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Is Evolution Going Anywhere?

Notedstrangeperson

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I apologise in advance about the shameless 'me me me' comment. :sorry:


A little while ago I asked what would convert theistic evolutionists to creationism. My own theory is aliens - aliens so human-like they must have been made in the same way, despite being on separate planets. Then I would start to consider accepting intelligent design.

However I didn't point out that my concept of intelligent design is quite different from the official ID standpoint: I would not believe that a creator had specifically engineered us (human or alien) in a certain way. Irreducible complexity and the anthropic principle would mean nothing to me. Instead, I would believe that life is heading in some universal direction, that it's heading towards some common goal.

What are your thoughts on this? Are we evolving towards something?

Most TEs I suspect will say no. Evolution is blind, we don't evolve on purpose or become 'better' than we used to be. Evolving towards some specific point seems to have a touch of creationism about it, until we consider this from atheist Douglas Rushkoff:

I believe that evolution has a purpose and a direction. To me it seems obvious, if absolutely unconfirmable, that matter is groping towards complexity.

Theology goes a long way towards imbuding substance and process with meaning - describing life as 'matter reaching towards divinity ... But theologians mistakenly ascribe this sense of purpose to history rather than the future.

-'What we Believe but Cannot Prove'
John Brockman (editor).​
 

gluadys

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What are your thoughts on this? Are we evolving towards something?

Most TEs I suspect will say no. Evolution is blind, we don't evolve on purpose or become 'better' than we used to be. Evolving towards some specific point seems to have a touch of creationism about it, until we consider this from atheist Douglas Rushkoff:

I believe that evolution has a purpose and a direction. To me it seems obvious, if absolutely unconfirmable, that matter is groping towards complexity.

Theology goes a long way towards imbuding substance and process with meaning - describing life as 'matter reaching towards divinity ... But theologians mistakenly ascribe this sense of purpose to history rather than the future.

-'What we Believe but Cannot Prove'
John Brockman (editor).​

I would certainly agree with the title Brockman chose for his book.

I think it is possible evolution is headed somewhere, but I don't think we can know this via scientific evidence---not even humanoid aliens. His last sentence "theologians mistakenly ascribe this sense of purpose to history rather than the future," sounds like process theology. The purpose of God "lures" the present toward the future. But that doesn't help us figure out where we will end up.

The evolutionary past doesn't determine (although it may constrain) the evolutionary future; the mechanics of evolution give us no hint of what may be in store; we cannot choose our own direction---so if there is direction, the only source it can come from is the will of God.
 
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mark kennedy

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Darwinian evolution is going somewhere alright, it's going in circles around a priori naturalistic assumptions.

I apologise in advance about the shameless 'me me me' comment. :sorry:

Not a problem, we all do it.

A little while ago I asked what would convert theistic evolutionists to creationism. My own theory is aliens - aliens so human-like they must have been made in the same way, despite being on separate planets. Then I would start to consider accepting intelligent design.

That creates a back up problem because the aliens would have to have either evolved or been specially created, there is no third choice. Between the two of them they exhaust the possibilities.

However I didn't point out that my concept of intelligent design is quite different from the official ID standpoint: I would not believe that a creator had specifically engineered us (human or alien) in a certain way. Irreducible complexity and the anthropic principle would mean nothing to me. Instead, I would believe that life is heading in some universal direction, that it's heading towards some common goal.

That's right and it's not a novel concept, it's called teleology.

What are your thoughts on this? Are we evolving towards something?

Yes the creation is evolving into all it's vast array but within certain boundaries. See my signature.

Most TEs I suspect will say no. Evolution is blind, we don't evolve on purpose or become 'better' than we used to be. Evolving towards some specific point seems to have a touch of creationism about it, until we consider this from atheist Douglas Rushkoff:

I believe that evolution has a purpose and a direction. To me it seems obvious, if absolutely unconfirmable, that matter is groping towards complexity.

Theology goes a long way towards imbuding substance and process with meaning - describing life as 'matter reaching towards divinity ... But theologians mistakenly ascribe this sense of purpose to history rather than the future.

