Is evolution a fact or theory?

[Job 33:6]

@NobleMouse

Give the above transitions, i would say that I disagree with his claims that appear to suggest that no such transitions exist. In fact, the fossil record consists of nothing but transitions, its just a matter of how far of a timespan you cover when observing it.

Of course everything will appear to be in a form of stasis if you dont look at layers above and below it by several million years. at least in a general sense.

so, without clarity on Mr.Wise's words, I would just have to disagree with him.

Can you clarify on what he is talking about? Could you give a specific example?

 

[Job 33:6]

I'd actually like for you to have the final word by explaining why you continue to reject the flood model when the conventional evolutionary model does not fit the fossil record 95% of the time, cannot explain soft tissue, blood vessels, and DNA found in fossils 65+Ma old, cannot explain human written records of dinosaurs, cannot explain renderings of dinosaurs by humans, and most of all cannot explain references to dinosaurs made in the Bible (Job)?

Face it head on... "I reject the flood model as an explanation for the fossil record, even though the conventional model has been shown inadequate for a number of years and for many reasons, because... _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________.

God bless!

I reject the global flood model because it is insufficient in explaining the evidence. Perhaps you dont agree with me, but the fact of the matter is that only one of us is actually a scientist who regularly works with this stuff. I wouldnt expect you to agree with me, no more than i would expect a brain surgeon to agree with my opinion on how to perform brain surgery. Nor an engineer that would agree with my opinion on how to build a bridge, or things like this.

See my above post for my response to the Mr. Wise video. Also, see above for my response to the blood vessel topic.

God Bless friend.

 

[NobleMouse]

To this day, you have no provided valid reasons to justify your position. Which is why I and, most others do not bother with it.

The Bible is not valid?

While it isnt conventional wisdom that soft tissue could last millions of years when captured within the crystal lattice of a mineral...it isnt something that I would say is necessarily impossible.

Prove it. While we're waiting for the 65-million-year long experiment to run its course, do you have a Bible passage that gives hints of supporting this view? I've got passages for my position.

In fact i believe there are perhaps other cases, despite it being rare.

So, from an evolutionary standpoint, this isnt necessarily an issue. Unless you are aware of some sort of research that states rates at which tissue disintegrates after rapid burial. Which really, we have specimen such as the whooly mammoths that have been frozen for thousands of years and they still have soft tissue. So the question becomes, how long can soft tissue last if its protected?

Yes, you have already proven it... remember? Most fossils don't have any soft tissue at all... Let's say it's not an issue for the evolutionary standpoint... how does evolution predict the written records and renderings by humans who supposedly missed dinosaurs by 62+ million years? Keep thinking big picture, we have to factor in all of the known evidence, all of it.

On the other hand, if these animals were all just a few thousand years old, you would think that perhaps 100% of them would all have soft tissue, as opposed to having minerals precipitated through the pores of their bones.

And this is based upon what research? You would think that perhaps 100% of them would all have soft tissue, but why? Just because?

I must have missed the part where Mr.Wise demonstrated that the succession miss aligns with predictions of the theory. I'll watch it again.

I think the sequence order not lining up by 95% was brought up almost exactly at the 33:00 mark, give or take a little.

 

[NobleMouse]

I reject the global flood model because it is insufficient in explaining the evidence. Perhaps you dont agree with me, but the fact of the matter is that only one of us is actually a scientist who regularly works with this stuff. I wouldnt expect you to agree with me, no more than i would expect a brain surgeon to agree with my opinion on how to perform brain surgery. Nor an engineer that would agree with my opinion on how to build a bridge, or things like this.

See my above post for my response to the Mr. Wise video. Also, see above for my response to the blood vessel topic.

God Bless friend.

Fair enough and thank you for your response.

What you are saying deals with things neither of us has ever seen (unless you were around during the events of creation). A brain surgeon works with things that are testable, falsifiable, and has been proven here in the present... same with an engineer. How would you draw a parallel to hypothesizing events that happened, say over a billion years ago to professions that make no such claims of unseen things? It would seem to me that the only way to know, for sure, is to trust the One who was there.

 

[NobleMouse]

@NobleMouse

Give the above transitions, i would say that I disagree with his claims that appear to suggest that no such transitions exist. In fact, the fossil record consists of nothing but transitions, its just a matter of how far of a timespan you cover when observing it.

Of course everything will appear to be in a form of stasis if you dont look at layers above and below it by several million years. at least in a general sense.

so, without clarity on Mr.Wise's words, I would just have to disagree with him.

Can you clarify on what he is talking about? Could you give a specific example?

