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The concept of free will popped up in a discussion I have with @Sanoy. I think it should have its own thread to keep things a little tidy.
Is free will real? Can it be real, given what we know about natural laws? Is it truly possible, philosophically speaking?
There are different conceptions of what free will means. What I mean by it is something like this: the ability to make a choice (or think of something) without that choice being determined by something else. For example, you can use your will to choose pizza over tacos, but is it a free choice? Do you pick one over the other for no reason? Or is it in fact determined by, say, that you just don't happen to like the taste of one of them (which obviously isn't something you freely chose)?
What would be an example of truly free will being exercised?
(Posted in this subforum because it has implications for how we think about morality.)
In that they just do it - having no free will themselves and all that.Yes it does. How can you be held responsible for something you had no free will to prevent?
In that they just do it - having no free will themselves and all that.
I guess I need a clear idea as to what exactly you mean by "holding responsible".
If an apple is rotten, I will throw it in the trash - even though I am assuming it has no free will to prevent rotting.
True justice would be something like an eye for an eye, which nobody really wants.Punishment for breaking the law is not revenge. It is justice. And to have Justice, one must believe people are not created robots, but could have done otherwise.
Well, in the same way you have a "right" to "punish" an apple for being rotten. You don´t need any "right" to do that.Okay, let's say you come up to me and pour a glass of water over my head.
Do I have the right to punish you for it?
If you have free will, yes I do, because you made the choice to pour the water over me.
You might do it, just like I did what I did. Since you have no free will either....If you do not have free will, how can I punish you?
And you don´t make the choice to do whatever you will do...You didn't make the choice to pour water over me.
And so are you.You couldn't have done anything to prevent it from happening. You were just along for the ride as your body carried out the actions that were unavoidable.
I'm wrestling with the idea of justice these days. Justice entails, I think, that the offended party/victim, is restored what was lost. This could include some equivalence in money for things that cannot be returned exactly as it was taken. It could include money for the cost of the inconvenience. (You steal my car, not only do I not have my car, but I'm paying for taxis.) If the offender lacks resources, the state could pay me and work out other means of recovering the losses from the criminal.True justice would be something like an eye for an eye, which nobody really wants.
Well, in the same way you have a "right" to "punish" an apple for being rotten. You don´t need any "right" to do that.
You might do it, just like I did what I did. Since you have no free will either....
And you don´t make the choice to do whatever you will do...
And so are you.
Exactly. Sorry, I lost my liking posts privilege, because of exercising my free will.you do not have free will, how can I punish you? You didn't make the choice to pour water over me. You couldn't have done anything to prevent it from happening. You were just along for the ride as your body carried out the actions that were unavoidable.
Well, you don´t call it "punishing", but you exert negative actions upon it. So if an apple or an object doesn´t have "free will", we can and do act against it if we see fit. Why would that be different with humans if they don´t have "free will"?Punish an apple for being rotten? What? Do you send it to its room and tell it it isn't going to have any dessert until it learns how to be fresh again?
Yes, and punishing an apple for being rotten is just silly.
I was under the impression that this was the very hypothetical scenario in discussion: We don´t have "free will".You have yet to show that.
Well, you don´t call it "punishing", but you exert negative actions upon it. So if an apple or an object doesn´t have "free will", we can and do act against it if we see fit. Why would that be different with humans if they don´t have "free will"?
I was under the impression that this was the very hypothetical scenario in discussion: We don´t have "free will".
Yes, because that´s what punishment amounts to, practically.Well, I was talking about punishment, so already that goalpost has been moved. And now you're talking about "negative actions." What does that mean?
And I was showing that - unless you are hung up on the word "punishment" and thus play semantics - we can take the same actions with or without them having "free will": inflicting negative actions on the entities in question (incarcarating them, killing them, harming them otherwise).I was using argument from absurdity, showing that a result of the assumption that we don't have free will is absurd. It's absurd to punish someone for actions they have no control over.
Yes, because that´s what punishment amounts to, practically.
And I was showing that - unless you are hung up on the word "punishment" and thus play semantics - we can take the same actions with or without them having "free will": inflicting negative actions on the entities in question (incarcarating them, killing them, harming them otherwise).
Secondly, if we also assume that we ourselves don´t have "free will" either, your argument from absurdity flies even less: In that case we just do what we are determined to do. So "How can we...?" isn´t even a valid question. We just do it.
Of course there are cases, in which I taking negative actions against something isn´t possible or doesn´t help.I'm asking you to define "negative action." Are you suggesting that punish and negative action are identical in meaning? So if I find a rotten apple, do I send it to bed without any support as a negative action? Perhaps take away it's internet privileges?
Why do you punish someone? I'm gonna guess that it's because they have done something that harms you. But now you are saying that negative action is the same thing, and you take negative action against something that harms you, even if it's a mindless process. If there's a storm that blows a tree down on your car, who do you punish - uh, take the negative action against? The storm for blowing? The tree for falling? The car for not moving?
Why would that be strange? We are trying to survive, so we take these actions to protect us. What might be considered strange is that we call these actions "punishment".But it seems strange then that we are always predestined to punish those who harm us through no fault of their own.
I don´t think there is such an entity, and it´s neither the topic of this thread, nor relevant for the post that initiated our thought exchange.How can you justify such a system existing when there is a loving and fair God?
If punishing offenders is the best way to keep society safe, then by all means let's do that. If it's just because we'd like to get revenge, let's rather not.Yes it does. How can you be held responsible for something you had no free will to prevent?
Of course there are cases, in which I taking negative actions against something isn´t possible or doesn´t help.
But I guess we are talking about living entities? So, even if I don´t assume a dangerous animal to have "free will" I will take negative action (stop feeding; injuring, incarcerating, killing...) against it. But, yes, still no taking away of internet privileges.
Why would that be strange? We are trying to survive, so we take these actions to protect us. What might be considered strange is that we call these actions "punishment".
I don´t think there is such an entity, and it´s neither the topic of this thread, nor relevant for the post that initiated our thought exchange.
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