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Is evolution a fact or theory?

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As your fellow YE creationist Kurt Wise, admits, they are "strong evidence" for evolution.

I reexamined Wise's papers in my Research Libary, and found another paper that you may be referencing. Some quotes:

"There is fossil evidence interpreted as transitional forms which can be understood to strongly support macroevolutionary theory. Creationist palaeontology is an immature field, the resources of creationists are severely limited, and the 'transitional form' issue has a low priority in the creation model. It is thus premature to engage in a rigorous evaluation of transitional form claims. It is suggested that creationists not divert resources or concern in the direction of 'transitional form' arguments. As a creationist response to evolutionary claims of transitional forms is developed, a new vocabulary should be adopted."

"Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by [Darwinian] macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT be said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds."

"Substantial supporting evidence of macroevolutionary theory can be found in the fossil record of stratomorphic intermediates. Additionally, the creation model is not well enough developed at present to properly evaluate this evidence or to develop an adequate alternative scenario or explanation. However, in the light of the creation model's incomplete development, its non-inconsiderable success at explaining that record is exciting and promising indeed. There is little doubt in this author's mind that with the maturity of the creation model will come an explanation of stratomorphic intermediates superior to that of macroevolutionary theory."

[Kurt P. Wise, "Towards a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms." CEN Technical Journal, 1995]

https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j09_2/j09_2_216-222.pdf
Therefore, it is just as I expected. Those statement by Wise were from an old article, before he got heavily into real science -- before he realized how flimsy and non-existent the so-called "evidence" of transitional fossils would turn out to be. He sings an entirely different tune, these days.


Dan
 
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The Barbarian

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Since evolutionists rely so much on faith, and so little on context, I thought you might be interested in what context actually looks like.

Let's take some context, then...

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.
Stephen Gould, Evolution as Fact and Theory, p. 260

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation - of stratomorphic intermediate species - include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation - of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates - has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacdontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation - of stratomorphic series - has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
YE creationist Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms pp219-221


You seem unaware of what science says about this, and surprisingly, you don't even seem to know what creationists say about it.

 
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The Barbarian

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Therefore, it is just as I expected. Those statement by Wise were from an old article, before he got heavily into real science -- before he realized how flimsy and non-existent the so-called "evidence" of transitional fossils would turn out to be. He sings an entirely different tune, these days.

You've been had on that one, too. Wise had a doctorate in paleontology when he wrote his article. But feel free to quote him as recanting on his statement that these transitionals are "strong evidence" for evolution.

C'mon.
 
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Barbarian chuckles:
Nope. You just learned what "inference" means. This is from Gould's own words (from above):

"The second and third arguments for evolution—the case for major changes—do not involve direct observation of evolution in action. They rest upon inference, but are no less secure for that reason.

Obviously Gould was using the word "inference" to explain why it's foolish to assert that we can only know what we have directly observed.

Everything not directly observed requires faith to believe. Macroevolution is a special case that requires a high-degree of faith, since it makes little scientific sense, and can never be proved. To those of us who believe the Word of God, it makes no sense.

Nope. I'm just disassembling your claim that Gould considered inference to be "faith." As you see, he did not. Inference is a way you can learn about the truth, even if you can't have logical certainty. And yet, you can't distinguish inference (which is the way science works) from faith.

Weasel words. You argue just to be arguing.

Evolution, as you know, is a directly observed phenomenon. Evolutionary theory is the science that describes it.

Macroevolution has never been observed, nor is it science, but a religion.

YE creationism is a historical philosophy, practiced with the fervor of a faith-based religion.

The geological column and the fossil record support a global flood. The boundaries assigned to the genome of the various kinds, to keep each distinct from the others, also supports creationism and intelligent design.

Inferences are steps in reasoning, moving from premises to logical consequences. Charles Sanders Peirce divided inference into three kinds: deduction, induction, and abduction. Deduction is inference deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true, with the laws of valid inference being studied in logic. Induction is inference from particular premises to a universal conclusion. Abduction is inference to the best explanation.

Statistical inference uses mathematics to draw conclusions in the presence of uncertainty. This generalizes deterministic reasoning, with the absence of uncertainty as a special case. Statistical inference uses quantitative or qualitative (categorical) data which may be subject to random variations.
Inference - Wikipedia

Blah, blah, blah.

For example, we know that the whale Ambulocetus was a freshwater animal, because of the analysis of oxygen ratios in the fossil. The data was obtained by examining the material, after which a confidence level was obtained by statistical inference.

You know no such thing. You are guessing.

As I said,even many creationists now admit the fact of speciation. The ICR endorses a paper that says new species, genera,and families evolve. You would do better at defending your religious doctrines, if you knew more about them.

More bait-and-switch. Speciation is not macroevolution.

John Woodmorappe, Noah's Ark; a Feasibility Study ICR Impact

Woodmorappe assumes no more than 16,000 "kinds" on the Ark, from which all modern animals evolved. In an email discussion, Woodmorappe confirmed to me, that he believes the limit of evolution is at the family level. That would mean, for example, that all canids evolved from a single "kind", and would put humans and apes in the same "kind."

It seemed you knew what you were talking about, until your last clause. That is when your fairy-tale mindset showed its ugly head.

By the way, have you read this by Woodmorappe?

"Such thinking exists today. David Duke, a former KKK member, raised Methodist, abandoned the monogenism of the Genesis account and embraced evolution. He was bowing to science and began using many of the same rationalizations as theistic evolutionists. This was because the differences between races were, to him, much too prominent to be ignored or downplayed. Ironically, David Duke bought into the now-discredited notion of 98% similarity, between chimps and humans, to argue that seemingly trivial differences in the human DNA of different races can result in profound and immutable differences between the human races" [John Woodmorappe, "Darwinism has remade Western society—for the worse: Review of The Darwin Effect." Revolution Against Evolution, 2018]


Cool, huh?

But YE creationists, in revising His word to fit their new faith, are not right.

You have yet to demonstrate that I have revised God's Word. You know you cannot. And from what I have read thus far, it is doubtful you know enough about the Bible to make even a reasonable argument in defense of the bizarre way you have to twist God's Word to make it fit your secular, anti-God worldview. But don't be too alarmed. Ignorance is an excuse:

"And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled." -- Acts 3:17-18 KJV

But refusal to repent has no refuge.

Dan
 
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Let's take some context, then...

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.
Stephen Gould, Evolution as Fact and Theory, p. 260

If Gould didn't want to be quoted, he should have kept his mouth shut.

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation - of stratomorphic intermediate species - include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation - of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates - has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacdontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation - of stratomorphic series - has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
YE creationist Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms pp219-221

You left out this part:

"Substantial supporting evidence of macroevolutionary theory can be found in the fossil record of stratomorphic intermediates. Additionally, the creation model is not well enough developed at present to properly evaluate this evidence or to develop an adequate alternative scenario or explanation. However, in the light of the creation model's incomplete development, its non-inconsiderable success at explaining that record is exciting and promising indeed. There is little doubt in this author's mind that with the maturity of the creation model will come an explanation of stratomorphic intermediates superior to that of macroevolutionary theory."

[Kurt P. Wise, "Towards a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms." CEN Technical Journal, 1995]

I am certain it was an honest omission. You also failed to reveal that those "rock solid" transitional fossils (that Wise believed to be true at the time he wrote the 1995 paper) have turned out to be highly imaginative duds.