All life shows up, fully formed and fully working as has been indicated before on this thread... there are no fossils of animals with which all parts do not serve a purpose... even life in the Cambrian layer has complex eyes... as complex as eyes today. There is no genetic mechanism that slowly brings about these complex features. Even secular scientists have admitted that life abruptly shows up and abruptly ends in the fossil record. Not true? I think the existence of the hypothesis of Punctuated Equilibrium would beg to differ (creationists didn't invent that), so no value in diving into the weeds when that exercise has apparently already been done, repeatedly. Life abruptly appearing and going extinct is what the biblical creation model would expect.

 

[Job 33:6]

"Prove it. While we're waiting for the 65-million-year long experiment to run its course, do you have a Bible passage that gives hints of supporting this view? I've got passages for my position."

If you said that someone traveled around the planet 100 times, and you told me that it was evidence against evolution because evolution states that it is impossible, and I turned and said, well, it doesnt seem impossible to me, nor does it seem to contradict evolution....

Then you cant turn to me and say "well, you need to prove that you can travel around the world 100 times, in order to demonstrate that it is possible, in order to refute my claim of impossibility."

Thats not how logic works. You make the claim, and you justify it. Which is why I had asked you if you were aware of any research demonstrating why soft tissue could not last millions of years if protected in a definite crystal lattice after rapid burial.

"how does evolution predict the written records "

If the best evidence you can come up with for the recent existence of live dinosaurs, are obscure drawings and odd language about behemoths in old literature, then its no wonder nobody takes such a position seriously.

Thankfully, it is we the scientists who are in control of the classrooms. Thats about all I can say in response to the above comments.

" Even secular scientists have admitted that life abruptly shows up and abruptly ends in the fossil record. Not true?"

Even Gould acknowledged forms of speciation via mutation and natural selection as a potential means by which common descent has occurred. You should read his research so that you understand what he is saying.

 

[Job 33:6]

And, ive said it before, and ill have to say it again. Youre very adamant about arguing in favor of a young earth, on scientific grounds. But, as far as I am aware, you dont seem to actually be familiar with geology.

If you really want to get into it, take some time, read some books, and catch me over at one of my old earth geology threads listed in my signature. I dont plan on going anywhere, and will be available to view your response.

And go read some of goulds material too while youre at it. He has a few great books as well, I highly recommend reading a wonderful life. And of course, his publications on punctuated equilibrium. If you would like, we can read his research together and we can discuss the actual meaning of PE and what it means about how evolution occurs. As of right now, i wonder if you have read any of his research or books. I wouldnt think so. Yet you are referring to his works as if you know about them.

 

[Bible Research Tools]

There are a ton of theropods flowing in with evidence of feathers. This is something that is a relatively recent discovery, but theyre here.

Maniraptora - Wikipedia
Troodontidae - Wikipedia
Dromaeosauridae - Wikipedia
Jinfengopteryx - Wikipedia
Aurornis - Wikipedia
Eosinopteryx - Wikipedia

I took some time to examine those feathered dinosaurs, and I am still unconvinced that they are both feathered and dinosaur. After all, there have been some "forged" fossils fraudulent reporting. Are you aware that one of Carl Werner's documentaries pointed out some shady practices by National Geographic and Nature in regards to a supposed "feathered dinosaur"? The segment begins at the 16:57 mark:

I was somewhat amused by this statement in the film by Dr. Storrs Olson, Smithsonian Institute:

"the theropod origin of birds is being actively promulgated by a cadre of zealous scientists acting in concert with certain editors at Nature and National Geographic who themselves have become outspoken and highly biased proselytizers of the faith."​

The "faith"? I have been saying that for years -- that evolutionism is a faith-based religion.

You're trying to fight a small battle, while a much larger war is hammering down on young earthers. If this were baseball, you would be fighting to steal a base, while we are scoring grand slams.

I am quite comfortable swatting away these annoying little misdirections, since I know full well there are no transitional fossil lines, nor are there explanations for many geological features that completely contradict the evolution narrative of strata formation.

The guy in the youtube video already dropped the ball by not providing evidence that mesozoic flamingos existed.

He is still holding the ball.

You have this other youtube video with a guy saying that the fossils go from sea to land, but in the case of whales, they dont. And these fossils match the DNA.

There is no evidence that a land animal evolved into a whale: not from the fossil record, not from DNA -- NONE!

But I will make it easy on you. Show us a mere 100 fossilized transitional forms that could reasonably depict any land animal morphing into a whale, or into any other creature, and I will repent and declare evolution to be true.

For the record, your presentation of charts reminds me of the shady professor, used-car salesman, and book peddler named Ken Miller, who, many years ago in a debate with ID'ers, loudly brought out (bogus) charts on whale evolution and Haeckel's embryos in an underhanded attempt to ridicule and silence the opposition. It didn't work, but I will never forget the name Ken Miller.

Really, ultimately it doesnt even matter if it was the main line of theropods that had feathers, or if it was some other theropod group. It just doesnt matter, because the point is that we are hot on the trail, fine tuning the specific details. The war is won, its just a discussion of the fine details.

