Is God a liar?

[mmksparbud]

Not in the hebrew. shamayim is a plural form.



Consider though the plain reading of the text. Why the need to see a gap? Christ didn't see a gap. He said, "from the beginning of creation God made them male and female." Consider also Ex. 20:11. "in six days God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them." If that's true, there couldn't have been a creation prior to the six days. All that was created was created in the six days."

Consider also the existence of death and suffering. Did these enter the world prior to Adam? Millions of years prior?

Or are they the result of Adam's sin?

Death and suffering could only start after the fall--I was considering the empty and void earth as just that--empty and void---however--there is one little word that nullifies all my speculations---ALL THAT IS IN THEM--end of story! So much for being clever.

 

[Colter]

All the scientific evidence points to an ancient earth. Furthermore, the fossil records support the slow change of species over time, such as dinosaurs to birds. *IF* these things are not true, it would follow that God deliberately created a world with false scientific data. Right? So then this begs the questions...

Did God lie?
And if God lied, why?

What do you believe?

No! If you look closely you will see that the Bible books don't claim divine authorship. It's the church teachings that claim the books to be the inerrant Word of God because that's where they derive their institutional authority.

 

[Meowzltov]

No! If you look closely you will see that the Bible books don't claim divine authorship. It's the church teachings that claim the books to be the inerrant Word of God because that's where they derive their institutional authority.

I've always thought it strange that people think God wrote the Bible. There are verses that say the Bible is inspired, and apparently parts of the books of Law are dictated, but as for alllllll the rest, why do we think they are dictated?

 

[Colter]

I've always thought it strange that people think God wrote the Bible. There are verses that say the Bible is inspired, and apparently parts of the books of Law are dictated, but as for alllllll the rest, why do we think they are dictated?

Keep in mind, if Moses wrote Genesis, it was in another language other than Hebrew because Hebrew dates to about 900 BC, it comes from the Phoenician alphabet. Scholars date the OT book redactions and edits to about 600 BC, during the Babylonian captivity, after the devastating loss of the Israelite national identity. That puts the rather eyebrow raising "miraculous history" of the Hebrews written 1,000 years after Moses lived.

Also, it's clear that Moses was a reformer of previous practices and beliefs. If the earth were only 6,000 years old and Adam had a religion carried through Noah, where is the scripture for that religion? What was that religion, it's authority? What sorts of doctrine did those people live by? And why doesn't ANY OTHER culture on earth trace their blood lines to Noah's descendants? How come the Chinese don't remember being Jews????? Call me crazy but I kinda notice that the Chinese and Aborigines don't look much like Jews?

 

[mmksparbud]

There were no Jews until Abraham. Just about every cultured has their story of beginning, most have similarities, including many with stories of a flood. The descendants of Adam and Eve had inherited their great intellect and I doubt needed books, oral tradition, if you're living 800-900 years you got everything pretty well memorized.---however, the flood wiped out everything anyway. What room Noah had in the ark was pretty crucial and may not have included those kind of books, if there were any.

 

[Colter]

There were no Jews until Abraham. Just about every cultured has their story of beginning, most have similarities, including many with stories of a flood. The descendants of Adam and Eve had inherited their great intellect and I doubt needed books, oral tradition, if you're living 800-900 years you got everything pretty well memorized.---however, the flood wiped out everything anyway. What room Noah had in the ark was pretty crucial and may not have included those kind of books, if there were any.

The only thing that the flood story did was fill in the gap between the farthest memories of the Hebrews descendants and Adams descendants. In other words, the flood story was used in the Hebrews genealogical account, it's obviously not accurate. God has never and will never regret anything he has done, is doing or will ever do. The flood story is very human.

 

[Meowzltov]

Keep in mind, if Moses wrote Genesis,

I'm not sure who wrote the book of Genesis, but I doubt it was Moses. It went through sooooooooo many editings to reach its final form.

 

[Calminian]

I'm not sure who wrote the book of Genesis, but I doubt it was Moses. It went through sooooooooo many editings to reach its final form.

Well so far I hear a lot of unbelief in the Bible, and a lot of doubts about the Bible. But no one has yet made the case that a literal view of scripture makes God a liar. OH, seems you're abandoning your OP.

 

[Meowzltov]

seems you're abandoning your OP

I've already slam dunked by case. No one is continuing to argue against it.

 

[mmksparbud]

The only thing that the flood story did was fill in the gap between the farthest memories of the Hebrews descendants and Adams descendants. In other words, the flood story was used in the Hebrews genealogical account, it's obviously not accurate. God has never and will never regret anything he has done, is doing or will ever do. The flood story is very human.

(Mat 24:38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
(Mat 24:39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(Luk 17:27) They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.


If it's accurate enough for Christ to believe it, it is accurate enough for me.

 

[Calminian]

I've already slam dunked by case. No one is continuing to argue against it.

