is God a trinity or a dualigy

[Evangelion]

For Daniel B. Wallace's article on Cyprian and the Comma Johanneum, see here.

 

[new2calvin]

Fine lets say there is not a trinity but there is a dualigy at least. "John 1:1-In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Then in "John 1:14-The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth" So there is at least a dualigy.

 

[Evangelion]

Um, no.

For John 1:1-14, see [link deleted]

If you'd like to discuss this further, feel free to sign up at my forum. I'd be glad to see you there.



[noother]This post was edited by Old SHepherd, for violation of rules[/noother]

 

[Evangelion]

 

[wipeout]

I've posted this in other forums, but once again it seems to be not understood. This is the most logical reasoning.

God the Father, I would assume for logic's sake, is YHWH(Jehovah), God Almighty to whom we pray and Jesus prayed. Jesus Christ was the Word born in the flesh (John ch. 1). Christ's spirit is the Holy Spirit(Romans ch. 8).

To better understand here's some points to ponder:

Jesus was God's Only Begotten---The Word of God is the Only Begotten of God(through which the worlds were made)

Jesus said he was the Truth, and he said that God's Word is Truth
And the Spirit of Jesus Christ(the Holy Spirit) is the Spirit of Truth(Spirit of the Word)

The Word is God's Seed, The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God's Seed(Christ)
EG "Born of God"... Jesus being born from the Spirit

Jesus said in John "Unless you eat my flesh (the Word) and drink my blood(the Spirit) you have no part with me"

In response to where Jesus said "I and the Father are one" consider the following:
In proverbs it states that: "As water reflects the face, so a man's heart reflects the man"
man was created in God's image
Jesus said "out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks"
Thus out of the overflow of God's heart He spoke His Word(Jesus)
And His Word would Be a reflection of who He was
As it is written of Jesus "He is the image of the invisible God"
God and His Word are One Even as you and your word are one.

for when you consider it relating to humans:
a)your word, or the concept of your word
b)made a person
c)would basically be identiacal to you

Point to ponder: Are not your word and you one?

Or am I the only one who sees this logic?

 

[Ben johnson]

Jesus was God's Only Begotten---The Word of God is the Only Begotten of God(through which the worlds were made)

Jesus was not truly 'begotten of God"---He rather, "became AS the begotten". In Heb7:3, it says: "...but made LIKE the Son of God..."

Philip2:5ff says: "Jesus ...existed in the form of God, but did not regard equality with God to be robbery; but laid aside His priveleges, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to death, even to death on a cross."

"MADE" in this verse, is "ginomai"---which means, "to become". Before Jesus was born, Jesus WAS. Jesus ginomai-became the likeness of men, as of the only begotten Son of God.

The word "BEGOTTEN" confers a beginning, a start---Jesus has no beginning conveyed in Scripture. "Without mother, without father, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made LIKE the Son of God..."

In response to where Jesus said "I and the Father are one"...

May I make a suggestion? Don't believe me, don't believe responses on this board; but will you believe people from the TIME? If you could travel through time and ask the Pharisees and people who had HEARD Jesus, would you believe them?

Jn10:30ff " 'I and the Father are ONE' (footnote, NASV: "One is ESSENCE"). The Jews took up stones to kil Him. Jesus asnwered: 'I showed you many good works from the Father---for which of them are you stoning Me?' The Jews answered Him: 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for BLASPHEMY; because YOU, being a MAN, make yourself out to BE GOD!' "

There you have it---the testimiony of the witnesses, across the sea of time, just for you. The JEWS who HEARD Him, clearly heard Him to be calling Himself, GOD. So you don't hafta take my word for it, or anyone else here on the site---the witnesses of the time have clearly told you---Jesus called Himself, GOD.

 

[healthwoman]

I am open to the trinity, but can't reason it out. I believe in God the Father, Christ His Son, and I believe the Holy Spirit is the power they use. If the Holy Spirit is God, then why didn't Christ call it 'father'?

 

[healthwoman]

Also, does not believing in the trinity make someone not a christian?

 

[wipeout]

In Hebrews 7:3 it is making reference to Melchisidec.

And After the Pharisees said "because YOU, being a MAN, make yourself out to BE GOD!" Jesus Says he is only claiming to be God's son.

For the Word is in the Father, and the Father is in His Word.
Makes sense?

And the term "Only Begotten" in the Greek means "only Born"
The only thing not created by God's Word, is God's Word
Hence Jesus is the Word.

Also the Jews at the time thought a lot of other things that I'm sure none of us agree with.
Unless of course you would want to crucify the Son of God too.

 

[artnalex]

Understanding the Trinity takes a leap of faith. We can understand it to a certain degree, but five minutes later we are scratching our heads as to how we understood it in the vfirst place.

As Ben Johnson, the [Olympic track star and] forum moderator stated, the Pharisees tried stoning Jesus for making that assertion. Also, both God the Father and God the Son make the statement "I AM", referring to the singularity of their Being. Remember, God has three persons, but all in one Being. Very difficult, but it is just one of the many mysteries that pertain to God.

 

[wipeout]

I choose to worship the same god Jesus did.

