is fighting worth it?

[Silent Enigma]

There's been some heated debating on the forums on the topic of submission I was wondering what you all thought of the article this lady wrote.

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/Articles/200203MarApr ALONE.htm

 

[Cordy]

That I don’t think she gives very good advice.

Sure, she may have made mistakes in her marriages. And I agree with some of the things she says she wishes she could do again. But many of the things she says women should do are openings for a lot of heartache and abuse for women.

- A wife is supposed to accept and support her husband’s selfishness, temper tantrums and spiritually hypocritical actions?? -
I presently know a whole family that is totally falling apart because of this. Almost all the women in the family need counselling in order to live from day to day, and the doctor apparently says it is causing the heart problems that are killing the women. Statistically these marriages are both physically and emotionally unhealthy for women. I think one might as well just but a sign in front of their door saying “Welcome to Stepford!”

- Wives should not counter their husband’s opinion? - ...Yikes
Sometimes my husband will say something that I disagree with, and I will tell him. Of course! And he does the same with me (both ways with respect and love). We are supposed to help each other grow and be accountable to each other in Christ. When this is done in love, a relationship can absolutely flourish.

This woman sends the message that unless women not only submit, but support, accept and encourage terribly behaviour they are at risk of loosing their husbands. Hm… -change yourself out of the fear and tolerate being treated badly, for if you don’t your husband will leave you - … that is extremely unhealthy.

 

[faith177]

Its very interesting and I know there will be many different reactions to this article. I know there are many on who believe that you should not forgive any vices of men but are blind to there own. I am guilty of it, but I am honestly trying to live as she believes we should. I am trying to remind myself that it God who changes people not me and living in comtempt and judgement will not help my marriage only make it worse. I am not perfect I have alot of character flaws to work on, lots of logs to remove before I should start nagging my husband for sure. I think that if I point out all his flaws and get mad and try to change him how is he going to hear Gods voice.

It also is my character development that God will work on while I learn patience and forgiveness and grace in this marriage.

 

[hisbloodformysins]

I think it's a good article. I don't think it's about a women's place of submission as much as it's about treating your spouse well and not standing in the place of judgement over them. And she is simply telling it from her perspective. If it were a man, he'd have his own list of woulda shoulda coulda's.

 

[Crofter]

This sense of security seems to give them the feeling that they have the liberty to take a spiritually superior, adversarial stand in myriad ways against the wrongs, failures, and inadequacies of their husbands.

I think to make such idiotic assumptions and generalisations is madness. If the sense of security is genuine then the relationship is very good, balanced and loving... and in such a case you have more and more respect for your partner and see your own faults as being by far the greater!

From the description she gives of her ex... I'm not sure why a woman would marry such a guy... and if they discovered he was like this after the marriage she should tell him straight... change your ways or find the door.



Marriage is founded on mutual love and respect.




... however.. people are all different and some people sem to thrive on a rocky ride! I know couples who love to be mean to eachother and fight and argue...I guess they just have a different taste than we do... but I do wish they would do all this fighting in private.

but if I had I known and obeyed God’s plan for wives early in my marriage, my life could well have turned out very differently than it has.

This statement is unhealthy. In any aspect of life we screw up... we move on. But to blame herself for such a failed marriage is wrong... her only regret should be her lack of perception in chosing to share her life with the wrong guy for her. A person should not live in guilt in any way... but simply move on. No woman, or man should feel they should have lived permanently in a relationship that meant they must always tollerate abuse. If one makes a mistake... regret it and move on.

 

[hisbloodformysins]

Shoot Crofter, there are much worse marriages than this. Unfortunately we stuck in them to figure out how to work around it. I love what the lady says- to do your part in loving the person, and trusting God with the rest. Because for us to withhold love from someone is just as bad as the sin they commit against us. Yet sometimes we are so blinded by the plank in our own eyes- trying to pull the plank out of someone elses. Neither spouse has the right to withhold love and respect, regardless of who sins against whom first. That's the lot of the married persons. Having to learn how to opporate as one flesh and live in harmony with eachother.

 

[Crofter]

I don't think you should respect someone who uses anger against you and so on... and this strife is bad and damaging to children who need tio see ove in their parents relationship and not brokenness and strife and hostility. Better to live in different houses than live in a house together without love.

 

[Tangnefedd]

All I know is that from my point of view if I started being submissive and letting my husband rule my life, he would definitely divorce me. He cannot stand women who are submissive, it makes his feel sick!

 

[Crofter]

All I know is that from my point of view if I started being submissive and letting my husband rule my life, he would definitely divorce me. He cannot stand women who are submissive, it makes his feel sick!

