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Alistair_Wonderland

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True free will is insanity.
Actually, I'm only half-joking. Insanity is certainly a way to act against your upbringing and environment. Is insanity an aspect of free will? Many great thinkers were considered a little mad. Or maybe I'm just saying this because I'm a huge Alice in Wonderland fan and have a few screws loose myself.

Food for thought: if we have no free will, could we ever discover that we don't?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Libertarian free will is a myth. One is only free to act within his nature. That is why Christianity beings with a sovereign act of God. He causes spiritual rebirth, giving a new nature, with its matching characteristics.
 
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quatona

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Yes it does. How can you be held responsible for something you had no free will to prevent?
In that they just do it - having no free will themselves and all that.

I guess I need a clear idea as to what exactly you mean by "holding responsible".
If an apple is rotten, I will throw it in the trash - even though I am assuming it has no free will to prevent rotting.
 
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Kylie

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Okay, let's say you come up to me and pour a glass of water over my head.

Do I have the right to punish you for it?

If you have free will, yes I do, because you made the choice to pour the water over me.

If you do not have free will, how can I punish you? You didn't make the choice to pour water over me. You couldn't have done anything to prevent it from happening. You were just along for the ride as your body carried out the actions that were unavoidable.
 
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holo

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Punishment for breaking the law is not revenge. It is justice. And to have Justice, one must believe people are not created robots, but could have done otherwise.
True justice would be something like an eye for an eye, which nobody really wants.
 
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quatona

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Okay, let's say you come up to me and pour a glass of water over my head.

Do I have the right to punish you for it?
Well, in the same way you have a "right" to "punish" an apple for being rotten. You don´t need any "right" to do that.

If you have free will, yes I do, because you made the choice to pour the water over me.

If you do not have free will, how can I punish you?
You might do it, just like I did what I did. Since you have no free will either....
You didn't make the choice to pour water over me.
And you don´t make the choice to do whatever you will do...
You couldn't have done anything to prevent it from happening. You were just along for the ride as your body carried out the actions that were unavoidable.
And so are you.
 
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Tinker Grey

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True justice would be something like an eye for an eye, which nobody really wants.
I'm wrestling with the idea of justice these days. Justice entails, I think, that the offended party/victim, is restored what was lost. This could include some equivalence in money for things that cannot be returned exactly as it was taken. It could include money for the cost of the inconvenience. (You steal my car, not only do I not have my car, but I'm paying for taxis.) If the offender lacks resources, the state could pay me and work out other means of recovering the losses from the criminal.

The point here isn't the details, but rather we can imagine an equitable system of justice in such matters.

However, where is the justice in a rape case? A murder case? Can a life be restored? How does one measure the cost of the trauma of a rape victim? In the sense of restitution, there can be no justice.

What we can do is punish. This doesn't bring anything back to the one who lost it. But, free will or not (still on topic! ), we are bound by our evolution to preserve our species through cooperation. This entails protecting the general population from the actions of a few.

But what about justice for the criminal? For the offending party, a certain loss is justice. But our responsibilities to the criminal go beyond that, I think. This, though, is tricky. One might contend that the criminal gets no consideration. However, even the most draconian of penal systems imagine that the punishments they mete out are proportionate. I've read Jewish rabbis assert that "an eye for an eye" sets a maximum punishment, not a mandatory one.

So where do our responsibilities begin and end? (I'm just thinking "out loud", here.) First, I would argue that mere punishment is not just. It is vindictive and serves no purpose but to make the punisher feel better about their losses. Society, and hence the species, gains nothing from this. After a few thousand years, we're beginning to realize that chopping off someone's hand or foot is not, in fact, much of a deterrent--at least not to the will of the criminal. Perhaps the idea that there is no gain is not sufficient.

So, second, I'd argue that there is loss to society due to this vindictiveness. What I see is that people who relish punishment (for others) are themselves no great contributors to the species. Emphasizing punishment brings out encourages baser feelings, maybe tattle-tales, framing people, vengeance ("I'll see to it that they get theirs.") So, now what?

