]

God created a world that is free to evolve or devolve into good or evil. In keeping with this there is free will. God knows all that will happen subsequent and prior to a given moment. This does not mean that he made it so.

But things do not happen on their own... Everything has to start from somewhere...

I asked the same question on another forum and got this answer:

" Welcome romor. You've got it slightly scewed the wrong way concerning the history of the Devel or Satan (meaning adversary) God created an Angel named Lucifer (Bright Shining one) To lead worship in heaven. That Angel became proud of his accomplishments despite that he had been perfect in all his ways from the moment of his creation until sin was found in him and he would not repent of it but tried a bloody coupdeta to overthrow the very throne of God and in suchwise through his own choice became evil by reason of his great pride and was cast down. His presence upon earth was a fall back position in an ongoing war. What this means effectively is that free-will finite beings even though they may be created morally perfect have the possibility to chose to do and become evil. As a free-will agent God also has this choice for it would be nonesense to say that any part of His creation is capable of doing something that He himself is not. But God choses to limit His actions and constrain them to His characteristics, those being Benevolence, Goodness etc. rather than what He is capable of doing. He also exists eternally unrestrained or tied to temporal or linear experience. He exists simultaneously every where and every when by virtue of His omnipresence and knows Himself in eternity and can therefore claim quite rightly that He does not change. I hope this will prove helpful in resolving your understanding.

God bless

Pilgrim. "

" The Israelites always did evil in the eyes of the Lord. But creating evil, which started sin, would be a sin (evil in the eyes of the Lord)
Ok if i read what i said above ^^^^ I would be really confused, so heres another chart...

> = Created

God > Lucifer + Evil > Sin > Isrealites doing evil in the eyes of the Lord (God) "

Thats is the answer to his question (with about half of the crap i put, cut out)


Please help me

 

[maybenotcrazy]

yes. When I said free will Implied it on the level of angels as well as humans. Satan is very powerful. Something like an earthly deity but still subordinate to God. God's respect for free will extends even to him in that he allows him to harass us with temptations and other things that we otherwise would not think of. The devil and his minions would like nothing more than to see us fail because they hate our guts more than they love themselves, or else they would probably see it fit to repent (I don't know if God forgives angels who sin) and come back to heaven rather than go to hell. These angels must truly be evil (all connotations of good to them or perfection being lies- even before their fall into evil they were proud and haughty) for they are far more intelligent than we are, know God exists, tremble even when they see him and still turn against him. They knew god since they were created and still did this. That is free will to an extreme. Again, there is a paradox because you might say god knew they would do what they do. That said I don't have anything to back me up but God clearly never wanted them to be as they are and is totally just and loving so he is not going to punish them unjustly. I'm sorry but this is a matter of faith but not logic. A matter of theoria rather than proof. You'll just have to take it as a given and move on. Don't get bogged down on things like this if you have the desire to stay christian. It is not worth it.

 

[romor24]

Thanks for clearing that up for me
I understand completely now
I would +rep you if i could

 

[-Vincent-]

Isaiah 45:6-7

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the
Lord, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

[maybenotcrazy]

Isaiah 45:6-7

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the
Lord, and there is none else.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

I understand this puts a monkey wrench in all I said. In a way it does. But if you believe in the whole bible you can't take it literally that he is evil or the doer of evil. Rather, he is the creator of all that is, including good and evil. Necessarily if you build a car you create the good workmanship and the bad, the potential for it to crash, fail, run out of gas, hit someone etc... It doesn't mean you intended for any of it to be bad. God is love according to the new testament (one of the books of john). This is essentially a statement that his will is always one of love. You can say he is the evildoer but you'd be blaspheming. Rather he is the creator one who endowed the world with the capacity to be good and evil. Certainly the creator of a kitchen knife used in a stabbing didn't intend to be a murder accomplice? The same goes with our lord. We are all agents of our own will which can be used for good or for evil. May faith enlighten those who don't see this but rather see us as robots. Even atheist science doesn't make the case for robotic determinism. Sure we are known for all we do but it is a result of omniscience rather than plan. The lord hardens hearts that are hard to him and softens hearts that are soft to him. In addition he does good to those he knows would do good for him by their character. There are people, adam and eve, cain, etc. Who knew god and still rebelled against him. It is more complex than having exposure to god or evidence that leads to love of god and good deeds in his name.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I understand this puts a monkey wrench in all I said. In a way it does. But if you believe in the whole bible you can't take it literally that he is evil or the doer of evil. Rather, he is the creator of all that is, including good and evil. Necessarily if you build a car you create the good workmanship and the bad. It doesn't mean you intended for any of it to be bad.