You seem unaware of what science says about this, and surprisingly, you don't even seem to know what creationists say about it.

I know what creationists say. I simply cannot predict how those same words will sound when edited ("quote-mined") by an evolutionist.

Dan
 
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You've been had on that one, too. Wise had a doctorate in paleontology when he wrote his article. But feel free to quote him as recanting on his statement that these transitionals are "strong evidence" for evolution.
C'mon.

You have been had. Over and over again Wise states that the field of creation paleontology was young (very young), and he expected things to turn around in favor of creationism. I am surprised you missed all those statements. Here are a few from that article that you missed:

"Even at this early stage of development and with such significant challenges as the early whale series, the creation model appears to have potential for developing a creationist explanation of stratomorphic intermediates which is superior to that of evolutionary theory."

"Given the developmental nature of the fields upon which palaeontology must be based, creationist palaeontology as a field does not currently exist in anything like a coherent state. As a result, there is no sense in which creationist palaeontology at this point is capable of addressing the traditional transitional forms issue issue in any rigorous sense."

"Conventional theory has no explanation for the secular decrease in ocean temperature over this period, nor for the increase in grassland over this period (except for the ad hoc suggestion that the grasses must have evolved). Then conventional theory must suggest that high selection pressures caused parallel and convergent evolution to occur within a number of groups. Given the absence of a mechanism for the cooling and drying of the earth and the difficulty in independent creation of new genetic material in a number of groups, conventional theory is much less successful at explaining some of their favourite fossil evidence (namely the horse series) than is the creation model."

[Kurt P. Wise, "Towards a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms." CEN Technical Journal, 1995]


And so forth . . .

Dan
 
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The Barbarian

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You have been had. Over and over again Wise states that the field of creation paleontology was young (very young), and he expected things to turn around in favor of creationism.

Yes. He admits the evidence for evolution is strong, but he has faith that someday, creationists may be able to explain away the evidence. Like you, he prefers faith to facts. Unlike you, he is willing to admit that no amount of evidence would cause him to turn from his personal interpretation of scripture.

Notice that he admits that he can't explain the facts in terms of his belief system, but expresses faith that someday, he might:

"Even at this early stage of development and with such significant challenges as the early whale series, the creation model appears to have potential for developing a creationist explanation of stratomorphic intermediates which is superior to that of evolutionary theory."

"Given the developmental nature of the fields upon which palaeontology must be based, creationist palaeontology as a field does not currently exist in anything like a coherent state. As a result, there is no sense in which creationist palaeontology at this point is capable of addressing the traditional transitional forms issue issue in any rigorous sense."

"Conventional theory has no explanation for the secular decrease in ocean temperature over this period, nor for the increase in grassland over this period (except for the ad hoc suggestion that the grasses must have evolved). Then conventional theory must suggest that high selection pressures caused parallel and convergent evolution to occur within a number of groups. Given the absence of a mechanism for the cooling and drying of the earth and the difficulty in independent creation of new genetic material in a number of groups, conventional theory is much less successful at explaining some of their favourite fossil evidence (namely the horse series) than is the creation model."

[Kurt P. Wise, "Towards a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms." CEN Technical Journal, 1995]

He's an honest creationist. Unfortunately, there aren't that many among the leaders of the movement.

Edit:
BTW the spread of grasslands is not surprising. The world became cooler and drier during that period, and in such conditions forests shrink and grasslands increase, precisely because grasslands require less water than forests. It's true that flowering plants appeared about that time, which includes grasses. So no one really wonders why they spread as they did.
 
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The Barbarian

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Let's take some context, then...

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.
Stephen Gould, Evolution as Fact and Theory, p. 260

If Gould didn't want to be quoted, he should have kept his mouth shut.

He was aware that through "design or stupidity" creationists would misrepresent what he said. That's what they do.

(Kurt Wise admits that the facts can be reconciled with creationism, but expresses faith that they might someday be so)
"Substantial supporting evidence of macroevolutionary theory can be found in the fossil record of stratomorphic intermediates. Additionally, the creation model is not well enough developed at present to properly evaluate this evidence or to develop an adequate alternative scenario or explanation. However, in the light of the creation model's incomplete development, its non-inconsiderable success at explaining that record is exciting and promising indeed. There is little doubt in this author's mind that with the maturity of the creation model will come an explanation of stratomorphic intermediates superior to that of macroevolutionary theory."

[Kurt P. Wise, "Towards a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms." CEN Technical Journal, 1995]

Wise is an honest creationist; he admits that transitionals present a serious problem for creationism, but has faith that someday, there might be a reasonable explanation. He's too honest to deny the facts as they are.

 
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The Barbarian

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Everything not directly observed requires faith to believe.

Nope. For example, a fire investigator, looking at a possible arson case, can determine where the fire started, if an accelerant (such as gasoline) was used, and so on. No faith required. Just evidence.

Macroevolution is a special case that requires a high-degree of faith,

As you just learned, it's directly observed. Even many creationists now admit the fact of speciation. Would you like me to show you?

Barbarian observes:
I'm just disassembling your claim that Gould considered inference to be "faith." As you see, he did not. Inference is a way you can learn about the truth, even if you can't have logical certainty. And yet, you can't distinguish inference (which is the way science works) from faith.

Weasel words.

There's no point in denying the fact that inference is not faith. You argue just to be arguing.

The geological column and the fossil record support a global flood.

Nope. Even many creationists now admit that what were assumed to be "flood deposits" are nothing of the kind. In the Grand Canyon, for example, we have desert sand deposits, complete with plants and animal burrows in the middle of "flood deposits." There's no way to reconcile that with your story.

The boundaries assigned to the genome of the various kinds, to keep each distinct from the others, also supports creationism and intelligent design.

Sounds like a testable claim. Show us one of those boundaries and explain why you think there can be no further variation in that organism.

Inferences are steps in reasoning, moving from premises to logical consequences. Charles Sanders Peirce divided inference into three kinds: deduction, induction, and abduction. Deduction is inference deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true, with the laws of valid inference being studied in logic. Induction is inference from particular premises to a universal conclusion. Abduction is inference to the best explanation.

Statistical inference uses mathematics to draw conclusions in the presence of uncertainty. This generalizes deterministic reasoning, with the absence of uncertainty as a special case. Statistical inference uses quantitative or qualitative (categorical) data which may be subject to random variations.
Inference - Wikipedia

Blah, blah, blah.

I don't think you're doing yourself any good with that kind of thing.

Barbarian observes:

For example, we know that the whale Ambulocetus was a freshwater animal, because of the analysis of oxygen ratios in the fossil. The data was obtained by examining the material, after which a confidence level was obtained by statistical inference.

You know no such thing. You are guessing.

You were fooled again...

Ambulocetus's fossils were recovered from sediments that probably comprised an ancient estuary — and from the isotopes of oxygen in its bones. Animals are what they eat and drink, and saltwater and freshwater have different ratios of oxygen isotopes. This means that we can learn about what sort of water an animal drank by studying the isotopes that were incorporated into its bones and teeth as it grew. The isotopes show that Ambulocetus likely drank both saltwater and freshwater, which fits perfectly with the idea that these animals lived in estuaries or bays between freshwater and the open ocean.
The evolution of whales


Barrick, R.E., A.G. Fischer, Y. Kolodny, B. Luz, and D. Bohaska. 1992. Cetacean bone oxygen isotopes as proxies for Miocene ocean compostion and glaciation. Palaios 7(5):521-531.