Ah... so you are still giving him what he wants... so this is still maybe submissive.

 

[hisbloodformysins]

Yes ladies, but my point is a different point. I guess I can relate with the woman. Because the truth is, if we go into marriage thinking that we will only give while the other is meeting our needs, then what hope is there when the spouse doesn't meet our needs??? Being someone who has been miserable most of my marriage, because my hubby falls short of my expectations in a lot of ways- I've had to "learn" how to be happy, and that has been through agape love. If we love those who love us, how are we any different from the atheists?? But as we belong to christ, we are called to go against the world's ways and love even our enemies- to turn the other cheek, and unfortunately that means to suffer some injustices done to us even in our marriage. Shoot, if my hubby would divorce me due to my treatment of him, I would've been out the door on my backside less than 6 months into our marriage. No, I'm not saying that there aren't exceptions. But I'm saying that I have learned through my own marriage that if you both live by the 50:50 rule, meaning, "you meet me half way, and I'll meet you half way" then what happens if one spouse doesn't uphold their end of the bargain. The two of you will be destroyed by one another if you are waiting for the other to make the first move. I know this well. A house divided against itself cannot stand. We have to strive to have peace, and that means sometimes making a sacrifice of love.

 

[Crofter]

Because the truth is, if we go into marriage thinking that we will only give while the other is meeting our needs, then what hope is there when the spouse doesn't meet our needs???

I can not actually relate to why I would ever go into a relationship with that in mind. Seriously... to me a mariage is to give.. to love and to understand! lol! I can not think of any aspect of my partner I would want to change! The more I know him the more I love him... I can't think why I would wish to change any other person alive when I can see that I am so far from perfection myself! I can not make my neighbours garden any more beautiful.. but I can change my own garden.

.. but if my partner was doing something that did make me sad then I would be doing him an injustice not to tell him... if I don't tell him what makes me tick how would he know! Say eg. maybe he has been too quiet... then he can tell me why he is like this and so on.

 

[Jenna]

I can agree with some things in the article, but there are a good number of comments and opinions that I just can't agree with. Of course it is ideal for a spouse to be supportive, loving, and trusting of their mate. There are many things stated in the artical that every person should work toward embracing. It's simply a matter of having a loving respect for someone. However, I don't think that that means a wife should not have a differing opinion than her husband or let her feelings and opinions be known. Accountability is a huge thing no matter what kind of relationship we are in. Sometimes being that helper that God intended for us to be means that we have to question decisions and offer alternatives if a situation is headed down hill.

Something that I've learned very well is that being submissive does not equal being a mindless servant. Loving someone and caring for their wellbeing does not mean that a woman should just smile and nod every time that her husband says something. Likewise, I'm not advocating fighting or degrading someone either.

Lastly, just as an observation, I think that the author of the article is laying too much blame soley on her shoulders. Granted, she didn't do her best to be the loving and supportive spouse that she could have been, but we all make mistakes. Carrying that guilt around for years is nothing but destructive, and not something that God wants of us. If God will forgive us our sin, we should learn from that example and let it go also. As far as her husband, I can't feel too bad for him. It may not be pleasant to have a spouse that lacks an understanding of how to love her husband, but I don't believe that it warrants divorce. I find that I'm curious about how any man can leave his former wife and child(ren) in dire financial straits and not bother to even help figure out why her transportation didn't work. If we are all called to help the needy, it sure makes me feel a bit odd about a man who would turn his back on those who are in need because he didn't love God enough to be submissive to HIS will. *laughs* Boy oh boy, with all of the talk about submission of women, it seems that some forget that men are called to a submission just as we are. He became upset that his wife didn't treat him as she should, and then he did the same thing to the One who is HIS 'head'. Interesting.

All in all, the article has merit because it does bring to mind the ways in which we can show our love and appreciation for our mates.

 

[faith177]

Sometimes communication is just not that easy, you say what is wrong they say nothing. then you try to figure it out yourself but unfortunately because we are different we usually analyse it wrong, because we think differently. Everyone has growth to do in their life and maybe you are lucky to be in a marriage that is healthy maybe your growth is in a different place. I relate to the article too, because it fits with my circumstance it is what I am working on, sure I could have left because he has been unreasonable or because we spent the first year in constant strife and according to some that is grounds for divorse, but I am not perfect either, God reminds me of this when I am picking on my dh faults.

Marriage takes work, some more than others, for mine we both grew up in somewhat disfunction, so we have no real good experiences to lean on. So we are learning together and while I am certainly not a silent partner, I do speak up when I feel strongly about something what I have learned is that I dont have to speak out all the time.

