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Is Genesis literal or a myth

Jimlarmore

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I think Jim you are under the misapprehension that your experience on some origins website is the sum total of of the situation. I have seen what you have used as evidence and I can see why they would be brutal toward you. You asserted that there were human footprints along with dinosaur footprints. You even held to that belief after I posted our own SDA creation science website that debunked that view.

The SDA website that you say debunks the human foot prints with dino are at GlenRose Texas in the Paluxy river. I think there are genuine human tracks there because I have seen them personally but obviously some of them were faked in the past so all of them are suspect at this point. There are many more cases all over the world that were not faked and evidence like chains and silver spoons found in cretacous coal or a hammer found in a concretion in west Texas.

The problem you have is you accept everything you read that comes from the mainstream paradigms like talkorigins as the absolute truth. You do this instead of considering they have a slanted bias to reject anything that disproves or goes against what they have set up as accepted theory. I can give you several cases where main stream paradigms have been shown to be wrong in the past so there is no reason to think that they are infallible now. Good scientists should question everything for validity and base their theories on observable evidence. I've personally seen good solid evidence discounted or thrown out without a good look to even see if what it appeared to be was real or not.

Then you use out of context verses like Isaiah 28: 9-10 and say that this is how commentaries use the verse. It is simply wrong .

Let me quote the SDA Bible commentary on this verse , it's found on page 210 of volume # 4.

"PRECEPT ON PRECEPT", "Truth must be presented clearly and logically ,one point leading naturally on to another. Only thus can men become thoroughly acquainted with truth. Instruction must be given as if to children by repeating the same point again and again and going on from one point to another by easy and gentle degrees as men whose minds have been drunkened by sin to follow. Such instruction may appear simple but it is effective. "

You seem to want to make a big deal from the context as an invalidation of what I said this text meant but this expositor does not share your opinion.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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freeindeed2

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Let me quote the SDA Bible commentary on this verse , it's found on page 210 of volume # 4.

"PRECEPT ON PRECEPT", "Truth must be presented clearly and logically ,one point leading naturally on to another. Only thus can men become thoroughly acquainted with truth. Instruction must be given as if to children by repeating the same point again and again and going on from one point to another by easy and gentle degrees as men whose minds have been drunkened by sin to follow. Such instruction may appear simple but it is effective. "

You seem to want to make a big deal from the context as an invalidation of what I said this text meant but this expositor does not share your opinion.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
Of course the SDA commentaries will support the SDA view. Are they your only source for support in how you use these verses? Do other commentaries say the same thing?
 
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Jimlarmore

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Of course the SDA commentaries will support the SDA view. Are they your only source for support in how you use these verses? Do other commentaries say the same thing?

I believe lightfoot and young say essentially the same thing do you want me to quote them for you?

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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PRECEPT ON PRECEPT", "Truth must be presented clearly and logically ,one point leading naturally on to another. Only thus can men become thoroughly acquainted with truth. Instruction must be given as if to children by repeating the same point again and again and going on from one point to another by easy and gentle degrees as men whose minds have been drunkened by sin to follow. Such instruction may appear simple but it is effective. "
Really they say that is the meaning of Isa 28:9-10 ? Now how do they fit that into the context?

Or maybe they are merely following Ellen White who rips it out of context and inserts a new message:

The Lord has instructed me to say to our churches: There is no safety in placing confidence in human wisdom or strength. "Whom shall he teach knowledge?" the prophet Isaiah asks; "and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest where with ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. {RH, March 19, 1908 par. 2}
So I can understand that the SDA commentary is trying to serve two masters.

But feel free to expand upon the great Biblical understanding of the 17-1800's because as we all know that was the pinnicle of human understanding of the sciences, language and just plain scholarship in general. (that was sarcasm in case you did not know.)

Of course the point of this is not that instruction whether from God or any other source is developed by adding precepts to precepts but this is not what the verse in Isaiah is instructing in regards to Bible study. Taking here a little and there a little is a sure fire method of distorting any written material.

As for the silver spoons which seem to hold your acceptance of man and dinasaur's together, why is it that the SDA Creation science people are so guillible as to not see the conspiracy to hide from all of us the evidence that you say exists. Should not you be communicating it to them so that they can declare it loudly?