More bait-and-switch. Speciation is not macroevolution.

They lied to you about that, too:
Macroevolution generally refers to evolution above the species level. So instead of focusing on an individual beetle species, a macroevolutionary lens might require that we zoom out on the tree of life, to assess the diversity of the entire beetle clade and its position on the tree.

What is macroevolution?

Microevolution is evolution within a species. Macroevolution is the evolution of new taxa. As you see, the ICR's acceptance of new species, genera, and families is an admission of macroevolution. To keep their followers ignorant, they redefined the term to mean "evolution so far that no one could ever live to see it happen."


By the way, have you read this by Woodmorappe?

(claim that David Duke accepts evolution)

I bet he accepts electricity and chemistry, too, the scoundrel.

By the way, have you read this by Henry Morris, ICR director and one of the founders of YE creationism?
His version of YE creationism requires him to believe that blacks are intellectually and spiritually inferior to other people.

Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow they have only gone so far and no farther. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories, and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they have eventually been displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites.
Henry Morris, The Beginning Of the World, Second Edition (1991), pp. 147-148:

Cool, huh?

You have yet to demonstrate that I have revised God's Word.

YE creationists added all sorts of things to scripture, like a young earth, a worldwide flood, life ex nihilo, and so on.

From what I have read thus far, it is doubtful you know enough about the Bible to make even a reasonable argument in defense of the bizarre way you have to twist God's Word to make it fit your YE anti-God worldview.
 
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Yes. He admits the evidence for evolution is strong, but he has faith that someday, creationists may be able to explain away the evidence.

He didn't have to. The "evidence" of macroevolution, in all cases, proved to be over-hyped silliness derived from highly imaginative fiction writers.

Like you, he prefers faith to facts. Unlike you, he is willing to admit that no amount of evidence would cause him to turn from his personal interpretation of scripture.

So, he believes in the Word of God over the imaginations of mere men. Shouldn't everyone?

As it turned out, evolutionism, with all its charlatanry, made it easy for him to maintain his faith.

Notice that he admits that he can't explain the facts in terms of his belief system, but expresses faith that someday, he might:

"Even at this early stage of development and with such significant challenges as the early whale series, the creation model appears to have potential for developing a creationist explanation of stratomorphic intermediates which is superior to that of evolutionary theory."

"Given the developmental nature of the fields upon which palaeontology must be based, creationist palaeontology as a field does not currently exist in anything like a coherent state. As a result, there is no sense in which creationist palaeontology at this point is capable of addressing the traditional transitional forms issue issue in any rigorous sense."

"Conventional theory has no explanation for the secular decrease in ocean temperature over this period, nor for the increase in grassland over this period (except for the ad hoc suggestion that the grasses must have evolved). Then conventional theory must suggest that high selection pressures caused parallel and convergent evolution to occur within a number of groups. Given the absence of a mechanism for the cooling and drying of the earth and the difficulty in independent creation of new genetic material in a number of groups, conventional theory is much less successful at explaining some of their favourite fossil evidence (namely the horse series) than is the creation model."

[Kurt P. Wise, "Towards a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms." CEN Technical Journal, 1995]

He's an honest creationist. Unfortunately, there aren't that many among the leaders of the movement.

When he wrote that, in 1995, I was still an evolutionist, and would have taken many of his claims about the future of creation science to be begging. But now we know that evolutionism was based on the flimsiest of evidence (actually, "none"). Dr. Kurt Wise was ahead of his time.

Edit:
BTW the spread of grasslands is not surprising. The world became cooler and drier during that period, and in such conditions forests shrink and grasslands increase, precisely because grasslands require less water than forests. It's true that flowering plants appeared about that time, which includes grasses. So no one really wonders why they spread as they did.

BTW, when are you going to show me where and how I misinterpreted the Word of God? You made the claim, now back it up.

Dan
 
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Let's take some context, then...

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.
Stephen Gould, Evolution as Fact and Theory, p. 260

He was aware that through "design or stupidity" creationists would misrepresent what he said. That's what they do.

I am unaware of anyone misrepresenting what Gould wrote. I am amused at how Gould took the non-evidence of Darwin's gradualism, and magically transformed it into "evidence" by redefining it. Slick! Of course, when your entire theory is based on magic, then resorting to even more magic to prop it up -- to maintain the deception, is an expected outcome.

Did I mention that Stephen Jay Gould was consistently inconsistent?

(Kurt Wise admits that the facts can be reconciled with creationism, but expresses faith that they might someday be so)

"Substantial supporting evidence of macroevolutionary theory can be found in the fossil record of stratomorphic intermediates. Additionally, the creation model is not well enough developed at present to properly evaluate this evidence or to develop an adequate alternative scenario or explanation. However, in the light of the creation model's incomplete development, its non-inconsiderable success at explaining that record is exciting and promising indeed. There is little doubt in this author's mind that with the maturity of the creation model will come an explanation of stratomorphic intermediates superior to that of macroevolutionary theory."

[Kurt P. Wise, "Towards a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms." CEN Technical Journal, 1995]

Wise is an honest creationist; he admits that transitionals present a serious problem for creationism, but has faith that someday, there might be a reasonable explanation. He's too honest to deny the facts as they are.

More misrepresentations. Kurt Wise, like any faithful Christian, believes the Word of God over the designs and schemes of mere men, no matter how high-falutin their titles and pretenses. And, of course, since making those statements 23 years ago, his predictions have turned out to be correct.

Look at the REAL facts. Evolutionism is so unreasonable -- so at odds with common sense, and its "gatekeepers" so tyrannical and corrupt, that it can only be maintained by the power of the sword -- of the state, much like the heretical teachings of the "Christian" orthodoxy during the Middle Ages and early Renaissance required the Inquisition to maintain control over the minds of the people. Even the early Protestant leaders fell into that hellish trap: that they had the absolute right to tell everyone else what to think.

The moral of the story is, trust in the Word of God over the imaginations of mere men.

BTW, when are you going to show me where and how I misinterpreted the Word of God? You made the claim, now back it up.

Dan
 
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The Barbarian

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Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.
Stephen Gould, Evolution as Fact and Theory, p. 260

I am unaware of anyone misrepresenting what Gould wrote.

You, for example, did. However, you seem to have been unaware that Gould, like your fellow creationist Kurt Wise, pointed out numerous examples of transitional forms.

(Kurt Wise admits that the facts can be reconciled with creationism, but expresses faith that they might someday be so)

"Substantial supporting evidence of macroevolutionary theory can be found in the fossil record of stratomorphic intermediates. Additionally, the creation model is not well enough developed at present to properly evaluate this evidence or to develop an adequate alternative scenario or explanation. However, in the light of the creation model's incomplete development, its non-inconsiderable success at explaining that record is exciting and promising indeed. There is little doubt in this author's mind that with the maturity of the creation model will come an explanation of stratomorphic intermediates superior to that of macroevolutionary theory."

[Kurt P. Wise, "Towards a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms." CEN Technical Journal, 1995]

Wise is an honest creationist; he admits that transitionals present a serious problem for creationism, but has faith that someday, there might be a reasonable explanation. He's too honest to deny the facts as they are.

More misrepresentations.

See above. It's what he said.

Kurt Wise, like any faithful Christian, believes the Word of God

He's too honest to say that:

Although there are scientific reasons for accepting a young earth, I am a young age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture.As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate. Here I must stand.
Kurt Wise, In Six Days: Why 50 Scientists Choose to Believe in Creation

Wise admits that he is depending on what seems right to him.