-'What we Believe but Cannot Prove'
John Brockman (editor).​

Creationism colors all of Christian thought until some atheist imports some transcendent naturalistic assumption, the Bible has it's foundations in history with an anxious expectation of the soon appearing of Christ coming in power and glory. We neither reject historical facts nor do we neglect an expectation of the future. We just reserve the right to remain unconvinced by evolutionists.

Have a nice day :wave:
Mark
 
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SkyWriting

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I apologise in advance about the shameless 'me me me' comment. :sorry:


A little while ago I asked what would convert theistic evolutionists to creationism. My own theory is aliens - aliens so human-like they must have been made in the same way, despite being on separate planets. Then I would start to consider accepting intelligent design.

However I didn't point out that my concept of intelligent design is quite different from the official ID standpoint: I would not believe that a creator had specifically engineered us (human or alien) in a certain way. Irreducible complexity and the anthropic principle would mean nothing to me. Instead, I would believe that life is heading in some universal direction, that it's heading towards some common goal.

What are your thoughts on this? Are we evolving towards something?

Most TEs I suspect will say no. Evolution is blind, we don't evolve on purpose or become 'better' than we used to be. Evolving towards some specific point seems to have a touch of creationism about it, until we consider this from atheist Douglas Rushkoff:
I believe that evolution has a purpose and a direction. To me it seems obvious, if absolutely unconfirmable, that matter is groping towards complexity.

Theology goes a long way towards imbuding substance and process with meaning - describing life as 'matter reaching towards divinity ... But theologians mistakenly ascribe this sense of purpose to history rather than the future.

-'What we Believe but Cannot Prove'
John Brockman (editor).​

It's a mute question:
Human Evolution Has Stopped, Says Scientist | NowPublic News Coverage

But there are no aliens. Just believers who refuse to give up the religion. But that's Faith for ya.
 
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Exodite

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To answer the thread: Not without some major new evidence. I wouldn't bet on it not matter what odds I was given. It's pretty amazing that evolution has withstood given just how easily it could be falsified; a single fossil in the wrong strata would do it. As time has continued the fossil record continues to grow and previous gaps filled in. As time has continued evolution has increased in explanatory power showing no sign of faltering.
 
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shernren

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Are we evolving towards something?

There was an interesting general principle in The Collapse of Chaos by Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart. It says that, broadly, complexity must increase in evolution, firstly because it's often easier to add stages to a process than to take stages away, and secondly because it's often better to add components to a functioning system than to take components away. Simplification only comes when certain components have become heavily redundant.

Hence, things evolve in the direction of an equilibrium where specialized life-forms dominate the ecosystem, until life-forms are over-specialized at which point any disruption (and they must come) will favor more generalized organisms, which are then free to re-specialize and take over more of the ecosystem. The obvious counter-example, though, is the evolution of the nervous system: a creature which specializes in nervous complexity is, in fact, specializing in adaptability itself, which is why humans do so well.

Most TEs I suspect will say no. Evolution is blind, we don't evolve on purpose or become 'better' than we used to be. Evolving towards some specific point seems to have a touch of creationism about it, until we consider this from atheist Douglas Rushkoff:
I believe that evolution has a purpose and a direction. To me it seems obvious, if absolutely unconfirmable, that matter is groping towards complexity.

Theology goes a long way towards imbuding substance and process with meaning - describing life as 'matter reaching towards divinity ... But theologians mistakenly ascribe this sense of purpose to history rather than the future.

-'What we Believe but Cannot Prove'
John Brockman (editor).​

We must distinguish between intrinsic and extrinsic purpose. I believe that evolution has no intrinsic purpose - that is, if we view evolution in and of itself, then there is no purpose to be discerned, merely some general trends. But that is true of all natural processes. Does gravity have a purpose? What about electromagnetism? Or friction? What is the point of the Coriolis force, or of the product rule in differentiation?

All these natural processes have no purpose when examined in and of themselves. But one might as well ask: if I were a piano, would I understand the purpose of music? Suppose I am a self-aware piano: I can feel certain keys being pressed at certain time intervals, and thus know that certain strings vibrate for certain amounts of time. I may even be able to discern some general principles about which notes tend to follow which. But if I cannot hear the sounds that are being produced, can I truly understand music? And if I cannot feel the emotional responses that those sounds evoke, can I truly understand why humans like to play music so much? Music, as a series of sounds, has no purpose in and of itself; it is only when music is composed in a society which has sufficient technology so that musical instruments can be produced and sufficient specialization so that some can be musicians and others can spare the time to listen - only under a complex and fairly restrictive set of external constraints can the purpose of music be understood.