Personally I discount most conspiracy theories, and I think that is all you have, but feel free to show us the evidence.
 
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Jimlarmore

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Really they say that is the meaning of Isa 28:9-10 ? Now how do they fit that into the context?

Or maybe they are merely following Ellen White who rips it out of context and inserts a new message:

There is a point to make using context however, in this case the context you quote does not refute or invalidate the verse in contention. The context may modify it but it does not refute it.

So I can understand that the SDA commentary is trying to serve two masters.

But feel free to expand upon the great Biblical understanding of the 17-1800's because as we all know that was the pinnicle of human understanding of the sciences, language and just plain scholarship in general. (that was sarcasm in case you did not know.)

Here lately, I have seen a lot of your sarcasm and quite frankly I think it serves to impune your witness. You may want to tone it back a little, ( just a suggestion :) ). The 1700's and on are well within the modern era of understanding for most of the Bible doctrines. I'm not saying they had it all correct but a lot can be learned from 17th and 18th century Biblical scholarship.

Of course the point of this is not that instruction whether from God or any other source is developed by adding precepts to precepts but this is not what the verse in Isaiah is instructing in regards to Bible study. Taking here a little and there a little is a sure fire method of distorting any written material.

You are quite wrong my friend. The Bible has unity of theme's thru out and by taking texts on certain topics from one area and comparing it with the texts from another area is a sure fire way to confirm the soundness of any truth from God. Take for instance the state of the dead or hell-fire. You can't get the truth from the Bible from just one verse, you have to take a lot of them and compare them all to one another to see if they are harmonious with one another. The more texts you can find that say the same thing the more solid that truth is.

As for the silver spoons which seem to hold your acceptance of man and dinasaur's together, why is it that the SDA Creation science people are so guillible as to not see the conspiracy to hide from all of us the evidence that you say exists. Should not you be communicating it to them so that they can declare it loudly?

If you want to educate yourself on this do a google on brain police and read some of the articles that pop up.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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I wrote:
Of course the point of this is not that instruction whether from God or any other source is developed by adding precepts to precepts but this is not what the verse in Isaiah is instructing in regards to Bible study. Taking here a little and there a little is a sure fire method of distorting any written material.

Jim wrote:
You are quite wrong my friend.
What!? What could I be wrong about there?
"Of course the point of this is not that instruction whether from God or any other source is developed by adding precepts to precepts but this is not what the verse in Isaiah is instructing in regards to Bible study. "

Is that wrong, you really think the point of Isaiah 28 is about how to study the Bible?


"Taking here a little and there a little is a sure fire method of distorting any written material."

Is that wrong? You must want to agree with people like that Kansas pastor who goes around with "God hates [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] signs" because he is real good at taking here a little and there a little. You may not like my sarcasm but it often comes out of frustration from the use of really illogical statements. And what you wrote above seems a dosey

There is a point to make using context however, in this case the context you quote does not refute or invalidate the verse in contention. The context may modify it but it does not refute it.

What is that? What is the overiding method of interpretation of any written material? It is context. The context does not modify it, it defines it. The context does not refute the context, though the context can certainly refute meaning which is inserted by ignoring the context. Assuming that people can understand simply rules of logic.
 
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djconklin

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Of course the SDA commentaries will support the SDA view. Are they your only source for support in how you use these verses? Do other commentaries say the same thing?

Do you have proof that they don't?

From http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/isa28-29.htm
"Verses 10-13: "precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;" Hypocritical formalism is condemned: This passage is often accommodated to show that we should learn each precept of the Bible clearly and repeatedly. However, without inner conversion, this produces a dead formalism and this method rather than being suggested, rote learning of the precepts of religious truth is ridiculed here rather than urged. This is made clearer in the next chapter in the following verse: "29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: "

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, Look. This is the comfort which you may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the LORD was to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Verse 13: precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; The repetition of this phrase is in a context of ridicule. The outward performance of ritual learning does little to change the heart. It is not that they did not know the scriptures and the cardinal doctrines of the Torah,--on the contrary they had learned them by heart but they did not know the truth nor experience a sense of obedience to YHWH."