Look at the REAL facts. Evolutionism is so unreasonable

As you now realize, it's directly observed. You're depending on the imaginations of mere men, who revised scripture to meet their own preferences.

The moral of the story is, trust in the Word of God over the imaginations of mere men.
 
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Nope. For example, a fire investigator, looking at a possible arson case, can determine where the fire started, if an accelerant (such as gasoline) was used, and so on. No faith required. Just evidence.

More bait-and-switch. I guess people were not buying your conflation of macroevolution and the Battle of Gettysburg.

As you just learned, it's directly observed. Even many creationists now admit the fact of speciation. Would you like me to show you?

So what? Speciation, which has been observed, is not macroevolution, which can never be observed because it is genetically impossible.

Barbarian observes:
I'm just disassembling your claim that Gould considered inference to be "faith." As you see, he did not. Inference is a way you can learn about the truth, even if you can't have logical certainty. And yet, you can't distinguish inference (which is the way science works) from faith.

There's no point in denying the fact that inference is not faith. You argue just to be arguing.

I hope you are eventually able to convince yourself. Your rationalizations are taking up a lot of bandwidth.

Nope. Even many creationists now admit that what were assumed to be "flood deposits" are nothing of the kind. In the Grand Canyon, for example, we have desert sand deposits, complete with plants and animal burrows in the middle of "flood deposits." There's no way to reconcile that with your story.

References? Evolutionists have a history of taking things out of context, and simply imagining things that do not exist, nor have ever existed. So, from this point forward, if you are going to make claims like that, please have the common courtesy to provide references.

Sounds like a testable claim. Show us one of those boundaries and explain why you think there can be no further variation in that organism.

The answer is as simple as the complexities of the Genome. And now that the Evolutionism Icon ("Myth") of Junk DNA has been thrown into the trash where it rightly belongs, and the astonishing complexities of such structures as the eye have been revealed (much to the chagrin of Richard Dawkins'), we realize that it would be virtually impossible for mutations, which typically result in the loss of information, to transform an animal of any kind into an animal of another kind.

The "boundary" is the information that is already present within a kind. Kinds can "use" that information to "modify itself", in a manner of speaking; or an intellectual designer, such as a dog breeder, can use that information to modify the appearance of a kind. But, as an old wise saying goes, a dog is always a dog.

Inferences are steps in reasoning, moving from premises to logical consequences. Charles Sanders Peirce divided inference into three kinds: deduction, induction, and abduction. Deduction is inference deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true, with the laws of valid inference being studied in logic. Induction is inference from particular premises to a universal conclusion. Abduction is inference to the best explanation.

Statistical inference uses mathematics to draw conclusions in the presence of uncertainty. This generalizes deterministic reasoning, with the absence of uncertainty as a special case. Statistical inference uses quantitative or qualitative (categorical) data which may be subject to random variations.
Inference - Wikipedia

Gibberish. Gould's use of the word inference demands faith since there is no evidence of macroevolution, nor will there ever be.

I don't think you're doing yourself any good with that kind of thing.

Then quit repeating yourself? Quit begging? You will never convince any rational person that Gould did not write what he actually wrote.

Barbarian observes:
For example, we know that the whale Ambulocetus was a freshwater animal, because of the analysis of oxygen ratios in the fossil. The data was obtained by examining the material, after which a confidence level was obtained by statistical inference.

You were fooled again...

Ambulocetus's fossils were recovered from sediments that probably comprised an ancient estuary — and from the isotopes of oxygen in its bones. Animals are what they eat and drink, and saltwater and freshwater have different ratios of oxygen isotopes. This means that we can learn about what sort of water an animal drank by studying the isotopes that were incorporated into its bones and teeth as it grew. The isotopes show that Ambulocetus likely drank both saltwater and freshwater, which fits perfectly with the idea that these animals lived in estuaries or bays between freshwater and the open ocean.
The evolution of whales

Barrick, R.E., A.G. Fischer, Y. Kolodny, B. Luz, and D. Bohaska. 1992. Cetacean bone oxygen isotopes as proxies for Miocene ocean compostion and glaciation. Palaios 7(5):521-531.

That was based on old imaginations, "mined" from a highly fragmented skeleton. At the time it was imagined the Ambulocetus had a whale-like sigmoid process; a thin, whale-like cheek bone; and a blow-hole; all of which proved to be false or "questionable". It also had eyes high up on top of its skull, and was very large for an early whale, according to Phil Gingerich.

Dr. Carl Werner, who interviewed Gingrich and Thewissen, and examined the actual fossils, said, “All eight characters he reported as whale features are disturbingly non-whale features.”

Dr. Don Batten summed it all up by saying, "paleontology is open to fanciful story-telliing".

Amen to that!

They lied to you about that, too:
Macroevolution generally refers to evolution above the species level. So instead of focusing on an individual beetle species, a macroevolutionary lens might require that we zoom out on the tree of life, to assess the diversity of the entire beetle clade and its position on the tree.
What is macroevolution?

How did I lie? I said speciation is not macroevolution, and you claim that is a lie? My definition is right out of Evolution 101 from the University of California Berkeley:

"Speciation is a lineage-splitting event that produces two or more separate species. Imagine that you are looking at a tip of the tree of life that constitutes a species of fruit fly. Move down the phylogeny to where your fruit fly twig is connected to the rest of the tree. That branching point, and every other branching point on the tree, is a speciation event.

Defining speciation
The "branching point" is where the fly changes into another species of fly -- BUT IT IS STILL A FLY! Now to macroevolution:

"Macroevolution generally refers to evolution above the species level. So instead of focusing on an individual beetle species, a macroevolutionary lens might require that we zoom out on the tree of life, to assess the diversity of the entire beetle clade and its position on the tree. Macroevolution encompasses the grandest trends and transformations in evolution, such as the origin of mammals and the radiation of flowering plants. Macroevolutionary patterns are generally what we see when we look at the large-scale history of life.

It is not necessarily easy to "see" macroevolutionary history; there are no firsthand accounts to be read. Instead, we reconstruct the history of life using all available evidence: geology, fossils, and living organisms.

Once we've figured out what evolutionary events have taken place, we try to figure out how they happened. Just as in microevolution, basic evolutionary mechanisms like mutation, migration, genetic drift, and natural selectionare at work and can help explain many large-scale patterns in the history of life.

The basic evolutionary mechanisms — mutation, migration, genetic drift, and natural selection — can produce major evolutionary change if given enough time.

A process like mutation might seem too small-scale to influence a pattern as amazing as the beetle radiation, or as large as the difference between dogs and pine trees, but it's not. Life on Earth has been accumulating mutations and passing them through the filter of natural selection for 3.8 billion years — more than enough time for evolutionary processes to produce its grand history."

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo
_48​

Perhaps you should retake the course in Evolution 101, and pay attention this time.

Microevolution is evolution within a species. Macroevolution is the evolution of new taxa. As you see, the ICR's acceptance of new species, genera, and families is an admission of macroevolution. To keep their followers ignorant, they redefined the term to mean "evolution so far that no one could ever live to see it happen."

Yeah, right.

(claim that David Duke accepts evolution) I bet he accepts electricity and chemistry, too, the scoundrel.

Ya reckon?