As natural beings, understanding nature in a natural way, we cannot discern the purpose of nature or any part of nature, any more than a piano can understand the purpose of music or (to be facetious) a cow can understand the purpose of cheeseburgers. Nature has no intrinsic purpose that we can understand; rather, the purpose in nature is extrinsic, something that we cannot understand when we look at nature in and of itself, but we can only grasp when we see nature as the gift of a good Father God to His only begotten Son through the divine love and creative activity of the Holy Spirit, a gift in which we by God's divine pleasure serve to reflect in our own small way the wonder of the divine Trinitarian nature of love.
 
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SkyWriting

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To answer the thread: Not without some major new evidence. I wouldn't bet on it not matter what odds I was given. It's pretty amazing that evolution has withstood given just how easily it could be falsified; a single fossil in the wrong strata would do it. As time has continued the fossil record continues to grow and previous gaps filled in. As time has continued evolution has increased in explanatory power showing no sign of faltering.

Actually there are terms for strata in the wrong place, in the wrong order, and fossils found in the wrong strata. And it makes up a fairly large percentage of the total record.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Shernren said:
There was an interesting general principle in The Collapse of Chaos by Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart. It says that, broadly, complexity must increase in evolution, firstly because it's often easier to add stages to a process than to take stages away, and secondly because it's often better to add components to a functioning system than to take components away. Simplification only comes when certain components have become heavily redundant.

Really? In the few books I've read I've heard quite the opposite - that it is easier to remove components than to add them. Indeed having too many 'components' or being too 'complex' can actually be damaging.

Does being more complex mean being more evolved? I would say no.

Shernren said:
We must distinguish between intrinsic and extrinsic purpose. I believe that evolution has no intrinsic purpose - that is, if we view evolution in and of itself, then there is no purpose to be discerned, merely some general trends.
...
Nature has no intrinsic purpose that we can understand; rather, the purpose in nature is extrinsic, something that we cannot understand when we look at nature in and of itself, but we can only grasp when we see nature as the gift of a good Father God to His only begotten Son through the divine love and creative activity of the Holy Spirit, a gift in which we by God's divine pleasure serve to reflect in our own small way the wonder of the divine Trinitarian nature of love.

I like your answer, even though my own opinion is quite different. I believe (but cannot prove :p) that there is some intrinsic purpose to nature - although what it is I cannot put my finger on.

This idea came from another quote from 'What we Believe but Cannot Prove', this time by Robert R. Provine:


The null position [that consciousness does not play a significant role in human behaviour] is an antidote to philospher's disease - the inappropriate attribution of rational, conscious control over processes that may be irrational and unconscious.


In other words, how can we get meaning and direction from a process which is inherently meaningless and blind?
 
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shernren

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Really? In the few books I've read I've heard quite the opposite - that it is easier to remove components than to add them. Indeed having too many 'components' or being too 'complex' can actually be damaging.

Does being more complex mean being more evolved? I would say no.

Once certain components become superfluous, then producing them requires an unnecessary expenditure of energy, nutrients and processing time. Removing them then becomes evolutionarily adaptive. Even in those situations, what often happens is that the superfluous components become adapted to serve some other purpose.

That, crudely speaking, is what most likely happened in the evolution of a lot of cascade processes. A good example is the vertebrate clotting cascade. One of the original clotting proteins got gene-duplicated, resulting in two copies of the same gene, one of which was thus redundant. Instead of the redundant copy being destroyed, it gets mutated so that a clotting cascade is created. (I'm explaining this very badly - it's one of the principal examples in Finding Darwin's God, which has a much better explanation.)

The point is that it's logistically easier to add and modify components than to cut them out. To me, complex structures like the eye are not really all that striking examples of evolution. What really grabs my attention are cases of strong simplification. The prime example is the reproductive cycle of the anglerfish - the male loses all autonomy and basically becomes a pair of gonads attached to the female. How on earth did that happen? How and when did evolution decide (I use an anthropomorphic metaphor) that the entire adult life of the male was just so much scaffolding that could be done away with to create a more efficient life-cycle?