 

[Blessed2003]

I read the article, and it made me cry.. I feel that way much of the time. (I dont' necessarily agree that it is right, but the "feelings" are still real) I was married for 8.5 yeas before leaving my husband, when we married we neither one went to church or had a relationship with God. I knew of God, but not really, i just believed. I started longing for God about a year or so after we married. I sought Him and my life changed. I got in church and quit living in sin, my husband did not. It was ok for a while. He was very emotionally unavailable to me. Our conversations were always one sided and he was there, but not. I cried many times begging God to soften his heart. We had a large family, 4 children total, all 2 yeas apart, so i stayed busy with them. I could not imagine breaking up their lives by leaving, so I just prayed. Nothing ever changed. I suspected infidelity, and felt NO love. I could never "prove" anything though. I lost my heart in doing good, so to speak. (I was not a "June Cleaver" by no means, I was very contentious, and as the woman in the story said, very critical, though I did not see it at the time) I gave up after I lost my dad. I left God, turned to other sources for my "joy" and not long after left my husband, breaking up my family. All the children went different places, it was a total mess. I suffer greatly because of these choices. (she described him coming over saying how sorry he was that her car was broken down, happend to me too, but my child was with me, my ex was with his new girl and they just drove off and left me, it hurt soo bad) I do blame myself, I was the Christian, I should have known better. I just got tired, and thought it would be better. It was not! He lost custody of all of his children because of drinking and abuse. (I drank too, just didn't abuse the children) and then he left town, no one knew where he was. That is when it hit me that it was over. All along, I had hoped he'd come to his "senses" and come back to me...LOL So, 3 weeks later I was re-married. (not very smart) My new husband and I get along fine, but still, I don't know if we are "married in the Lord" it is a big heartache.
My ex came back to town and begged for forgiveness, and wanted to see his child. I felt soo bad for him because it was not tottaly his fault as I had thought. He sees our son now, (I don't get child support, but i am doing ok, i have a man who helps) It was very healing to be able to forgive him, and him me. I still love him, and always will..
I am being unfair to my new husband by this too, but love does not turn off and on. It is really sad, if one can make a marriage work, by all means, they should. I believe it is God's will.
Sorry, I am glad I got that out. Thanks

 

[HeatherJay]

I don't agree with everything in that article, either. The author seems to imply that living in a trailer that she rents is the punishment for her refusal to submit in her marriage...that she was LUCKY to have a man who wasn't there for her emotionally, spiritually, or financially, she just didn't realize it. I find it sad and that article makes me pity her. A wife can submit to her husband and still not be a doormat.

Love, Heather

 

[Tangnefedd]

Ah... so you are still giving him what he wants... so this is still maybe submissive.

Only if that didn't accord with my wishes! I would never be submissive to anyone, that is one of the reasons he married me, I guess.

 

[faith177]

I hear her saying not that the way he treated her was ok or that he wasnt in the wrong at all, but she is accepting and acknowledging her part in it. That perhaps if she would have reacted differently, perhaps it would have changed the circumstances. I know that in my situation if I am combative or cranky that affects the way my dh acts and can spiral into a fight that prob did not have to happen. It is easy sometimes to focus on the other persons fault in the matter but it is rarely one sided.

 

[Cordy]

I don't agree with everything in that article, either. The author seems to imply that living in a trailer that she rents is the punishment for her refusal to submit in her marriage...that she was LUCKY to have a man who wasn't there for her emotionally, spiritually, or financially, she just didn't realize it. I find it sad and that article makes me pity her. A wife can submit to her husband and still not be a doormat.

I agree.

 

[Yitzchak]

There's been some heated debating on the forums on the topic of submission I was wondering what you all thought of the article this lady wrote.

http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/Articles/200203MarApr%20ALONE.htm[/QUOTE]

Her basic premise is sound. The older generation has failed to train in how to be a good wife by and large. I might add the same is true for men being husbands too. I would venture a guess that it is due in large part to the fatherless generation which our daughters grew up with being raised by single mothers. Not only are there bad examples in some cases but in many cases no example at all to follow on how a woman loves her husband and behaves as a wife.

On some of the details, one might dispute which are accurate biblical teaching and which are her personal isssues. Also worth pointing out is the fact that if her husband left her it was his sin and not her responsibility. But the basic premise of a generation of untrained wives is sound , in my view.

 

[Mrs. Enigma]

I really like that article. It is one of my favorites. Helps keep things in perspective. Do I wanna have the last word in an argument, or have a better marriage in the long run? Do I wanna have him do everything my way, or have him enjoy being with me?