Matthew Henry Commentary on Isaiah Chapter 28 @ http://bible.christiansunite.com/mhcc.cgi?b=Isa&c=28

"Verses 5-15: The prophet next turns to Judah, whom he calls the residue of his people. Happy are those alone, who glory in the Lord of hosts himself. Hence his people get wisdom and strength for every service and every conflict. But it is only in Christ Jesus that the holy God communicates with sinful man. And whether those that teach are drunk with wine, or intoxicated with false doctrines and notions concerning the kingdom and salvation of the Messiah, they not only err themselves, but lead multitudes astray. All places where such persons have taught are filled with errors. For our instruction in the things of God, it is needful that the same precept and the same line should be often repeated to us, that we may the better understand them. God, by his word, calls us to what is really for our advantage; the service of God is the only true rest for those weary of the service of sin, and there is no refreshment but under the easy yoke of the Lord Jesus. All this had little effect upon the people. Those who will not understand what is plain, but scorn and despise it as mean and trifling, are justly punished. If we are at peace with God, we have, in effect, made a covenant with death; whenever it comes, it cannot do us any real damage, if we are Christ's. But to think of making death our friend, while by sin we are making God our enemy, is absurd. And do not they make lies their refuge who trust in their own righteousness, or to a death-bed repentance? which is a resolution to sin no more, when it is no longer in their power to do so."

John Wesley Commentary @ http://bible.christiansunite.com/wes.cgi?b=Isa&c=28

"10: For - They must be taught like little children, because of their great dullness. Line - One line of the book after another, as children are taught to read.

...
13: Here a little - As this method has been used and was altogether necessary for them; so it still is, and for the future shall be. As they were children in understanding, they shall still continue to be such; they shall be ever learning, and never come to the knowledge of the truth. That - This will be the event, or consequence of their sin: they will fall backward, which is the worst, and most dangerous way of falling; and so be broken to pieces."

Geneva Study Bible @ http://bible.christiansunite.com/gen.cgi?b=Isa&c=28

"28:10 For i precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little: (i) They must have one thing often repeated."
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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The other thing you have to remember is that in many commentaries a verse is mentioned and then the commentator goes off on a tangent, Matthew Henry and John Wesley really do that a lot.

I like commentaries that give more verse only material such as this from Adam Clarke's Commentary:
Verse 10. For precept must be upon precept
The original is remarkably abrupt and sententious. The hemistichs are these:-

latsav tsav latsav tsav ki lakav kav lakav kav sham zeeir sham zeeir For,-Command to command, command to command. Line to line, line to line. A little there, a little there.
Kimchi says tsav, precept, is used here for mitsvah, command, and is used in no other place for it but here. tsav signifies a little precept, such as is suited to the capacity of a child; see Isaiah 28:9. kav signifies the line that a mason stretches out to build a layer of stones by. After one layer or course is placed, he raises the line and builds another; thus the building is by degrees regularly completed. This is the method of teaching children, giving them such information as their narrow capacities can receive; and thus the prophet dealt with the Israelites. See Kimchi in loc., and see a fine parallel passage, Hebrews 5:12-14, by which this may be well illustrated.
My old MS. Bible translates oddly:-
For sende efter sende, sende efter sende: Abide efter abiide, abiide efter abiide: Lytyl ther, lytyl ther. Coverdale is also singular:-
Commande that may be commanded; Byd that maye be bydden: Foorbyd that maye be forbydden; Kepe backe that maye be kepte backe: Here a litle, there a litle.
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=isa&chapter=028
 
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freeindeed2

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It's amazing how a thread can get side tracked. It's also amazing how two people can see things so totally differently. Thanks DJ for that post. Indeed, these texts are about the way we learn truth from God which some here have said is not the case.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
That passage is not a prescription for how to study the Scriptures though. The results would be disasterous as one could make the Bible say whatever they wanted it to and claim that it was all biblical. Strange doctrines result from applying that passage to interpreting the Bible.
 
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djconklin

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Of course the SDA commentaries will support the SDA view. Are they your only source for support in how you use these verses? Do other commentaries say the same thing?
Do you have proof that they don't?

We're still waiting.
 