I like your answer, even though my own opinion is quite different. I believe (but cannot prove :p) that there is some intrinsic purpose to nature - although what it is I cannot put my finger on.

This idea came from another quote from 'What we Believe but Cannot Prove', this time by Robert R. Provine:

The null position [that consciousness does not play a significant role in human behaviour] is an antidote to philospher's disease - the inappropriate attribution of rational, conscious control over processes that may be irrational and unconscious.

In other words, how can we get meaning and direction from a process which is inherently meaningless and blind?

A ball rolls along a grooved track: where does it stop? The process is inherently meaningless and blind. But number the grooves and install a casino around the roulette wheel, and suddenly the inherently meaningless and blind process has a whole lot of meaning to the crowd of gamblers and casino operators.

I think systems inherit meaning by interacting with a wider system that imbues meaning. For example, from the perspective of a flower, its color is simply the spatial distribution of certain pigments; but when a bee sees that flower, it sees "meaning" - enough at least to know where to find pollen - and when a woman sees that flower she sees even more "meaning". This last meaning would be incomprehensible to, say, a dolphin (an intelligent animal in itself!): the meaning is not intrinsic to the flower, or even the image of the flower, but rather resides in the interaction between the flower and human society.

How, then, does evolution create systems that imbue meaning? It does so because the specialization of the nervous system is adaptive. Meaning is semantic shorthand. It is a way of attaching lots of information to what may be a physically simple object. For example, a rose, though it is just the reproductive organ of a particular thorny plant, carries with it so many of the love stories and ideas of Western civilization. And this applies in a simplified way as well to animals: when a bee sees a rose, it does not just see a particular visual pattern, it sees a place to find nectar for the hive. In its own crude way, it has added information (contained in its genes) to the physical symbol that is a rose, and has acted appropriately.

So, if evolution indeed tends towards nervous complexity, then evolution tends towards the complexity of systems that imbue meaning. Ironically, there is no meaning in that process itself! Does sentience itself have a meaning? Does it mean anything that I have a particular evolutionary theory of meaning, that evolution has given rise to a life-form which can contemplate what meaning might possibly be attached to evolution itself? The theist answer, of course, is that at this point God Himself steps in and imbues meaning to our lives on Earth, and by extension to the creation which we have in our own halting ways seen meaning in.

But then we have a problem. Where does God Himself derive His own meaning? What gives God His own purpose? Either God derives His meaning from some higher system - in which case He's not much of a god - or God derives His meaning from Himself - in which case we humans might be capable of replicating that nifty trick, as in fact we often do on a personal scale. We have stumbled upon a philosophical version of Euthyphro's dilemma, and the answers that work there will largely work here.
 
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Optimax

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Evolution?

Forget what the "odds" are that a man could have Just evolved, given the complex structure and design of the body.

Like I said, I forgot what the official odds are on that happening, however I know they are waaaay uuuup there.


Something I have wondered about though for a long time.

Never hear the odds on this happening.

Although it did.

What are the odds on the female evolving right along with the male?

Is there a number that high?
 
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metherion

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Well, it's NOT odds. It's a combinations of thermodynamics, biochemistry, environmental pressures, and a handful of other things that are not based on chance at all. And since it requires males and females to reproduce, the entire population would be evolving together, not the men following one pattern and the women following another. Men and women ARE the same species... hard as it may be for us to understand each other sometimes.

Metherion
 
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Optimax

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Well, it's NOT odds. It's a combinations of thermodynamics, biochemistry, environmental pressures, and a handful of other things that are not based on chance at all. And since it requires males and females to reproduce, the entire population would be evolving together, not the men following one pattern and the women following another. Men and women ARE the same species... hard as it may be for us to understand each other sometimes.

Metherion

Thermodynamic. biochemistry, environmental pressures, all are great and wonderful subjects but all deal with the physical realm.

Life, that super wonderful thing that makes us conscious and functional is much more than physical components. The DNA and all other physical components are of the physical body and are not a part of the Life that makes the physical move, think, talk and be.

The idea that anything can come up with
 
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gluadys

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Thermodynamic. biochemistry, environmental pressures, all are great and wonderful subjects but all deal with the physical realm.