Third, as I've stated elsewhere punishment is not just if it is not rehabilitative at least where rehabilitation is possible (a Ted Bundy might not be possible.) At minimum, this idea fosters the hope that almost all mistakes are recoverable. This is good for society, so I would argue. If a thief gets educated in the slammer and becomes a surgeon, is not society benefited? Certainly compared to a cycle of recidivism. Others have pointed out that rehabilitation is more cost effective than mere punishment. I would hope that my idealized example points that way. Does this mean then that some might commit crimes to gain these societal benefits? Yeah, it might. So ...

Fourth, concepts of justice aren't just about crime but about what is due to the average member of society. We don't want John Doe stealing a car just so he can get a free education in prison. This then is the direction I think society must go (and some countries have already taken steps in that direction). If one can get an education without crippling debt, if one can get sick without crippling debt, if one can expect to eat, if one can expect not to freeze to death, then one is free to contribute to society. Not all will, but surely society will be better. And that's the goal isn't it?

Justice, then, entails that we take these steps to better society.
 
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Kylie

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Well, in the same way you have a "right" to "punish" an apple for being rotten. You don´t need any "right" to do that.

Punish an apple for being rotten? What? Do you send it to its room and tell it it isn't going to have any dessert until it learns how to be fresh again?

You might do it, just like I did what I did. Since you have no free will either....

Yes, and punishing an apple for being rotten is just silly.

I mean, they used to put animals on trial. We think that's silly these days, and animals have more free will than an apple does.

And you don´t make the choice to do whatever you will do...

And so are you.

You have yet to show that.
 
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renniks

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Exactly. Sorry, I lost my liking posts privilege, because of exercising my free will.
 
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quatona

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Punish an apple for being rotten? What? Do you send it to its room and tell it it isn't going to have any dessert until it learns how to be fresh again?



Yes, and punishing an apple for being rotten is just silly.
Well, you don´t call it "punishing", but you exert negative actions upon it. So if an apple or an object doesn´t have "free will", we can and do act against it if we see fit. Why would that be different with humans if they don´t have "free will"?




You have yet to show that.
I was under the impression that this was the very hypothetical scenario in discussion: We don´t have "free will".
 
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Kylie

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Well, I was talking about punishment, so already that goalpost has been moved. And now you're talking about "negative actions." What does that mean?

I was under the impression that this was the very hypothetical scenario in discussion: We don´t have "free will".

I was using argument from absurdity, showing that a result of the assumption that we don't have free will is absurd. It's absurd to punish someone for actions they have no control over.
 
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quatona

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Well, I was talking about punishment, so already that goalpost has been moved. And now you're talking about "negative actions." What does that mean?
Yes, because that´s what punishment amounts to, practically.



I was using argument from absurdity, showing that a result of the assumption that we don't have free will is absurd. It's absurd to punish someone for actions they have no control over.
And I was showing that - unless you are hung up on the word "punishment" and thus play semantics - we can take the same actions with or without them having "free will": inflicting negative actions on the entities in question (incarcarating them, killing them, harming them otherwise).
Secondly, if we also assume that we ourselves don´t have "free will" either, your argument from absurdity flies even less: In that case we just do what we are determined to do. So "How can we...?" isn´t even a valid question. We just do it.
 
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Kylie

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Yes, because that´s what punishment amounts to, practically.

I'm asking you to define "negative action." Are you suggesting that punish and negative action are identical in meaning? So if I find a rotten apple, do I send it to bed without any support as a negative action? Perhaps take away it's internet privileges?


Why do you punish someone? I'm gonna guess that it's because they have done something that harms you. But now you are saying that negative action is the same thing, and you take negative action against something that harms you, even if it's a mindless process. If there's a storm that blows a tree down on your car, who do you punish - uh, take the negative action against? The storm for blowing? The tree for falling? The car for not moving?