Only because human workers are finite in ability and skill. God, one presumes, is not.

God is love according to the new testament (one of the books of john). This is essentially a statement that his will is always one of love. You can say he is the evildoer but you'd be blaspheming. Rather he is the creator one who endowed the world with the capacity to be good and evil. Certainly the creator of a kitchen knife used in a stabbing didn't intend to be a murder accomplice?

Actually, they would: if they knew in advance that the knife they were crafting would be used to kill someone, but created it anyway, how are they not culpable for the murder?

The same goes with our lord. We are all agents of our own will which can be used for good or for evil. May faith enlighten those who don't see this but rather see us as robots. Even atheist science doesn't make the case for robotic determinism. Sure we are known for all we do but it is a result of omniscience rather than plan. The lord hardens hearts that are hard to him and softens hearts that are soft to him.

There's something I've always wondered about that. Why would God harden someone's heart to him? Does that not interfere with one's free will (namely, the freedom to believe things rationally and without bias)?

If someone's heart is already hard, what good is hardening it?

If God is willing to soften hearts, why not soften all of our hearts, so that we all have a tendency to believe / have faith in Jesus etc, and thus be saved? Is God not stacking the odds against the nonbelieving sceptic?

I'm not being antagonistic, I just don't understand some aspects of what you're saying.

 

[maybenotcrazy]

Only because human workers are finite in ability and skill. God, one presumes, is not.


Actually, they would: if they knew in advance that the knife they were crafting would be used to kill someone, but created it anyway, how are they not culpable for the murder?


There's something I've always wondered about that. Why would God harden someone's heart to him? Does that not interfere with one's free will (namely, the freedom to believe things rationally and without bias)?

If someone's heart is already hard, what good is hardening it?

If God is willing to soften hearts, why not soften all of our hearts, so that we all have a tendency to believe / have faith in Jesus etc, and thus be saved? Is God not stacking the odds against the nonbelieving sceptic?

I'm not being antagonistic, I just don't understand some aspects of what you're saying.

I am more about faith than logic these days so I admit there are some paradoxes to be settled in what I wrote. Certainly God made us imperfect for a reason all of us, whether christian or not are imperfect. Christians tend to be, according to what I've read in the bible, reborn sinners. In fact, Christ says to Nicodemus, in order to enter the kingdom, you must be born again. I interpret this to mean more than just simple baptism, I think you literally are a sinner made saint. Not to say all your behavior becomes saintly, but that you are reclaimed by the lord from what could have been an existence that grieved him. The lord, says St. Paul, has a strength made perfect in human weakness. St. Paul in I corinthians mentions that the saved are among the weak and unwise rather than the wise, lest one boast before God. Clearly God has a preference that is not based on earthly works but on faith. The doctrine of the cross, once again according to paul is made foolishness by the standards of worldly wisdom but to those with faith it is God's power and wisdom. My point is there is a tremendous amount of value placed in faith rather than wisdom. That said I'll try to say that the lord created us and didn't pick one of us for special treatment over the other. He knew us all when he created us but probably randomly assigned our fates. Just as a scientist would credit his colleagues with discoveries and not the lord (let us say he was a believer) one on earth would credit his fellow creation with evil or good and not God. Again. This is not totally logical. You must take it on faith that the bible is not lying. If you want a religion where God takes responsibility equally for good and evil and shows arbitrary love and hate you are welcome to take up islam. I'd rather have a God that loves take care of me and I think he does love me and anyone who takes up his cause. As far as why god would harden or soften anyone's heart? There are degrees of reward or punishment for your response to god. If you've been loving towards him he will make you love him more. If you hate him, to punish you he'll make you hate him more. This is his nature. It is not that he would take a person who would respond positively to him and make him hate him. He picks people for salvation and damnation based on merit, though not according to works but according to his foresight of your character. Now again, a car can cause car accidents and hurt people this is a potential given to it by putting tires on it or even doors or any moving parts or sharp parts etc. But it is not that the creator meant those things to happen to one person or another even with foreknowledge, it is nothing personal. It is like this is the way the universe must be, for that is the way it was meant to be. It isn't all about us individually it is about all that is and the whole. Moreso. Omniscience necessarily creates an infinite loop. God knows everything about himself so that he must have knowledge about knowledge about knowledge etc. I think there is more to this than we can understand using words and logic. Sorry to have such an incomplete answer for you.



