Is free will real?

[Kylie]

It gives some constraints, but also a lot of freedom.

In what way?

I don't think you understand my point.

You are claiming that you can be predestined to eat a sandwich in an hour, yet predestination does not affect you while that hour passes. All you have to do is eat the sandwich.

I am pointing out that predestination DOES affect you during that hour, because in that hour during which you claim predestination does not affect you, you are predestined to survive.

 

[Kylie]

If taken to the extreme it makes for a very cold world-
no repentence, no forgiveness needed, it was all beforehand programmed.

The future is not for us to know.

We like to have control and think often we have control
until something unexpected happens.

So we can choose to either let us be guided on the path we should wander or left outside in the cold.

In that sense our fate is predestined.
We have been warned.

I don't see how this actually addresses the points I made. And you are contradicting yourself. If we are predestined to do something, it can't possibly be a choice.

 

[Robban]

I don't see how this actually addresses the points I made. And you are contradicting yourself. If we are predestined to do something, it can't possibly be a choice.

OK then, we are all predestined, some to destruction
some to everlasting life.

As for me, I am dependent on guidence from above,

As in the text of this song,

 

[Strathos]

In what way?

I don't think you understand my point.

You are claiming that you can be predestined to eat a sandwich in an hour, yet predestination does not affect you while that hour passes. All you have to do is eat the sandwich.

I am pointing out that predestination DOES affect you during that hour, because in that hour during which you claim predestination does not affect you, you are predestined to survive.

But there are an infinite number of different things I can do while I'm surviving in that hour.

 

[holo]

But there are an infinite number of different things I can do while I'm surviving in that hour.

Not infinite, because that would include the ability to run into traffic and such. Which, come to think of it, would be a very practical way of testing whether or not you're in fact predestined to do something next year: try shooting yourself in the head. If you somehow survive, you must have been predestined to something later. If you don't, then either it was your purpose to die, or you've outlived your purpose

Or a less macabre variant: if you're predestined to do something, you will end up doing it no matter what, so it really doesn't matter where you go or what you do because somehow you'll end up fulfilling your purpose regardless. And you can only hope your purpose is not that of a martyr.

 

[Strathos]

Not infinite, because that would include the ability to run into traffic and such. Which, come to think of it, would be a very practical way of testing whether or not you're in fact predestined to do something next year: try shooting yourself in the head. If you somehow survive, you must have been predestined to something later. If you don't, then either it was your purpose to die, or you've outlived your purpose

Or a less macabre variant: if you're predestined to do something, you will end up doing it no matter what, so it really doesn't matter where you go or what you do because somehow you'll end up fulfilling your purpose regardless. And you can only hope your purpose is not that of a martyr.

Just because there are some impossibilities doesn't mean the amount of choices is not infinite.

 

[Kylie]

OK then, we are all predestined, some to destruction
some to everlasting life.

As for me, I am dependent on guidence from above,

As in the text of this song,

That's very vague, I don't think you've actually addressed my points.

 

[Kylie]

But there are an infinite number of different things I can do while I'm surviving in that hour.

And an infinite number of things you can't do.

 

[Robban]

That's very vague, I don't think you've actually addressed my points.

What were your points again?

 

[Robban]

What were your points again?

I lost track,
and sometimes I fall asleep here behind the screen.

 

[Robban]

Don,t know where you gone Kylie but waiting gets boring.
So I will take a guess that you believe in Karma.

Karma or fate envelopes us all and all
that exists, everything is within a system.

But we can escape it, we can
reach beyond the system.
There is an escape hatch.

Through repentence.

 

[Strathos]

And an infinite number of things you can't do.

There are already an infinite amount of things I can't do. I can't fly like Superman, or read minds. Does that impact my free will?

 

[Kylie]

What were your points again?

Please re-read my post #176:

If only some events are predestined, those events have to occur no matter what.

That means that none of the non-predestined events can result in anything that would disrupt the predestined events.

That means the non-predestined events are predestined to not interrupt the predestined events.

Which means the non-predestined events are predestined.

This leads us to a contradiction. An event can not be both predestined and non-predestined at the same time. Thus, it is impossible for some events to be predestined while others are not. The only conclusion is that either no events at all are predestined, or everything is predestined.

Don,t know where you gone Kylie but waiting gets boring.
So I will take a guess that you believe in Karma.

Karma or fate envelopes us all and all
that exists, everything is within a system.

But we can escape it, we can
reach beyond the system.
There is an escape hatch.

Through repentence.

Sorry you got bored waiting for all of 42 minutes.

No, I do not believe in karma. What gave you the impression that I did?

 

[Kylie]

There are already an infinite amount of things I can't do. I can't fly like Superman, or read minds. Does that impact my free will?

Those things are different.

If you are predestined to eat a sandwich in an hour, then you can't kill yourself before then. There is no law of nature that prevents it; there is a perfectly plausible mechanism by which you could accomplish that goal, but a decision has been made that you can not do it, and the mechanism by which you are prevented from doing it is by removing your ability to choose to do it. If you could choose to do it, then there would be nothing stopping you.

You can't fly like superman because such an act would violate the laws of nature. There is no plausible mechanism.

 

[Strathos]

Those things are different.

If you are predestined to eat a sandwich in an hour, then you can't kill yourself before then. There is no law of nature that prevents it; there is a perfectly plausible mechanism by which you could accomplish that goal, but a decision has been made that you can not do it, and the mechanism by which you are prevented from doing it is by removing your ability to choose to do it. If you could choose to do it, then there would be nothing stopping you.

You can't fly like superman because such an act would violate the laws of nature. There is no plausible mechanism.

I could certainly choose to kill myself before eating the sandwich, I just wouldn't be successful, because something would happen that would prevent it. I could also try to fly like Superman, but I wouldn't be successful at that, either.

 

[Robban]

Please re-read my post #176:

If only some events are predestined, those events have to occur no matter what.

That means that none of the non-predestined events can result in anything that would disrupt the predestined events.

That means the non-predestined events are predestined to not interrupt the predestined events.

Which means the non-predestined events are predestined.

This leads us to a contradiction. An event can not be both predestined and non-predestined at the same time. Thus, it is impossible for some events to be predestined while others are not. The only conclusion is that either no events at all are predestined, or everything is predestined.


Sorry you got bored waiting for all of 42 minutes.

No, I do not believe in karma. What gave you the impression that I did?

If all things are predestined it would explain why being angry is idol worship.

Not accepting that certain things happen.

Pain is real, suffering is optional.

By pleading with the creator to change things and they change,
Is what was predestined being realized.

That is what the Creator is waiting for, that we call upon Him for help.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread is closed for staff review. This is not apologetics. ​