Life, that super wonderful thing that makes us conscious and functional is much more than physical components. The DNA and all other physical components are of the physical body and are not a part of the Life that makes the physical move, think, talk and be.

I have no quarrel with that, but biology only studies the physical aspects of life. So what's the problem with the evolution of the physical aspects of life: DNA changing, traits changing, species changing over time.

What's wrong with science leaving the study of Life beyond the physical to philosophy and theology to study?
 
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Greg1234

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I have no quarrel with that, but biology only studies the physical aspects of life. So what's the problem with the evolution of the physical aspects of life: DNA changing, traits changing, species changing over time.

What's wrong with science leaving the study of Life beyond the physical to philosophy and theology to study?
Biology and the study of adaptation strengthens exactly what physical life as a reflection is supposed to be. Just because theology implements the rest of reality doesnt mean that its resonance should be mutilated by materialistic speculation.
 
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Optimax

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I have no quarrel with that, but biology only studies the physical aspects of life. So what's the problem with the evolution of the physical aspects of life: DNA changing, traits changing, species changing over time.

What's wrong with science leaving the study of Life beyond the physical to philosophy and theology to study?


Because the physical part of it is not the controlling feature.

Life itself whatever that wonderful spark is, that is the controlling feature.

If evolution happened there still has to be a designer behind it. A lower life form just does not have the intelligence, resources, nor is capable in any way to plan, design, and change its own course, neither can chance.

The complexity of us, the system of the body with all its parts, designed so that each part does a particular function that is needed to sustain the body.

That is just too complex to have been possible to evolve. It took a Creator to design us as well as the system of the universe, and an earth system designed compatible with our physical body so we could exist in it.

We were created in t he image and likeness of God for a specific purpose.

That purpose was to have to opportunity to be a child of God, grow up learning about Him and spend eternity enjoying the fellowship with Him of a Father to Grown Son/Daughter as we mature in understanding.

That is the main purpose that we are taking up space on the planet right now for. To make that decision. To decide what we will believe.

Is their a God? The correct answer is yes.

Do I choose to follow Him? The correct answer is yes.

Will I choose to follow Him the way He prescribes. The correct answer is yes.

His way is Jesus.

When one understands the issues, then one understands more about why God says that it must be through Jesus that we come to Him.


Notice that evolution is not even an issue here, but a distraction from the real issue.

What are you going to do with Jesus?
 
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gluadys

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Biology and the study of adaptation strengthens exactly what physical life as a reflection is supposed to be. Just because theology implements the rest of reality doesnt mean that its resonance should be mutilated by materialistic speculation.

I don't think the study of evolution requires any materialistic speculation.
 
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gluadys

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Because the physical part of it is not the controlling feature.

Life itself whatever that wonderful spark is, that is the controlling feature.

I don't think that answers the question.

If evolution happened there still has to be a designer behind it. A lower life form just does not have the intelligence, resources, nor is capable in any way to plan, design, and change its own course, neither can chance.

Science doesn't claim that any creature, even a higher life form, plans its own evolutionary path. Nor does it say evolution happens by chance.

That is just too complex to have been possible to evolve.

That might be an argument against atheistic evolution, but lets remember we are on a Christian forum here. I don't find complexity a compelling reason for saying anything cannot evolve. There are plenty of opportunities for complex features to evolve.


We were created in t he image and likeness of God for a specific purpose.

That purpose was to have to opportunity to be a child of God, grow up learning about Him and spend eternity enjoying the fellowship with Him of a Father to Grown Son/Daughter as we mature in understanding.

That is the main purpose that we are taking up space on the planet right now for. To make that decision. To decide what we will believe.

Is their a God? The correct answer is yes.

Do I choose to follow Him? The correct answer is yes.

Will I choose to follow Him the way He prescribes. The correct answer is yes.

His way is Jesus.

When one understands the issues, then one understands more about why God says that it must be through Jesus that we come to Him.


Notice that evolution is not even an issue here, but a distraction from the real issue.

What are you going to do with Jesus?

I agree. When it comes to our relationship with our Creator and Saviour, evolution is not even an issue----or should not be. It is a distraction from the real issue.

Nothing you have said makes evolution a non-starter for Christians.
 
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