I have one more point to make. It is hard enough to understand the nature of our knowledge and culpability for our actions. How much more difficult then can it be to understand one who contains us within his knowledge and contains the whole universe as well. It is arrogant to think we can truly characterize God's nature using catchphrases and words. At least a few really difficult ideas that only he can understand are involved. Certainly it is not clear cut to explain the being that created atoms, weather, galaxies, relativity, and biology. God is not incomprehensible, just beyond COMprehension, that is beholding completely. No one, probably not even God can behold God completely. It just creates too much chaos. And if he can, then the nature of his knowledge is not like our knowledge at all. It is at least as complex as an atom's behavior or the behavior of our sun but probably moreso. My advice to someone who is worried about god hardening his heart is to call upon the lord jesus with humility and ask him to make him believe. I believe if you are SINCERE God will not deny your request. May the lord bless you

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I am more about faith than logic these days so I admit there are some paradoxes to be settled in what I wrote. Certainly God made us imperfect for a reason all of us, whether christian or not are imperfect. Christians tend to be, according to what I've read in the bible, reborn sinners. In fact, Christ says to Nicodemus, in order to enter the kingdom, you must be born again. I interpret this to mean more than just simple baptism, I think you literally are a sinner made saint. Not to say all your behavior becomes saintly, but that you are reclaimed by the lord from what could have been an existence that grieved him. The lord, says St. Paul, has a strength made perfect in human weakness. St. Paul in I corinthians mentions that the saved are among the weak and unwise rather than the wise, lest one boast before God. Clearly God has a preference that is not based on earthly works but on faith. The doctrine of the cross, once again according to paul is made foolishness by the standards of worldly wisdom but to those with faith it is God's power and wisdom.

But surely that is just an illusion caused by faith itself? "If I have faith that God has a plan, it suddenly makes sense to me that God has a plan!"

My point is there is a tremendous amount of value placed in faith rather than wisdom. That said I'll try to say that the lord created us and didn't pick one of us for special treatment over the other. He knew us all when he created us but probably randomly assigned our fates. Just as a scientist would credit his colleagues with discoveries and not the lord (let us say he was a believer) one on earth would credit his fellow creation with evil or good and not God. Again. This is not totally logical. You must take it on faith that the bible is not lying.

I'm sorry, but I cannot accept that a logical paradox is nonetheless true. I can understand that you might have to take the truth of the Bible 'on faith' (i.e., believe it despite having no reason to), but it's something else entirely to put it above even logic.

Is God capable of enacting logical paradoxes? Can he make square circles? If not, I don't see how one can take an inconsistent theology as true, regardless of faith.

If you want a religion where God takes responsibility equally for good and evil and shows arbitrary love and hate you are welcome to take up islam. I'd rather have a God that loves take care of me and I think he does love me and anyone who takes up his cause.

You imply that your religion isn't one where God shows arbitrary love and hate, yet God only saves those who believe in him. Is this not an arbitrary distinction? Why should it matter whether one believes in God or not? What kind of loving parent would allow their child to fall into a fire, regardless of how the child viewed the parent?

As far as why god would harden or soften anyone's heart? There are degrees of reward or punishment for your response to god. If you've been loving towards him he will make you love him more. If you hate him, to punish you he'll make you hate him more. This is his nature. It is not that he would take a person who would respond positively to him and make him hate him. He picks people for salvation and damnation based on merit, though not according to works but according to his foresight of your character. Now again, a car can cause car accidents and hurt people this is a potential given to it by putting tires on it or even doors or any moving parts or sharp parts etc. But it is not that the creator meant those things to happen to one person or another even with foreknowledge, it is nothing personal. It is like this is the way the universe must be, for that is the way it was meant to be. It isn't all about us individually it is about all that is and the whole. Moreso. Omniscience necessarily creates an infinite loop. God knows everything about himself so that he must have knowledge about knowledge about knowledge etc. I think there is more to this than we can understand using words and logic. Sorry to have such an incomplete answer for you.