By the way, have you read this by Henry Morris, ICR director and one of the founders of YE creationism?
His version of YE creationism requires him to believe that blacks are intellectually and spiritually inferior to other people.

Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow they have only gone so far and no farther. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories, and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they have eventually been displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites.
Henry Morris, The Beginning Of the World, Second Edition (1991), pp. 147-148:

Cool, huh?

Perhaps he should have been a evolutionist:

"Biological arguments based on innate inferiority spread rapidly after evolutionary theory permitted a literal equation of modern"lower" races with ancestral stages of higher forms." [Stephen Jay Gould, "Ontogeny and Phylogeny." 1992]

Or, maybe not. In that same book did Morris not also write?

“A race, in evolutionary terminology, is a sub-species evolving into a new species but, in reality, there is no such thing. That is, as far as mankind is concerned, there is only one race — the human race.”

That is consistent with the biblie creation story, as well as this declaration from the book of the Acts:

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" -- Acts 17:24-26 KJV

Cool, huh?

YE creationists added all sorts of things to scripture, like a young earth, a worldwide flood, life ex nihilo, and so on.

I had no idea you were so clueless about the Bible. Theistic evolutionists MUST explain away the plain words of the scripture in order to deny a 6-day creation, created (not evolved) kinds, the unique creation of man and woman in the image of God, and a global flood.

From what I have read thus far, it is doubtful you know enough about the Bible to make even a reasonable argument in defense of the bizarre way you have to twist God's Word to make it fit your YE anti-God worldview.

You made the accusation. Now we shall see if you can back them up. I won't hold my breath.

Dan
 
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You, for example, did. However, you seem to have been unaware that Gould, like your fellow creationist Kurt Wise, pointed out numerous examples of transitional forms.

Of course. At the time it is doubtful neither realized that many of the transitional "characteristics" were imagined from fragmented skeletons. And, of course, Kurt Wise is much too kind to label anyone a liar on such flimsy evidence.

(Kurt Wise admits that the facts can be reconciled with creationism, but expresses faith that they might someday be so)

"Substantial supporting evidence of macroevolutionary theory can be found in the fossil record of stratomorphic intermediates. Additionally, the creation model is not well enough developed at present to properly evaluate this evidence or to develop an adequate alternative scenario or explanation. However, in the light of the creation model's incomplete development, its non-inconsiderable success at explaining that record is exciting and promising indeed. There is little doubt in this author's mind that with the maturity of the creation model will come an explanation of stratomorphic intermediates superior to that of macroevolutionary theory."

[Kurt P. Wise, "Towards a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms." CEN Technical Journal, 1995]

Wise is an honest creationist; he admits that transitionals present a serious problem for creationism, but has faith that someday, there might be a reasonable explanation. He's too honest to deny the facts as they are.



See above. It's what he said.



He's too honest to say that:

Although there are scientific reasons for accepting a young earth, I am a young age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture.As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate. Here I must stand.
Kurt Wise, In Six Days: Why 50 Scientists Choose to Believe in Creation


Wise admits that he is depending on what seems right to him.

That is how faith works. You have faith in unprovable speculations called evolutionism; Kurt Wise has faith in the Word of God.

Over the past 20+ years since Wise made those statements, evolutionism has become less and less convincing, and creation science more and more believable, as Wise predicted/implied.

I am not sure what your point it.


As you now realize, it's directly observed.

You gotta quit making stuff up. No one has observed macroevolution. If you are referring to Wise, he simply believed what he was told at the time.

You are depending on the imaginations of mere men, who revise scripture to meet their own preferences and/or to maintain their place in the "intellectual" pecking order (e.g., to avoid being shunned by the evolutionism orthodoxy and their cult following).

The moral of the story is, trust in the Word of God over the imaginations of mere men.

BTW, when are you going to show me where and how I misinterpreted the Word of God? You made the claim, now back it up.

You know you cannot, so you obsfuscate, under the pretense of mockery. I seriously doubt you have ever studied the Bible, except maybe to get a "star" in Sunday School.

Dan
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian, regarding the claim that we can't know anything we didn't directly observes:
Nope. For example, a fire investigator, looking at a possible arson case, can determine where the fire started, if an accelerant (such as gasoline) was used, and so on. No faith required. Just evidence.

More bait-and-switch.

Nice try. As you now realize, your claim is just wrong. Like the Battle of Gettysburg, the origins of a fire are knowable, even if you never saw it happen.

As you just learned, it's directly observed. Even many creationists now admit the fact of speciation. Would you like me to show you?


So your denial of macroevolution goes down in flames.

Speciation, which has been observed, is not macroevolution

No, you're wrong there, too. Macroevolution is the evolution of new taxa. As you learned, many creationists now accept the evolution of new species, genera, and families.

Barbarian observes:
Nope. Even many creationists now admit that what were assumed to be "flood deposits" are nothing of the kind. In the Grand Canyon, for example, we have desert sand deposits, complete with plants and animal burrows in the middle of "flood deposits." There's no way to reconcile that with your story.

References?

Coconino Sandstone formed about 275 million years ago as the area dried out and sand dunes made of quartz sand invaded a growing desert (see 6b in figure 1).[10] Some Coconino fills deep mudcracks in the underlying Hermit Shale[38] and the desert that created the Coconino lasted for 5 to 10 million years.[46] Today, the Coconino is a 57 to 600 feet (17 to 183 m) thick golden white to cream-colored cliff-former near the canyon's rim.[47] Cross bedding patterns of the frosted, fine-grained, well-sorted and rounded quartz grains seen in its cliffs is compatible with an eolian environment.[48][32][49] Also fossilized are tracks from lizard-like creatures and what look like tracks from millipedes and scorpions
Geology of the Grand Canyon area - Wikipedia

So explain to us, how in the middle of a worldwide flood, did an entire desert ecosystem have time form on top of "flood deposits", and then be buried in some more "flood deposits?"

Creationists have a history of taking things out of context, and simply imagining things that do not exist, nor have ever existed. As you now realize your flood story will have to explain how entire desert ecosystems had time to appear and then be buried in a year-long flood. Good luck since creationists often make up stories without foundation, please include evidence with your explanation for this.

Barbarian re the unsupported claim that there are magical limits to the variation of "kinds":
Sounds like a testable claim. Show us one of those boundaries and explain why you think there can be no further variation in that organism.

The answer is as simple as the complexities of the Genome.

No one else can find any, either. Creationists make those assertions and then throw up excuses as to why they have no evidence.

And now that the Evolutionism Icon ("Myth") of Junk DNA

As you learned earlier, scientists were finding functions for non-coding DNA (the stuff that creationists call "junk DNA" over half a century ago. Because you have no clue about genetics, this is all a mystery to you.

And now you're recycling the "information" dodge on mutations. Last time I called you out on that, I suggested you show us your numbers, on how a mutation reduces information in a population genome. You cut and ran from the question. So I'll ask you again. Show us.

Barbarian demonstrates how inference is not faith:
Inferences are steps in reasoning, moving from premises to logical consequences. Charles Sanders Peirce divided inference into three kinds: deduction, induction, and abduction. Deduction is inference deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true, with the laws of valid inference being studied in logic. Induction is inference from particular premises to a universal conclusion. Abduction is inference to the best explanation.

Statistical inference uses mathematics to draw conclusions in the presence of uncertainty. This generalizes deterministic reasoning, with the absence of uncertainty as a special case. Statistical inference uses quantitative or qualitative (categorical) data which may be subject to random variations.
Inference - Wikipedia

Gibberish.