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freeindeed2

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Glad to hear. "Here a little, there a little" is not a sound formula for biblical interpretation. That's how denominations end up with strange aberrant doctrines that are not accepted by most Christian Bible expositors.:D

Researcher Dave, what you presented is not a reference to interpreting the Bible.
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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The other thing you have to remember is that in many commentaries a verse is mentioned and then the commentator goes off on a tangent, Matthew Henry and John Wesley really do that a lot.

Note the lack of support for the claim.
Have you never read Matthew Henry, come on look at the quote you gave from him. I should not have said John Wesley because he is not as tangential in his explanatory notes they are often short. I was thinking it was Adam Clarke, but on this verse he was pretty succinct. So I did not put him in there though I really think in other areas he does run off on a tangents. Word Bible Commentary is probably the most tangential but it is not available on line.

Oh and this is interesing:
John Wesley's Explanatory Notes Upon the Old Testament were printed between 1765-6. He relied upon Matthew Henry, but stated openly that he had edited out all Henry's references to the doctrine of "absolute, irrespective, unconditional predestination." Wesley also relied on the commentary of Matthew Poole. -- John Wesley's Commentary on the Bible Reviewed by Dr. Vic Rasoner
http://www.fwponline.cc/v16n1reasonera.html
 
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Jimlarmore

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Glad to hear. "Here a little, there a little" is not a sound formula for biblical interpretation. That's how denominations end up with strange aberrant doctrines that are not accepted by most Christian Bible expositors.:D

Researcher Dave, what you presented is not a reference to interpreting the Bible.

The text is specifically speaking of instruction. We receive instruction from the Bible. The terms "here a little there a little" are actually said to be like a stammering of the speach because of child like understanding. Also the concept of "a little" can be viewed as relative. If you take "little" to mean one part of a sentence or maybe just a word or tow then I would agree with what you are saying. However, if "little" could be considered to be several sentences or verses then I would disagree with what you say. In the end to my way of thinking it can be taken either way. Certainly there was scripture around to be studied in Isaiah's time and even though scripture is not mentioned here the concept of this can be applied to studying the Bible.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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djconklin

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Glad to hear. "Here a little, there a little" is not a sound formula for biblical interpretation. That's how denominations end up with strange aberrant doctrines that are not accepted by most Christian Bible expositors.:D

Researcher Dave, what you presented is not a reference to interpreting the Bible.
You haven't yet produced any evidence to support your claims.
 
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djconklin

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The other thing you have to remember is that in many commentaries a verse is mentioned and then the commentator goes off on a tangent, Matthew Henry and John Wesley really do that a lot.

Note the lack of support for the claim.

Have you never read Matthew Henry, come on look at the quote you gave from him.

Here's the Bible verses Matthew Henry is commenting on:

5In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

6And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
7But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Here's his comment:

"The prophet next turns to Judah, whom he calls the residue of his people. Happy are those alone, who glory in the Lord of hosts himself. Hence his people get wisdom and strength for every service and every conflict. But it is only in Christ Jesus that the holy God communicates with sinful man. And whether those that teach are drunk with wine, or intoxicated with false doctrines and notions concerning the kingdom and salvation of the Messiah, they not only err themselves, but lead multitudes astray. All places where such persons have taught are filled with errors. For our instruction in the things of God, it is needful that the same precept and the same line should be often repeated to us, that we may the better understand them. God, by his word, calls us to what is really for our advantage; the service of God is the only true rest for those weary of the service of sin, and there is no refreshment but under the easy yoke of the Lord Jesus. All this had little effect upon the people. Those who will not understand what is plain, but scorn and despise it as mean and trifling, are justly punished. {my emphasis} If we are at peace with God, we have, in effect, made a covenant with death; whenever it comes, it cannot do us any real damage, if we are Christ's. But to think of making death our friend, while by sin we are making God our enemy, is absurd. And do not they make lies their refuge who trust in their own righteousness, or to a death-bed repentance? which is a resolution to sin no more, when it is no longer in their power to do so."

1) It appears that Matthew Henry is sticking pretty close to the text.
2) You said "many commentaries" go "off on a tangent"; last I checked, one is not many.