That's OK. I have the same problem trying to explain a complicated aspect of physics to someone who has no scientific training. Maddening .

I have one more point to make. It is hard enough to understand the nature of our knowledge and culpability for our actions. How much more difficult then can it be to understand one who contains us within his knowledge and contains the whole universe as well. It is arrogant to think we can truly characterize God's nature using catchphrases and words. At least a few really difficult ideas that only he can understand are involved. Certainly it is not clear cut to explain the being that created atoms, weather, galaxies, relativity, and biology. God is not incomprehensible, just beyond COMprehension, that is beholding completely. No one, probably not even God can behold God completely. It just creates too much chaos. And if he can, then the nature of his knowledge is not like our knowledge at all. It is at least as complex as an atom's behavior or the behavior of our sun but probably moreso.

So... don't try to understand God, he's just too complex?

My advice to someone who is worried about god hardening his heart is to call upon the lord jesus with humility and ask him to make him believe. I believe if you are SINCERE God will not deny your request. May the lord bless you

So much for free will, eh . Thanks for your detailed response!

 

[maybenotcrazy]

But surely that is just an illusion caused by faith itself? "If I have faith that God has a plan, it suddenly makes sense to me that God has a plan!"


I'm sorry, but I cannot accept that a logical paradox is nonetheless true. I can understand that you might have to take the truth of the Bible 'on faith' (i.e., believe it despite having no reason to), but it's something else entirely to put it above even logic.

Is God capable of enacting logical paradoxes? Can he make square circles? If not, I don't see how one can take an inconsistent theology as true, regardless of faith.


You imply that your religion isn't one where God shows arbitrary love and hate, yet God only saves those who believe in him. Is this not an arbitrary distinction? Why should it matter whether one believes in God or not? What kind of loving parent would allow their child to fall into a fire, regardless of how the child viewed the parent?


That's OK. I have the same problem trying to explain a complicated aspect of physics to someone who has no scientific training. Maddening .


So... don't try to understand God, he's just too complex?


So much for free will, eh . Thanks for your detailed response!

I can't make anyone believe but I can make those who believe think about why they believe. We Christians believe because we believe. I know that is a little silly sounding but once you believe you want to believe and you must believe if you believe lest you lose sight of your goal a healthy sign of faith is this: you believe in something because it feels true. It is not a condition of belief that you know or understand what you believe in. Belief is like a checkmark on a list of things your mind does. Do I believe? CHECK!
God isn't just about belief, he likes people to love him- after all the bible says that demons believe and tremble. If you love him he loves you and it is a give and take relationship. The main thing is you need him he doesn't need you. He wants your love but will not force you to love him. So much for free will? Well if you are going by worldly wisdom, absolutely. I trust God is not someone we can understand, though we CAN TRY to understand him sure. The way we can try to understand the behavior of our fellow humans- which can be mystifying enough. If God sees in you signs he can make a faithful friend out of you, even if you don't believe currently he'll get you there. I know you won't believe me but as an atheist, and I was a terrible one, often blaspheming, I was awakened in the middle of the night by a very loud thunderous reverberating voice I attribute to God now, it said "you have the power to change" I know this isn't biblical and it may be anything or my own mind which said it but it reinforces my opinion that God doesn't give up on people unless they are such who would give up on him.

I also don't mean to be antagonistic Wiccanchild, but what makes you see wicca (which I know absolutely nothing about save what wiccapedia says about it) as more credible than christ? Do you believe in a God and goddess or something more complex than wikipedia's description?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I can't make anyone believe but I can make those who believe think about why they believe. We Christians believe because we believe. I know that is a little silly sounding but once you believe you want to believe and you must believe if you believe lest you lose sight of your goal a healthy sign of faith is this: you believe in something because it feels true.

But that's just it: you believe only because it feels true. There is no other indication that it is true.