Nope. As you learned, it's the way we know most things in this world. Scientists use statistical inference to be sure they get things right. Would you like to learn how it works?

Gould's use of the word inference demands faith since there is no evidence of macroevolution,

I know you want to believe that, but as your fellow YE creationist admits there is "strong evidence" for macroevolution. No point in denying the fact. You will never convince any rational person that Gould did not write what he actually wrote.

Since you're in full Gish Gallop mode, we'll continue in another post...
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
For example, we know that the whale Ambulocetus was a freshwater animal, because of the analysis of oxygen ratios in the fossil. The data was obtained by examining the material, after which a confidence level was obtained by statistical inference.

Ambulocetus's fossils were recovered from sediments that probably comprised an ancient estuary — and from the isotopes of oxygen in its bones. Animals are what they eat and drink, and saltwater and freshwater have different ratios of oxygen isotopes. This means that we can learn about what sort of water an animal drank by studying the isotopes that were incorporated into its bones and teeth as it grew. The isotopes show that Ambulocetus likely drank both saltwater and freshwater, which fits perfectly with the idea that these animals lived in estuaries or bays between freshwater and the open ocean.
The evolution of whales


Barrick, R.E., A.G. Fischer, Y. Kolodny, B. Luz, and D. Bohaska. 1992. Cetacean bone oxygen isotopes as proxies for Miocene ocean compostion and glaciation. Palaios 7(5):521-531.

That was based on old imaginations, "mined" from a highly fragmented skeleton.

Nope. Analysis of oxygen isotope ratios shows Ambulocetus to be a fresh-water animal, living in estuaries where seawater mixes with fresh. And we can check that conclusion by looking at oxygen ratios in estuary-living organisms today.

At the time it was imagined the Ambulocetus had a whale-like sigmoid process; a thin, whale-like cheek bone;

Given its slim, unprepossessing appearance--no more than 10 feet long and 500 pounds dripping wet-- how do paleontologists know that Ambulocetus was ancestral to whales? For one thing, the tiny bones in this mammal's inner ears were similar to those of modern cetaceans, as was its ability to swallow underwater (an important adaptation given its fish-eating diet) and its whale-like teeth.
Ambulocetus Facts

Several features shared with other basal cetaceans indicate the close affinities of Ambulocetus with these animals; it had an adaptation in the nose that enabled it to swallow underwater, and its periotic bone's structure was like those of whales, enabling it to hear well underwater. In addition, its teeth are similar to those of other early cetaceans.
Ambulocetus - Wikipedia

and a blow-hole;

Nope. The skull shows the nostrils to be only slightly moved backwards on the head, transitional between the skulls of early cetaceans like Pakicetus, which had nostrils at the front of the muzzle, and later cetaceans, which had the nostrils farther back on the head, like Dorudon. Would you like to learn more about how the transition occurred in whales?

It also had eyes high up on top of its skull,

Like most mammals adapted to aquatic life. However, unlike Pakicetus and Indohyus, the eyes had moved down to the side of the head, again transitional between early whales and later whales like Dorudon. Are you beginning to get some idea of the way transitions work?

and was very large for an early whale, according to Phil Gingerich.

Earlier whales were wolflike in size, perhaps 150 pounds. Ambulocetus was possibly as much as 500 pounds. Later whales like Dorudon, were up to 16 feet long. Again, as you now realize, Ambulocetus was transitional in that respect, too.

(unsupported creationist claims)

How did I lie?

You seem to have been lied to.

I said speciation is not macroevolution,

That's wrong. Macroevolution is the evolution of new taxa. Microevolution is evolution within a species. As your source admits:

Macroevolution generally refers to evolution above the species level.

Perhaps you didn't realize what "above the species level" means.

(Barbarian notes that Henry Morris, being a YE creationist, believed that black people are intellectually and spiritually inferior to other people)

Perhaps he should have been a evolutionist:

He might have been an evolutionist in 1800s, when it was still unclear about human variation. But by the 1990s, when Morris wrote his creationist slander against blacks, evolutionary theory had shown that there are no biological human races. Morris' racism was based on his religious ideas, not science.

Morris was far from the only one. His fellow founder Dr. Sprinkle, was an enthusiastic eugenicist:
Thus, on the eve of the Apollo moon landing, the Secretary of the preeminent Creationist organization in the US was denouncing the teaching of evolution as immoral, but thought sterilization on the “feeble-minded” was A-OK. I hope Dr. West & C will include this interesting case in their future discussions of how “Darwinism” was the origin and key motivation for eugenics, and materialism its philosophical basis.
Dr. West, meet Dr. Tinkle, Creationist eugenicist


Cool, huh? It is no accident that YE creationism is strongest where racial segregation was the law.

Barbarian observes:
YE creationists added all sorts of things to scripture, like a young earth, a worldwide flood, life ex nihilo, and so on.

I had no idea you were so clueless about the Bible.

If you studied the Bible, you would learn that a literal six-day creation was never Christian orthodoxy. And the Bible does not say the flood was global. The term it uses, "eretz" means "land", which can be used as "my land", "hereabouts", "this nation", and so on. In the widest connotation, it means "from horizon to horizon", i.e. "under heaven." And God specifically denies life ex nihilo, telling us that life came from previously created things.

YE creationists MUST explain away the plain words of the scripture in order to deny God's word in Genesis.
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
You, for example, did. However, you seem to have been unaware that Gould, like your fellow creationist Kurt Wise, pointed out numerous examples of transitional forms.

Of course. At the time it is doubtful neither realized that many of the transitional "characteristics" were imagined from fragmented skeletons.

Let's see what Wise thought about that:
Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
Kurt Wise Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

And, of course, Kurt Wise is much too kind to label anyone a liar on such flimsy evidence.

As you know, he acknowledged that such transitional forms are strong evidence for macroevolution.

Barbarian, regarding why Wise doesn't accept the evidence, in spite of his being aware of it:
Wise admits that he is depending on what seems right to him.

That is how faith works.

Yes. He believes by faith, and ignores evidence. That's what creationists do. But instead of God, they
have faith in unprovable speculations called YE creationism; Kurt Wise has faith in that man-made doctrine.

Over the past 20+ years since Wise made those statements, evolutionism has become less and less convincing

Wise expressed hope that might become so. but it didn't pan out. Many, many more predicted transitionals have turned up since then, and not one transitional turned up were the theory said it shouldn't. Would you like me to show you some of them?

Meantime, creationism is fading slowly, as even evangelicals are beginning to abandon that Adventist doctrine:

In U.S., Belief in Creationist View of Humans at New Low
38% say God created man in present form, lowest in 35 years
In U.S., Belief in Creationist View of Humans at New Low

and creation science more and more believable

Americans disagree with you.

I am not sure what your point it.

The bandwagon argument is a loser for YE creationism.

 
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NobleMouse

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@Bible Research Tools (Dan) - thank you for your contributions to this discussion! You have endured very well, standing upon the truth and strength of God's word.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@The Barbarian
I could always tell when various individuals here were discussing this topic with you, because it has mirrored my own experience. I'm going to come across as "preachy" and so I'm preaching as a reminder to myself as much as saying it to you.

I think if the real me met the real you under a scenario where we were not discussing the topic of evolution, I would not be surprised if I found myself enjoying the fellowship in your good company, not realizing you were "The Barbarian" and you not realizing I was "Noble Mouse". I find no difficulty with who you are and respect who you are as a person, but as I see many here have experienced, I have difficulty with your rules of engagement (or maybe lack thereof) in these discussions.