Secondly, if we also assume that we ourselves don´t have "free will" either, your argument from absurdity flies even less: In that case we just do what we are determined to do. So "How can we...?" isn´t even a valid question. We just do it.

But it seems strange then that we are always predestined to punish those who harm us through no fault of their own. How can you justify such a system existing when there is a loving and fair God? Did he set it up saying, "These people will have no control over their actions, all they can do is what I have foreseen they will do. But if I foresee they will do something naughty, they're going to get punished for it." That seems a little odd to me.
 
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quatona

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Of course there are cases, in which I taking negative actions against something isn´t possible or doesn´t help.
But I guess we are talking about living entities? So, even if I don´t assume a dangerous animal to have "free will" I will take negative action (stop feeding; injuring, incarcerating, killing...) against it. But, yes, still no taking away of internet privileges.



But it seems strange then that we are always predestined to punish those who harm us through no fault of their own.
Why would that be strange? We are trying to survive, so we take these actions to protect us. What might be considered strange is that we call these actions "punishment".
How can you justify such a system existing when there is a loving and fair God?
I don´t think there is such an entity, and it´s neither the topic of this thread, nor relevant for the post that initiated our thought exchange.
 
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holo

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Yes it does. How can you be held responsible for something you had no free will to prevent?
If punishing offenders is the best way to keep society safe, then by all means let's do that. If it's just because we'd like to get revenge, let's rather not.

Punishment works as a deterrent in many cases, but not all. The risk of a hefty fine will keep most of us below the speed limit. But jail and fines don't seem to work against, say, drug offences (which is thankfully why it's finally about to change in the civilized part of the world). And punishment seems to be a deterrent only to a certain degree. The death penalty doesn't seem to actually prevent people murdering each other.

Punishment might be a necessary component of keeping us civil, as it seems to be in the raising of kids (I'm not entirely sure you can't bring up a healthy child without ever punishing him or her though). It can be the right thing to do even if we realize that people couldn't in fact have done otherwise. It would mean that we may condemn the behaviour or punish/correct the action, but not laying moral blame on anyone.
 
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holo

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Heck, just imagine that for a minute. Going through life without making moral judgments of yourself and others. I don't mean like saying sickness is as good as health or violence as good as friendship, but with the attitude that no one person is truly at fault for any of this. Not the worst war criminal, not some gang member, not yourself. I think it would make me a much friendlier, patient and grateful person. Perhaps a new year's resolution?
 
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Billy UK

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Free will is the power of choice which evidently exists and is observable in faculty of the conscience in which we choose the path to walk down whether good or evil.

This is why God will use the conscience in judgement and why we all need mercy.

Romans 2:14-16 (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
 
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Billy UK

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Part of personal repentance is admitting before God that WE have sinned through choosing to submit to the evil we did asking forgiveness and cleansing for it. Choosing to shift the blame is what Adam and eve did in the garden and while the influence of evil came forth from Satan it doesn't change the fact that they chose to submit to it.

Psalm 32:5 (KJV)

5 I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah
 
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Kylie

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Woah, hold on there...

There's a big difference between stopping something from doing harm and taking punitive action.

If my coworker gets their tie caught in the office paper shredder and it starts pulling them in, then me turning off the power to the shredder is not me punishing the shredder.

If I was to start yelling at the shredder, "Look what you did! You've RUINED his tie! It was a gift from his wife, and now it's completely destroyed! Look how sad you've made him! That's it, IO'm leaving you unplugged for three days! No electricity for you!" That would be more like punishment, and people would look at me like I was insane.

Why would that be strange? We are trying to survive, so we take these actions to protect us. What might be considered strange is that we call these actions "punishment".

So we punish because we are trying to survive? What benefit can possibly come of it if everything is predestined?

I don´t think there is such an entity, and it´s neither the topic of this thread, nor relevant for the post that initiated our thought exchange.

Thanks for the clarification of your beliefs, however I disagree with you that it's not relevant. For our particular discussion, perhaps, since neither of us believes, but there are many people who do believe that God knows what we will do in the future.
 
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