It is not a condition of belief that you know or understand what you believe in. Belief is like a checkmark on a list of things your mind does. Do I believe? CHECK!
God isn't just about belief, he likes people to love him- after all the bible says that demons believe and tremble. If you love him he loves you and it is a give and take relationship. The main thing is you need him he doesn't need you. He wants your love but will not force you to love him. So much for free will? Well if you are going by worldly wisdom, absolutely. I trust God is not someone we can understand, though we CAN TRY to understand him sure. The way we can try to understand the behavior of our fellow humans- which can be mystifying enough. If God sees in you signs he can make a faithful friend out of you, even if you don't believe currently he'll get you there. I know you won't believe me but as an atheist, and I was a terrible one, often blaspheming, I was awakened in the middle of the night by a very loud thunderous reverberating voice I attribute to God now, it said "you have the power to change" I know this isn't biblical and it may be anything or my own mind which said it but it reinforces my opinion that God doesn't give up on people unless they are such who would give up on him.

I'm not sure of anyone who would continue to not believe in God if he manifested in front of them. Atheists have routinely asked for evidence of God, for a reason to believe. Even if God does exist, I am suspicious of his motives for wanting blind faith, for not giving reason to believe.

The hidden and the non-existent look very much alike.

I also don't mean to be antagonistic Wiccanchild, but what makes you see wicca (which I know absolutely nothing about save what wiccapedia says about it) as more credible than christ? Do you believe in a God and goddess or something more complex than wikipedia's description?

At the moment, I'd actually call myself an atheist. My rationality has caught up with me .

But to turn the question around on your, why do you consider Christianity to be more credible than Hinduism, or Buddhism, or indeed Wicca?

 

[Blackmarch]

Sin is the absence of God and evil is the absence of good. If God created everything then God created evil, nothing can start on its own including evil, it has to start from somewhere.

If sin is the absence of God then God does not need to create it. If evil is the absence of Good, then to fit with the previoius statement anything Good must come from God.

If the devil started sin in the Garden of Eden because he was jealous of God, then who created the devil? God did. If God created the devil he created all of the devil's actions and had them planed out. He had to have created the devil's jealously within him for it to have the devil tempt Adam and Eve. Therefore he created evil witch lead to sin. Therefore god isn't perfect and is evil.

This confuses me to no end... Please help with a way to prove this wrong

Sorry if this is in the wrong section and about my bad grammar... (if i confused you in any way, if so tell me which part confuses you the most)

it depends on if beings are allowed to have their own wills or not. If beings are allowed their own will then what they do is their own creation, not those that created them. And my stance is that we have our own wills.
As for the Devil he was once a good individual, who rebelled and both failed in his bid and fell. Which would have been before the Garden of eden.

 

[Tikiman06]

Creating evil for the greater good is not evil in my opinion, it is just a way of maximizing good.

Furthermore, it is not wholly concrete to say that sin is the absence of good. Perfection is lack of imperfection, and therefore it is just as easy to say that good is an absence of evil.


I think it is not very possible to prove that God is good. Take Descartes' evil deceiver. If we were made unable to think of the "Creator" being evil, we would always reach logical and mental conclusions that the "Creator" is all-good. Therefore any logical or mental conclusions that you reach about the goodness of any Creator is almost irrelevant, because our faculties may be designed to do so.

 

[RyanLeeParis]

Do you really think God would go from creating what we see around us outside, including us, make the sky blue and Nature's laws set-up nicely, only to turn around and act like an ass?

God is not evil. Look at a beautiful woman. Look at a sun-set. Look at a humming bird. God has a nice imagination and is clearly not something evil.

The only evil, I repeat, the only evil I have ever seen has come from people. It's either something they say, how they act, or both, that gives you a distinct feeling that tells you "hey... that's evil." This only comes from people, not God.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Creating evil for the greater good is not evil in my opinion, it is just a way of maximizing good.

What if you can maximise good without creating evil, but choose the evil means nonetheless?

 

[Vigilante]

God is not evil. Look at a beautiful woman. Look at a sun-set. Look at a humming bird. God has a nice imagination and is clearly not something evil.

Not so fast. While I too accept the Christian God and his intrinsic goodness, a claim like this might easily be reversed:

God is evil. Look at an ugly woman. Stand under a meteor shower. Look at a malformed child. God has a horrific imagination and is clearly something evil.