To elaborate: we are all equally entitled to our opinions and everyone here is also equally entitled to express their opinions. I sense and believe most people here (on both sides, whether in favor of biblical creation or evolution) take a good deal of effort and time, if they are anything like me, to present their position, support it with research - sourcing from the Bible, scholarly scientific sources, etc..., and composing what I can tell is a well-thought post... even if I do not agree. Picture a formal debate where each candidate makes their opening remarks in favor of their position, then each has an opportunity to take notes, do quick research and respond in turn to claims made by their opponent.

While I and others here may disagree with you and others here regarding the evolutionary paradigm, you can go back through the posts in this thread and generally see where initially, intentional effort and time has been made to read your remarks and respond in turn with the opposing remark and supporting research for a biblical creation worldview. This, is a demonstration of respect - the time was taken to read your remarks and a thoughtful and supported response was composed.

In return; however, it really comes across that the same level of effort and respect is not being reciprocated from you. Bible Research Tools put it well in that it seems you are arguing just to argue. Even in the face of direct quotes (in their full context) against your viewpoint, with supported research also against your viewpoint, responses like "No. Macroevolution is fact and has been observed." comes across as you, standing at your podium, as if cutting off your opponent before they are even done presenting, while plugging your ears and in vain repetition chanting the evolutionary dogma - providing no substantive language or support behind your position.

Now there are no formal written rules on "etiquette" here as far as that goes (other than no name-calling nor explicit language), but your method of debate comes across as dogmatic, pompous, and disrespectful - and most will find this intolerable and quickly lose interest, hence why I suspect I see many that no longer interact with you on this and other similar threads. In time it wears on people and becomes like a noisy gong or clanging cymbal, and people just move on, having not changed their opinion about what they believe at all, but now having a biased and unfavorable opinion against you (which is unfair to you as this probably doesn't give everyone a true perspective of the real you). Your approach really distracts away from the content of your message - the old adage of "people don't care how much you know unless they know how much you care" seems to apply here. If the present interaction model is your goal, then by all means continue. If; however, your goal is to convince others that your paradigm is correct, then you cannot win them over with incessant barking and simply citing yourself as the "authority" - it does more damage to your position than you think you are defending it, more of an effort needs to be made to support your position and if we can demonstrate a level of respect for one another, I think it will go a long way towards the discussion.

Lastly, I'll ask that if you're going to accuse Christians here who believe the word of God means what it says (ex. Genesis 1 is talking about an actual 6-day creation, as it states (whether in Hebrew, the Greek Septuagint, or an English translation) and is supported as being 6 24-hr days by Exodus 20:11), as having "revised", "re-interpreted", or even "misinterpreted" the word of God, that you please support your argument with actual text from Scripture... something beyond just stating things like "YE creationists added all sorts of things to scripture, like a young earth, a worldwide flood, life ex nihilo, and so on." Similarly, if you believe the word of God supports billions of years and progressive evolution of all life from a universal common ancestor, please cite the verse(s) accordingly.
 
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The Barbarian

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While I and others here may disagree with you and others here regarding the evolutionary paradigm, you can go back through the posts in this thread and generally see where initially, intentional effort and time has been made to read your remarks and respond in turn with the opposing remark and supporting research for a biblical creation worldview.

In science, "Blah,Blah,Blay", "Baloney", etc. are not considered "effort and time to read remarks." I can assure you that they are not the mark of Biblical research.

This, is a demonstration of respect

I don't see that as respectful.

the time was taken to read your remarks and a thoughtful and supported response was composed.

I don't see it as thoughtful, either.

In return; however, it really comes across that the same level of effort and respect is not being reciprocated from you. Bible Research Tools put it well in that it seems you are arguing just to argue. Even in the face of direct quotes (in their full context) against your viewpoint, with supported research also against your viewpoint, responses like "No. Macroevolution is fact and has been observed."

I provided evidence for it. On the other hand, as you read, one person here merely repeated denials, even though they didn't know what "macroevolution" meant.

And as you also saw, I provided a great deal of factual material from research, even from his fellow creationists, whose views he seems to know no better than he knows science.

Now there are no formal written rules on "etiquette" here as far as that goes (other than no name-calling nor explicit language), but your method of debate comes across as dogmatic, pompous, and disrespectful - and most will find this intolerable and quickly lose interest, hence why I suspect I see many that no longer interact with you on this and other similar threads.

All that I ask is that you or anyone else here, be honest and avoid the sort of abusive language I mentioned above. But if one doesn't do that, I don't mind. It really only damages the person who engages in it. As you might have known, I tried to gently remind one person here, by showing him that generic insults are doors that swing both ways; he never took the hint.

In time it wears on people and becomes like a noisy gong or clanging cymbal, and people just move on, having not changed their opinion about what they believe at all,

As I said, it serves him badly. I don't expect him to change, but there are people on the fence reading these exchanges, and some of them are swayed by behavior as much as they are swayed by facts. Maybe it shouildn't be that way, but it is. So aggressive behavior really does no good for one's arguments. Indeed when the response to a scientific paper's data is "blah,blah,blah, most reasonable people would think that it was because someone lacks the means to address the issue knowledgeably.

Your approach really distracts away from the content of your message

If you think so, it's unfortunate, but facts are what make a scientific argument work.

If the present interaction model is your goal, then by all means continue. If; however, your goal is to convince others that your paradigm is correct

Remember, the participants in these discussions usually don't change their minds. But some of the onlookers do. Perhaps they can sort out the "baloney" and "blah, blah, blah" stuff and consider the cited evidence presented.

then you cannot win them over with incessant barking and simply citing yourself as the "authority"

You should never present yourself as the "authority." I merely cite the evidence and let it work by itself. If a certain other can find a way to act respectfully, and cease the angry accusations, he might do better in the future.

Lastly, I'll ask that if you're going to accuse Christians here who believe the word of God means what it says

I don't believe their revision of what it says. As you might know, Christians from the beginning have seen Genesis "days" (actually "yom") as figurative, noting that mornings and evenings with no Sun would be absurd if re-interpreted as a literal history.

Genesis has nothing to say either to support or to deny evolution. However, it is directly observed, and speciation is a fact. Would you like to review the different sources of evidence confirming common descent, again?
 
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NobleMouse

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In science, "Blah,Blah,Blay", "Baloney", etc. are not considered "effort and time to read remarks." I can assure you that they are not the mark of Biblical research.
I think this is just the result of reaping what has been sown... My experience here has been that the comments do not start out this way... but move to this conclusion after repeated interactions back and forth. I've seen this with just about everyone here, myself included.

I don't see that as respectful.
The alternative would be just to ignore you altogether... which in time, is what I am seeing. I'm not advocating this as appropriate or "good", but rather appears to be the end result.

I don't see it as thoughtful, either.
My focus is on the initial interaction... initially, I find the comments from both sides are generally very thoughtful and respectful.

I provided evidence for it. On the other hand, as you read, one person here merely repeated denials, even though they didn't know what "macroevolution" meant.