Seemed like more of a brick to me.

(Mat 24:38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
(Mat 24:39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(Luk 17:27) They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.


If it's accurate enough for Christ to believe it, it is accurate enough for me.

Which is likely why they also don't believe the testimony of Christ.

 

[Colter]

(Mat 24:38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
(Mat 24:39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(Luk 17:27) They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.


If it's accurate enough for Christ to believe it, it is accurate enough for me.

Seems some of the authors may have misremembered what Jesus said in their justification for leaving Judaism to follow the Liberal radical from Nazareth.

 

[Calminian]

Seems some of the authors may have misremembered what Jesus said in their justification for leaving Judaism to follow the Liberal radical from Nazareth.

Matthew was the friend of Christ and a close disciple. Why would I believe you over him?

 

[KWCrazy]

It is the voice of the Earth that is the voice of God. The scientist merely has a good set of ears.

So you hear inanimate objects speaking to you?

If you read Genesis 1 you will notice something interesting. EVERYTHING that was created was in its mature state. Birds were created in flocks. Oceans became teeming with fish immediately. Trees bearing fruit pre-dated the sun. Adam could walk and talk immediately. There is NOT ONE SINGLE ITEM in creation that needed even a few thousand years to be in its ready state. You say that scientists "hear the voice of the earth." Rubbish! Science is the study of the physical world around us. It takes what is know and extrapolates into the unknown and sometimes unknowable. We see things in their mature state and assume age; like a tall oak tree that we presume must be 100 years old. Science can't account for the fact that God could simply will a forest full of them and they would exist.

God TOLD US how old the world is, how He created it, WHY He created it, why He will destroy it, and why we have an eternal destiny. You're listening to the wrong voices.

 

[Colter]

Matthew was the friend of Christ and a close disciple. Why would I believe you over him?

If the Bible said the moon was made of cheese would you believe it?

If the flood story wasn't in the Hebrews genealogical account and it was recently discovered in a tomb in Egypt would you believe it? Would you believe that Australian Aborigines or Chinese people are actually Noah's descendants? That a 500 year old man put millions of species of plants and animals on a bot and floated around for a year? That God was disappointed in something he made?

Why doesn't ANY other culture on earth remember being related to Noah????

 

[Calminian]

If the Bible said the moon was made of cheese would you believe it?

No.

If the flood story wasn't in the Hebrews genealogical account and it was recently discovered in a tomb in Egypt would you believe it?

The story of the flood is found in virtually all ancient cultures. I would expect that if the event really happened.

Would you believe that Australian Aborigines or Chinese people are actually Noah's descendants?

Yes. Noah's grandchildren in the Table of Nations include Egypt (mitsrayim-son of Ham), Greece (Javan-son of Japheth) and Ethiopia (Cush-son of Ham). All nations of the world come from the 3 sons of Noah, and the population today gives evidence of this. If humans go back millions of years, there should be a lot more people in the world. If you want to explore this further, see: Where are all the people?

Also see:
The original ‘unknown’ god of China
An Ancient pictogram script points to the Bible

and:

Australian Aboriginal Flood Stories

That a 500 year old man put millions of species of plants and animals on a bot and floated around for a year?

Yes, I firmly believe in the genius of ancient man. Just look at the ancient structures he was able to construct. Look at the pyramids! Look at ancient ships built by the Norwegians, Greeks and Chinese. Clearly, the evidence points to highly intelligent ancestors. Building a boat that merely had a float for a year? Pffff.

And the science of baraminology is quickly exposing the false argument of millions of species. God didn't need to put every species and subspecies of animal on the ark. He merely needed to bring the original kind to Noah—the original dog from which all dogs come, the original cat from which all cats come, etc.

Even secular scientists are now admitting there are only about 50-60 kinds of dinosaurs and there may have been even fewer kinds as some of those dino species came from common ancestors.

That God was disappointed in something he made?

Parents are disappointed in kids all the time. And they know it's going to happen in advance, yet still procreate. If you believe in free-volition, why would this be a stumbling block to you?

Why doesn't ANY other culture on earth remember being related to Noah????

You're one of the first skeptics I've run into that is not familiar with the multiple flood legends around the world. I suggest Martin's book, "Flood Legends." You can find it on amazon. It'll make a better skeptic.

 

[Colter]

No.



The story of the flood is found in virtually all ancient cultures. I would expect that if the event really happened.



Yes. Noah's grandchildren in the Table of Nations include Egypt (mitsrayim-son of Ham), Greece (Javan-son of Japheth) and Ethiopia (Cush-son of Ham). All nations of the world come from the 3 sons of Noah, and the population today gives evidence of this. If humans go back millions of years, there should be a lot more people in the world. If you want to explore this further, see: Where are all the people?

