Is freemasonry acceptable for Orthodox?

[circuitrider]

Matt,

I appreciate your inquisitiveness. But to be equally blut, we are wasting our time. I can spend a lot of time making appeals to Protestant interpretations of scripture. You will then make appeals to Orthodox interpretations of scripture.

Since my Church and your Church both accept as valid statements of doctrine both the Nicene and Apostle's Creeds, I don't find there to be a point in argument about smaller details.

I'm glad the Orthodox Church helps you to meet Christ. But our original topic was Freemasonry. I didn't enter this thread to try to talk you out of Orthodox doctrine.

Bllessings on your pursuit of your faith.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Since my Church and your Church both accept as valid statements of doctrine both the Nicene and Apostle's Creeds, I don't find there to be a point in argument about smaller details.

well, yes and no. the problem is the understanding.

I'm glad the Orthodox Church helps you to meet Christ. But our original topic was Freemasonry. I didn't enter this thread to try to talk you out of Orthodox doctrine.

oh you won't talk me out of Orthodoxy and into Methodism (my father was raised Methodist and his side of the family still is), the thing is that this IS related to the freemason thing.

 

[circuitrider]

How about we get to that then Matt.

Let me preface this by sharing that I've been in ordained ministry for 25 years and that I have been a Freemason for 14 years. That isn't bragging. I'm just wanting you to know so that you can assume that I do know what my Church teaches as well as the primary teachings of Protestantism and that I know what Freemasonry teaches. I'm not a new Christian, a new clergy person, or a new Mason.

If you want to know about my background in either I'll be happy to discuss that.

All that being said, what I see as relevant here is that your Church may teach that it is wrong to be a Mason. My Church does not.

Is there something else relevant in our discussion about different Christian faith groups that then applies to the discussion?

 

[ArmyMatt]

All that being said, what I see as relevant here is that your Church may teach that it is wrong to be a Mason. My Church does not.

Is there something else relevant in our discussion about different Christian faith groups that then applies to the discussion?

it's a matter of which (even if neither of us) have the proper authority, without personal opinion. I can give my opinion on the matter, and I can give what the Church teaches, etc. the question is where do we go to figure out which of us is correct and the other is not, or to find out that neither of us have it right? it's easy to say that no one does, and leave it at that, but can we really know?

 

[circuitrider]

Matt,

You are really trying to delve in the the question of epistomology. How can we know what is true.

You also seem to have a particular view of authority which may be a different frame of reference than mine. I'm in the Church I am in because years ministry, Bible study, theological study, etc. led me there. But ultimately I am where I am because I felt God lead me here.

I am a Mason because I spent a number of years study Freemasonry including Masonic and anti-masonic references and deemed it to be a worthy organization to join.

We all have to do our own studying, reading, praying, and learning and come to our own decisions. We also have to be open to God's leading through His Spirit.

I am not a Christian because I studied Christianity. I am a Christian because I have experienced the grace of Jesus Christ. The point of being a Christian isn't to know an authority, it is to know Jesus. If you don't have a relationship with Jesus no amount of theological studying will make you a Christian. Relationship with Christ is much more important than what Church you belong to or having some perfect doctrinal knowledge. Faith is from the heart not the head.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am not a Christian because I studied Christianity. I am a Christian because I have experienced the grace of Jesus Christ. The point of being a Christian isn't to know an authority, it is to know Jesus.

I know and I agree, but we are to speak the Truth, and to know Christ is to know the Truth. so if I say something about Christ, and you say something else, one of us is preaching the True Christ and the other is not. Mormons say they have a relationship with Christ, and that is what they base their evangelism on. the problem is not their desire for a belief in Christ, but all the garbage they say about Him. we are to test the spirits, as it were.

You are really trying to delve in the the question of epistomology. How can we know what is true.

indeed I am. to seek Truth is to seek Christ.

You also seem to have a particular view of authority which may be a different frame of reference than mine.

of course I do, that is the point. one of us must be correct and the other not, so how can we figure out who is?