And as you also saw, I provided a great deal of factual material from research, even from his fellow creationists, whose views he seems to know no better than he knows science.
And I think this is where you were called out on taking a quote out of context. Kurt Wise is a biblical creationist, that is his position. If in 1990's he made a comment indicating a case where evidence fit the evolutionary paradigm, this does not mean that he has conceded his position. Ultimately, Wise and fellow creationists believe God created complex life that would resemble the life forms we see here in the present, that He did so at creation, and did not use a millions- or billions-of-years process to arrive where we are today. Do you agree that Kurt Wise (today/now) is a biblical creationist? Do you agree that his view (today/now) is that of a recent creation? This should settle the position of where Kurt Wise believes the truth lies, regardless of prior comments and one's interpretation of them.

All that I ask is that you or anyone else here, be honest and avoid the sort of abusive language I mentioned above. But if one doesn't do that, I don't mind. It really only damages the person who engages in it. As you might have known, I tried to gently remind one person here, by showing him that generic insults are doors that swing both ways; he never took the hint.
I think that is fair - I think we can all extend each other a little grace to each other though we disagree on the topic of origins.

As I said, it serves him badly. I don't expect him to change, but there are people on the fence reading these exchanges, and some of them are swayed by behavior as much as they are swayed by facts. Maybe it shouildn't be that way, but it is. So aggressive behavior really does no good for one's arguments. Indeed when the response to a scientific paper's data is "blah,blah,blah, most reasonable people would think that it was because someone lacks the means to address the issue knowledgeably.
I see these exchanges going both ways.

If you think so, it's unfortunate, but facts are what make a scientific argument work.
Just to clarify, what you're calling 'facts' and are significantly influenced by assumptions, a biased/subjective interpretation, and unfalsifiable beliefts; and from my perspective, are no where alluded to within the authoritative word of God.

Remember, the participants in these discussions usually don't change their minds. But some of the onlookers do. Perhaps they can sort out the "baloney" and "blah, blah, blah" stuff and consider the cited evidence presented.
This is a perfect example of an unfalsifiable belief. Are there Gallup surveys being taken that quantify the idea that onlookers are being influenced by these discussions... I seriously doubt (1) this is happening, and (2) that a truly effective and unbiased survey could be developed that would yield reliable results as to whether onlookers are changing their minds.

You should never present yourself as the "authority." I merely cite the evidence and let it work by itself. If a certain other can find a way to act respectfully, and cease the angry accusations, he might do better in the future.
Agreed. Citing evidence without providing a reference though just comes across as coming from you. On such a hot topic as this, nobody is going to accept anything at face value... regardless of your background, education, or experience. We always need to provide some reference, adding substance to generalities like:

"Evolution has been observed directly, but it does not depend on any particular age of the Earth."

This is a good start for your position, but now provide the reference where (macro)evolution has been observed directly, and clarifying what you mean by not depending on any particular age of the Earth... because earlier you indicated that Darwin defended an argument against Kelvin regarding the age of the earth, asserting that a particular age of the earth IS dependent.

I don't believe their revision of what it says. As you might know, Christians from the beginning have seen Genesis "days" (actually "yom") as figurative, noting that mornings and evenings with no Sun would be absurd if re-interpreted as a literal history.
Good, here is perfect example. You assert that Christians from the beginning have seen Genesis "days" as figurative - yet no scriptural support, nor sources cited/referenced. This is why you get responses like "baloney" and "blah blah blah" back. By the way, when is Yom Kippur this year? You explicitly say "from the beginning" - implying that your viewpoint of yom <> a 24-hr day has never deviated from being a figurative interpretation. Please find for me the 4th commandment in the context of Exodus 20:11 and explain how one would follow or adhere to this commandment under the figurative interpretation of yom.

Genesis has nothing to say either to support or to deny evolution. However, it is directly observed, and speciation is a fact. Would you like to review the different sources of evidence confirming common descent, again?
As you indicated in an earlier post, Darwin defended his position regarding the age of the earth in that it could not be less than 100 million years old. Now, I understand you interpret yom in Genesis, numbered, with morning and evening as not being a day, BUT, I think if you look up the 4th commandment, read Exodus 20:11, look up when Yom Kippur is this year, you'll find that "yom" really does fit into the context of an 24-hr day (in every case), and never is representative of something like a billion years in any of these contexts. Now, in 2 Peter 3:8 we read that a day is a thousand years and a thousand years are like a day, right? What's this talking about? Let's look at some commentary on this:

Benson Commentary (sorry is lengthy)
"2 Peter 3:8. Be not ye ignorant — Whatever they are; of this one thing — Which casts much light on the point in hand; that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day — This is an allusion to Psalm 90:4, where Moses had said, A thousand years in thy sight are as one day, which words St. Peter applies with regard to the period intervening between the time when he wrote, and the last day; denoting thereby, 1st, God’s eternity, whereby he exceeds all measure of time in his essence and in his operation: 2d, His knowledge, to which all things past, or to come, are present every moment: 3d, His power, which needs no long delay in order to bring his work to perfection: and, 4th, His long-suffering, which excludes all impatience of expectation and desire of making haste. But it must be observed, that neither the apostle nor the psalmist meant that God does not perceive any difference between the duration of a day and that of a thousand years; but that these differences do not affect either his designs, or actions, or felicity, as they do those of finite creatures. So that what he brings to pass on the day he declares his purpose, is not more certain than what he will bring to pass a thousand years after such declaration. In like manner, what is to be brought to pass a long time after his declaration, is not less certain than if it had been done when declared. See Abernethy’s Sermon’s, vol. 1. p. 218. The apostle’s meaning is in substance, that in one day, yea, in one moment, he could do the work of a thousand years; therefore he is not slow, he is always equally able, equally ready to fulfil his promise; and a thousand years, yea, the longest time, is no more delay to the eternal God than one day is to us: therefore he is longsuffering; he gives us space for repentance without any inconvenience to himself. In a word, with God time passes neither slower nor swifter than is suitable to him and his economy. Nor can there be any reason why it should be necessary for him either to delay or hasten the end of all things. How can we comprehend this? If we could have comprehended it, St. Peter needed not to have added, with the Lord."


What's the context? Well in 2 Peter 3 we are reading about where the apostle Peter is talking about the day of the Lord and He will fulfill His promise in His perfect timing... this has absolutely nothing to do with reinterpreting the days of Genesis as being ambiguous, long periods of time. As the commentary above also indicates, God (while eternal Himself) is aware of the passage of time and time duration as a concept and so there are no grounds for assuming when God says day with morning and evening sequenced in number, also used in context for recognizing a weekly Sabbath, that He is intending to be mysterious, confusing and ambiguous.

Also, Genesis makes it clear that fish and birds were created the same day and this was BEFORE the beasts of the field. Evolution says birds came from land-dwelling dinosaurs, which would be AFTER. Genesis also makes it clear that man was created in God's image, but from what? The dust of the earth... not from the beasts of the field. Evolution says man evolved from a common ancestor with modern apes/chimps, etc... (a beast of the field). Do you agree that this is what scripture says?

Lastly, I'm not sure anyone here really knows exactly what is your view is on evolution, since there can be many variations on this topic. Could you please elaborate from a time scale perspective as well as whether you believe in LUCA (Last Universal Common Ancestor)? I don't think anybody here has issue with what you might call microevolution or possibly speciation (although it would be good to establish agreed-upon definitions so that we are all on the same page). Biblical creationists generally find issue with the concept often referred to as macroevolution and LUCA. This may help give some context of where you're coming from because some of the comments like evolution not needing a particular age of the earth implies you possibly might have some view of evolution that is accelerated or abbreviated from what is traditionally held within mainstream science.
 
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