Also see:
The original ‘unknown’ god of China
An Ancient pictogram script points to the Bible



Yes, I firmly believe in the genius of ancient man. Just look at the ancient structures he was able to construct. Look at the pyramids! Look at ancient ships built by the Norwegians, Greeks and Chinese. Clearly, the evidence points to highly intelligent ancestors. Building a boat that merely had a float for a year? Pffff.

And the science of baraminology is quickly exposing the false argument of millions of species. God didn't need to put every species and subspecies of animal on the ark. He merely needed to bring the original kind to Noah—the original dog from which all dogs come, the original cat from which all cats come, etc.

Even secular scientists are now admitting there are only about 50-60 kinds of dinosaurs and there may have been even fewer kinds as some of those dino species came from common ancestors.



Parents are disappointed in kids all the time. And they know it's going to happen in advance, yet still procreate. If you believe in free-volition, why would this be a stumbling block to you?



Wow! You're one of the first skeptics I've run into that is not familiar with the multiple flood legends around the world. I suggest Martin's book, "Flood Legends." You can find it on amazon. It'll make a better skeptic.

Its not true that cultures around the world believe in Noah's flood, just floods great and small because floods happen all the time.

God is eternal and perfect, he doesn't make mistakes and it didn't work, man is just as wicked as he ever was.

The flood story is a fabrication on the part of the Hebrews because they couldn't trace their blood lines all the way back to Adam (who they wrongly assumed was the first man on earth).

How old are the Chinese?

Prehistory
Main article: Chinese prehistory

Jade deer ornament dating from the Shang Dynasty (17th–11th centuries BCE)
Archaeological evidence suggests that early hominids inhabited China between 250,000 and 2.24 million years ago.[31] A cave in Zhoukoudian (near present-day Beijing) exhibits hominid fossils dated at between 680,000 and 780,000 BCE.[32] The fossils are of Peking Man, an example of Homo erectus who used fire.[33] The Peking Man site has also yielded remains of Homo sapiens dating back to 18,000–11,000 BCE.[34] Chinese proto-writing existed in Jiahu around 7000 BC,[35] Dadiwan from 5800 BC to 5400 BC, Damaidi around 6000 BC [36] and Banpo dating from the 5th millennium BC. Some scholars suggested Jiahu symbol (7th millennium BC) was the earliest Chinese writing system [35]

 

[Willtor]

So you hear inanimate objects speaking to you?

If you read Genesis 1 you will notice something interesting. EVERYTHING that was created was in its mature state. Birds were created in flocks. Oceans became teeming with fish immediately. Trees bearing fruit pre-dated the sun. Adam could walk and talk immediately. There is NOT ONE SINGLE ITEM in creation that needed even a few thousand years to be in its ready state. You say that scientists "hear the voice of the earth." Rubbish! Science is the study of the physical world around us. It takes what is know and extrapolates into the unknown and sometimes unknowable. We see things in their mature state and assume age; like a tall oak tree that we presume must be 100 years old. Science can't account for the fact that God could simply will a forest full of them and they would exist.

God TOLD US how old the world is, how He created it, WHY He created it, why He will destroy it, and why we have an eternal destiny. You're listening to the wrong voices.

It's much more than that, though. Consider, for example, stars that you can see with your own eyes that don't exist and never did because the world is only ~6,000 years old and they went nova more than 6,000 years ago. Consider also animals that never lived because the appearance of age puts their deaths at more than 6,000 years ago.

If the world is 6,000 years old, what are these things for? It isn't merely that a tree is created fully grown with rings -- it's that there are dead trees that were never alive.

 

[Colter]

It's much more than that, though. Consider, for example, stars that you can see with your own eyes that don't exist and never did because the world is only ~6,000 years old and they went nova more than 6,000 years ago. Consider also animals that never lived because the appearance of age puts their deaths at more than 6,000 years ago.

If the world is 6,000 years old, what are these things for? It isn't merely that a tree is created fully grown with rings -- it's that there are dead trees that were never alive.

I like this 80,000 year old Aspen grove.
http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/utah-aspen-grove-80000-years-old.html

 

[Calminian]

Its not true that cultures around the world believe in Noah's flood, just floods great and small because floods happen all the time.

You clearly haven't done your homework on this. Better skeptics are coming up with better objections, like immigration arguments from the mideast. I highly recommend Martin's book for all skeptics that want to sharpen their game on this.

God is eternal and perfect, he doesn't make mistakes and it didn't work, man is just as wicked as he ever was.

Do you have children? Did you know in advance they would make mistakes? Do you feel your children are a mistake?

The flood story is a fabrication on the part of the Hebrews....

And now you're resorting to assertions because you've run out of arguments. The problem is, I can answer a assertion with another assertion—The flood story is not a fabrication—Chinese history is not more accurate than biblical history, etc.

Now if you have some arguments, let's hear them.