We find ourselves in the unenviable position of imperfection, and we need more than to point to the bright side of the moon to assure ourselves that there's a purpose beyond merely our own in continuing this life.

There's something I've always wondered about that. Why would God harden someone's heart to him? Does that not interfere with one's free will (namely, the freedom to believe things rationally and without bias)?

If God is willing to soften hearts, why not soften all of our hearts, so that we all have a tendency to believe / have faith in Jesus etc, and thus be saved? Is God not stacking the odds against the nonbelieving sceptic?

You and quatona are my favorite people on this forum. =)

There doesn't seem to me to be any satisfying way to answer this question except under the assumption of universal salvation, in which case we may posit a hardening of heart as indirectly merciful (either in an immediate or eschatological sense) toward either the individual in question or some other individual or group with whom the individual comes in contact. I don't have time to hash out any logistics for this, but this has been forwarded by several Christian universalists, including philosopher Thomas Talbott.

The more pressing concern at this point is whether or not we have any good Biblical reasons to suppose that God intends--and is able--to save all. I think yes and yes, and I don't suppose any other configuration is ultimately satisfying given the inborn quirks and limitations of our brains, as well as our relatively small capacity for experience. (Again, I don't have time to hash this out more--and I'm sure I'll be voodoo-pricked by several others for this claim--but take an allegation for what it's worth. Or you can read a modest essay I wrote on the topic: http://www.mediafire.com/file/2adnzzlgzwg/The Sound of Triumph.pdf)

Open theism seems attractive as a philosophical problem solver but I have difficulties with it that I can't seem to square away with experience, so I seem to be stuck sitting with a problem and a pair of twiddling thumbs.

Anyway, I'm out of time. Hope this helps (or at least entertains!).

 

[Wiccan_Child]

You and quatona are my favorite people on this forum. =)

Aww shucks .

There doesn't seem to me to be any satisfying way to answer this question except under the assumption of universal salvation, in which case we may posit a hardening of heart as indirectly merciful (either in an immediate or eschatological sense) toward either the individual in question or some other individual or group with whom the individual comes in contact. I don't have time to hash out any logistics for this, but this has been forwarded by several Christian universalists, including philosopher Thomas Talbott.

The more pressing concern at this point is whether or not we have any good Biblical reasons to suppose that God intends--and is able--to save all. I think yes and yes, and I don't suppose any other configuration is ultimately satisfying given the inborn quirks and limitations of our brains, as well as our relatively small capacity for experience. (Again, I don't have time to hash this out more--and I'm sure I'll be voodoo-pricked by several others for this claim--but take an allegation for what it's worth. Or you can read a modest essay I wrote on the topic: http://www.mediafire.com/file/2adnzzlgzwg/The Sound of Triumph.pdf)

Open theism seems attractive as a philosophical problem solver but I have difficulties with it that I can't seem to square away with experience, so I seem to be stuck sitting with a problem and a pair of twiddling thumbs.

Anyway, I'm out of time. Hope this helps (or at least entertains!).

Interesting read. I've never heard of universalism, but it makes far more sense than the rest of Christianity. Hell, indeed.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Do you really think God would go from creating what we see around us outside, including us, make the sky blue and Nature's laws set-up nicely, only to turn around and act like an ass?

Looking at the world we live in, I have to say: yes.

God is not evil. Look at a beautiful woman.

Look at a child dying of parasitic infection.

Look at a sun-set.

Look at a bush fire that ravages Australia, or Africa, or North America.

Look at a humming bird.

Look at a chimpanzee that beats human infants to death, or rips the faces of humans.

God has a nice imagination and is clearly not something evil.

I am honestly aghast at that statment. This is God being nice? I'd hate to think what a vengeful, wrathful, jealous God would be like...

Oh, wait, those who lived in Sodom, Gomorrah, Zeboim, and Admah, would beg to differ.

The only evil, I repeat, the only evil I have ever seen has come from people. It's either something they say, how they act, or both, that gives you a distinct feeling that tells you "hey... that's evil." This only comes from people, not God.

So you can't name one 'evil' act that is not directly caused by people? You've never heard of cyclones, earthquakes, pandemics, genocides, etc?