We all have to do our own studying, reading, praying, and learning and come to our own decisions. We also have to be open to God's leading through His Spirit.

and we have to submit to what is true even if we don't like or understand it. if the RC is correct and purgatory is real, my opinion on the matter is moot. it's there whether I like it or not. so we must seek the Truth above all, because that is how we find Christ. so how do we do that? where do we go to figure out and learn from our differences?

 

[circuitrider]

No Matt, to seek Christ is to seek the truth.

I'm afraid you are stuck in a logical loop of thinking that being a Christian is like a math equation and that if you balance out all the factors you'll come to propositional knowledge of God.

Forgive me for using a Methodist example. But John Wesley sought to know Christ for his whole life seeking to do all he could do to know as much about theology, proper Christian behavior, holy living, and right belief and he found no peace, no joy, and no assurance.

It was not until he grasped in a service of worship at Aldersgate that it was by grace and grace alone that he could know God that his heart was "strangely warmed" and he knew that he did trust God and that God loved him and was redeeming him.

You seek Christ and then you find the truth. You don't find the truth in rules, doctrines, dogmas, and "one true Churches." Jesus is above all that. The one true Church consists of all the follows of Christ in all the Churches in the world, not in any single organized institutional church structure.

If you and I know Jesus than each of us are as right as we need to be.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm afraid you are stuck in a logical loop of thinking that being a Christian is like a math equation and that if you balance out all the factors you'll come to propositional knowledge of God

no, if you knew about Orthodoxy you would know this is very untrue

Forgive me for using a Methodist example. But John Wesley sought to know Christ for his whole life seeking to do all he could do to know as much about theology, proper Christian behavior, holy living, and right belief and he found no peace, no joy, and no assurance.

It was not until he grasped in a service of worship at Aldersgate that it was by grace and grace alone that he could know God that his heart was "strangely warmed" and he knew that he did trust God and that God loved him and was redeeming him.

that's fine, but what did he use to verify the experience was of God, and not from his own fallenness or demonic deception? is there any standard to use? every cult on the planet used warmness, or peace feelings to think they are legit.

You seek Christ and then you find the truth.

wrong, Christ said I am the True. you seek Christ and you seek Truth, they are one in the same.

You don't find the truth in rules, doctrines, dogmas, and "one true Churches."

Christ, who calls Himself the Truth, says the Church is His Body and the NT calls the Church the pillar and ground of Truth. so yeah, there is One true Church

The one true Church consists of all the follows of Christ in all the Churches in the world, not in any single organized institutional church structure.

while this is a common thing, it is not Biblical or historic, and it makes Truth relative. Truth, being a Person, is not relative. It is either of Christ or not.

If you and I know Jesus than each of us are as right as we need to be.

see above.

 

[circuitrider]

Matt,

I'm not speaking about Orthodoxy. I'm speaking about how you are posting here. Unless you are an Orthodox Bishop, I assume you are representing your own views.

You seem to be arguing that a perfect knowlege will lead you to faith in Christ. But I'm saying that there is no way to understand the truth without Christ first. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

Not in the beginning were the doctrines of the Church or in the beginning was the Bible. Jesus first, all else comes second.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'm speaking about how you are posting here. Unless you are an Orthodox Bishop, I assume you are representing your own views.

my views are not contrary to my bishop

You seem to be arguing that a perfect knowlege will lead you to faith in Christ. But I'm saying that there is no way to understand the truth without Christ first.

no, I am saying that since Truth is Christ, there is no way to come to Christ without seeking Truth, and there is no way to seek Truth without seeking Christ.

Not in the beginning were the doctrines of the Church or in the beginning was the Bible. Jesus first, all else comes second.

the problem is that what Christ left were His teachings that He told His Apostles in His Church. He told them that the Holy Spirit would recall all that He taught them, and He said that salvation is to know the One True God and Father, and the One Whom He sent in John's Gospel.

so yes, Christ first, but you cannot divorce Him from what He left and what He taught.