 

[D. Paul]

To be honest I find the Jehovas witnesses theory to be the most logical. The Father is the creator (The first, God), the Holy Spirit is the force of God working in men, Jesus is the creation of God and since nothing is impossible for God he made Jesus his equal. Jesus is as importent and great as the Father and therefore him dying on the cross matters a great deal. For the record, I agree that Jesus was at the beginng and "was" before his birth as a human.
Why do I believe this:

Jesus often prayed to God (this goes to show that they are 2 different beings) and the Holy Spirit is described as a force working in men. But this leads me to wonder, are we a monotheistic religion or aren't we?

Oh, my friend, youneed help in your understanding of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Do you honestly believe the Holy Spirit is merely a force? Who, then, can lie to a force?
Acts 4:3 How can a force be called "He"? John 15:26?

Furthermore, JW's cannot be considered orthodox CHristian and hold the views of CHrist that they do.

 

[pmarquette]

new2calvin - No.

Epistle of John : the 3 who bear witness in heaven : water - God - Ezekiel 47 ;
the Spirit - Holy Spirit ; and the blood - Jesus - Rev. 12.11

The baptism of Jesus , by John :
Jesus in the water , God speaking , Holy Spirit descending

Genesis 1 and John 1
Jesus the word of God ; God the creator ; Holy Spirit - implementing will of Father

Gospels :
I only do what I see or hear the Father say
I must go , that another like me might come


And Matthew Slick's attempt to prove it, is one of the weakest I have ever seen in my entire life.

 

[Javier G]

Read the New Testament and count the amount of times the Son and the Father are
mentioned in relation to each other.
Afterwards, do the same and count the amount of times the Father and the Holy
Spirit are mentioned in relations to each other. Do the same with The Son and the
Holy Spirit. After you are done, weigh them. You will find that one overweights the
other. John 1:1 "In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God ,and the
Word was God"
God tells us about himself in the creation of the human creature.
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us (Plural) make man (Human) in our image, after our
likeness ........."
Let us make man like us. Male and female He created them.
Man and Woman equals ONE
Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall become ONE FLESH".
Adam and Eve =Two equal ONE.
God and the Word=Two equal ONE.
There is no trinity. That is a man made doctrine not from God.

 

[Rescued One]

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Colossians 1
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Hebrews 1 : 1, 2, 8 — God the Father calls the Son, "God."

Acts 5 : 3-4 --Peter calls the Holy Spirit, "God."

John 6 : 27 --Jesus calls the Father, "God."


GOD IS ONE GOD

Deuteronomy 6 : 4 — There is only one God, Jehovah.

2. Isaiah 43 : 10-11— He is the LORD and only Savior.

3. Isaiah 44 : 6 — He is the first and the last.

4. Revelation 1 : 8 — He is the Lord God Almighty, the Alpha and Omega.

5. Revelation 22 : 13, 16 — Jesus is the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.

6. Revelation 1 : 17-18 — The one God who was the first and the last died and rose again!

The Trinity Revealed in the Resurrection

1. Acts 10 : 39-40 — God raised Christ from the dead.

2. 1 Thessalonians 1 : 10 — God the Father raised the Son from the dead.

3. Romans 8 : 11 — God the Spirit raised the Son from the dead.

4. John 2 : 19-22 — God the Son raised Himself from the dead.

 

[Rescued One]

I am open to the trinity, but can't reason it out. I believe in God the Father, Christ His Son, and I believe the Holy Spirit is the power they use. If the Holy Spirit is God, then why didn't Christ call it 'father'?

[Jesus] clearly perceived of the Holy Spirit as a Person. Speaking to the apostles on the evening before His crucifixion, Jesus said:

I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you (John 14:16-17).​

The Holy Spirit is "another Helper." The implication is clear: Although Jesus would be leaving them, He would send them the Holy Spirit to guide them and empower them. This is clearly the function of a personal being.

Other Bible passages also make it clear that the Holy Spirit is a Person. Paul spoke of the "love of the Spirit" (Rom. 15:30). He also told us not to "grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Eph. 4:30). Only a personal being can love and be grieved.

In addition, the Holy Spirit leads and guides (Rom. 8:14), teaches (John 14:26), and calls and commissions (Acts 20:28). Moreover, this Person is named with the Father and the Son in passages like Matthew 28:19. The apostle Peter expressly declared the Holy Spirit's deity when he confronted a sinning husband and wife. He asked them why they had conspired together to "lie to the Holy Spirit" (Acts 5:3). Then he told them that in so doing, they had "not lied to men but to God" (v.4).

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." -Matthew 28: 19.

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0107/point3.html

I don't know if this answers your question, but maybe it will help.

 

[rnmomof7]

is there Biblical proof for the Trinity???

The Jehovah witnesses and members of the United Church of God (holding the old Armstrong doctrine of God as a family and the Holy Spirit as the love between the Father and the Son )are the ones that hold most tightly to the idea of duality .

The word Trinity does not appear in scripture but neither does the word Bible.

Scripture points to the trinitarian nature of God .

 

[HadouKen24]

Funny. And here I thought the Bible points toward something kinda like Arianism...

At least, that's how I interpret all the verses that clearly subordinate Jesus to God. Phillipians 2:6, for example. (But don't use the NIV. They mangled the translation badly.)

 

[seebs]

A friend of mine once pointed out that there's nothing that explicitly says "there's only three". We know about three.

 

[KittiK]

I have heard so many different versions of the trinity.
One is that all three are equal and working toward one goal and another on is one God three "masks".
which one?