Oh and this is interesing:

Quote:
John Wesley's Explanatory Notes Upon the Old Testament were printed between 1765-6. He relied upon Matthew Henry, but stated openly that he had edited out all Henry's references to the doctrine of "absolute, irrespective, unconditional predestination." Wesley also relied on the commentary of Matthew Poole. -- John Wesley's Commentary on the Bible Reviewed by Dr. Vic Rasoner

Interesting, yes; but, not relevant to this discussion. John Wesley also edited his brother's hymns to make sure that they were theologically correct.
 
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freeindeed2

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Here's the Bible verses Matthew Henry is commenting on:

5In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

6And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
7But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Here's his comment:

"The prophet next turns to Judah, whom he calls the residue of his people. Happy are those alone, who glory in the Lord of hosts himself. Hence his people get wisdom and strength for every service and every conflict. But it is only in Christ Jesus that the holy God communicates with sinful man. And whether those that teach are drunk with wine, or intoxicated with false doctrines and notions concerning the kingdom and salvation of the Messiah, they not only err themselves, but lead multitudes astray. All places where such persons have taught are filled with errors. For our instruction in the things of God, it is needful that the same precept and the same line should be often repeated to us, that we may the better understand them. God, by his word, calls us to what is really for our advantage; the service of God is the only true rest for those weary of the service of sin, and there is no refreshment but under the easy yoke of the Lord Jesus. All this had little effect upon the people. Those who will not understand what is plain, but scorn and despise it as mean and trifling, are justly punished. {my emphasis} If we are at peace with God, we have, in effect, made a covenant with death; whenever it comes, it cannot do us any real damage, if we are Christ's. But to think of making death our friend, while by sin we are making God our enemy, is absurd. And do not they make lies their refuge who trust in their own righteousness, or to a death-bed repentance? which is a resolution to sin no more, when it is no longer in their power to do so."

1) It appears that Matthew Henry is sticking pretty close to the text.
2) You said "many commentaries" go "off on a tangent"; last I checked, one is not many.



Interesting, yes; but, not relevant to this discussion. John Wesley also edited his brother's hymns to make sure that they were theologically correct.
The quotes you're responding to in this post are not mine (freeindeed2).
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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2) You said "many commentaries" go "off on a tangent"; last I checked, one is not many.

As this is not the subject I don't feel a real need to go and show someone who has read little commentaries what would be fairly obvious had he spent much time reading them.

Your type of argumentation is really worthless and it adds little to any discussion. It is rather like a child saying "well I don't see that prove it to me". Certainly fine for a child but not all that cute in an adult.

I don't really care if you believe me or not David. You can either prove my statements wrong which would be a valuable service or you could ignore them and not believe anything I say, But this constant childish interjections don't do much for anybody. This is just so silly, Why do you think there is a Concise Matthew Henry's commentary anyway? Do you think maybe because his complete commentary was a bit long and wandered about a bit. Deal in the real world and I think we will all be a lot happier.
 
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freeindeed2

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The text is specifically speaking of instruction. We receive instruction from the Bible. The terms "here a little there a little" are actually said to be like a stammering of the speach because of child like understanding. Also the concept of "a little" can be viewed as relative. If you take "little" to mean one part of a sentence or maybe just a word or tow then I would agree with what you are saying. However, if "little" could be considered to be several sentences or verses then I would disagree with what you say. In the end to my way of thinking it can be taken either way. Certainly there was scripture around to be studied in Isaiah's time and even though scripture is not mentioned here the concept of this can be applied to studying the Bible.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
What exactly do you think I'm saying? I just don't believe it to be a 'good' way to interpret the Bible and establish doctrine. A good example of the dangers of doing this is in the 15 proofs of William Miller (which I've posted all of in the original now). Go and read Proof #15 and you'll see the 'here a little, there a little' method being utilized by Miller. The outcome is aweful and distorts Scripture to say what it does not.

Any group, movement, or denomination that utilizes this method for arriving at doctrine would defend it. So I expect that from SDA's. I learned how to do this in SDA theology classes in all three SDA universities I was at. It's perfectly 'normal' to establish the distinct SDA doctrines. But it's not a truly systematic approach to Bible interpretation.

Go read all 15 proofs! You'll see how bad it really is.
 
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