So, it is not about science, but winning? We already know that to be the case since the orthodoxy recruited the communists (ACLU) and corrupt judges to ram evolutionism down the throats of the people, including our naive children.

Feel free to post evidence for ancient flamingos. I already know they dont exist, but if you think they do, feel free to try to show me. Preferably through means that are beyond the capacity of a youtube video.

Dr. Werner seems to think they existed. I have found no reason to mistrust him.

We have a fossil succession that matches DNA phylogeny. You can watch all the youtube videos you want about some guy talking about trilobites. Im telling you that its there, and its real, and there are hundreds of thousands of research papers on it.

I agree that DNA is one the "building blocks" of life. But from what I have seen, the possibility of DNA mutating in a manner in which macroevolution can occur is zero (maybe less. LOL!).

There are dinosaurs with feathers. Or if you want to be super picky and defensive, at the least, there are archasaurs with feathers that have theropod features. I dont think any scientist denies this. But feathers are just one piece, the point is that, they are found back to back in the succession, just as DNA relatedness demonstrates, and they depict a succession.

God provided all living organisms with DNA; but included a "wall of separation" between the species. Macroevolution has never occurred.

For the record, do you believe humans evolved from an ape, or a chimpanze?

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

The layers are there, whether you believe they are, or not. And we can see them continuing laterally, around the world. To the extent that we can identify layers all the way around the globe.

That is exactly what one would expect from a global flood. But how do evolutionist explain such features as non-eroded, laminate layering (little of no bioturbation), thin coal seam sediment benches, flat coal seams (top and bottom), and polystrate fossils that extend upward through several layers, including multiple coal seams?

Just curious.

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

And we see that these layers are laterally continuous across entire continents. South America looks like it would fit like a puzzle piece right up against Africa. Thats because they were once together, and the rocks are the same. And these layers are not only the same between these two continents, theyre the same between North american and Europe as well, and Australia and Antarctica and more.

Dr. Wise has a wonderful lecture on the geophysics of the flood during which he discusses the TERRA program, developed by creation scientist Dr. John Baumgardner as his PhD thesis, which models the transformation of the single continent (Pangaea?) into our modern continents and mountain ranges:

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

Notice how nobody hid the T-rex bones, the articles were peer reviewed by other scientists and were still published. Contrary to these ideas that people are hiding bizarre fossils in their basements in some giant conspiracy.

Are you saying that since her research was published, that is proof there is no suppression of contrary or opposing research?

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

Dinosaurs were supposed to be the result of angelic tampering. Remember? That is how some here read it.

That is the way I see it now, but it never crossed my mind until a friend posted this:

Why Does The Fossil Record Contain So Many Extinct Species? - Bible Research Tools​

Dan

 

[Bible Research Tools]

The book of Enoch was commentary based upon Biblical understanding of the Jews at that time. It was not divinely inspired. The Jews understood (because they had no problem with understanding Hebrew of the Bible) that the Nephilim were the hybridization of women and angels. Enoch simply puts it into words that spell it out. To us who read obscuring translations? Enoch seems like new news to us.

I wonder which book Jude was quoting?

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints [holy ones], To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." -- Jude 1:14-15 KJV​

The book of Enoch contains the same statement

"And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." -- Enoc 1:9​

Enoch scrolls were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, and precedes the book of Jude.

Dan

 

[GenemZ]

You clearly don't have a real response to my words. So, I'll let you go now. The best responses I've gotten thus far is "you should get out more" and "The first animal in Whale evolution is like the so-called "antichrist"".

This is just meaningless jabber^.

Ill let you have the final word if you would like.

I can see why you want to back out....

He asked the billion dollar question that NEVER has a good answer.



Why are there not a gazillion transitional fossils? Why are there no transitional fossils?

 

[Job 33:6]

I can see why you want to back out....

He asked the billion dollar question that NEVER has a good answer.



Why are there not a gazillion transitional fossils? Why are there no transitional fossils?

Tiktaalik.

Its a tetrapod, found with bosh fish and amphibian traits. It is found in the devonian, right where it was predicted to be. It has robust shoulder bones and ribs like a tetrapod, it does not have a fused skull with its neck vertebrae, yet it has scales and fins like a fish. Its head is like that of a fish as well, yet its eyes are on top, like a crocodile.

It has both fish traits, like scales and fins and gills. But it also has traits that are not fish like, such as its neck and shoulders, and the shape of its skull. It is, both fish and tetrapod, in one. And it is located in the fossil succession, right where one would predict it to be, in the devonian.

All of the earliest tetrapod fossils are found in the middle to late devonian, and this is between the times at which fish dominated, and carboniferous in which reptiles took over. Its a transitional period of amphibious tetrapods.

 

[Bible Research Tools]

You clearly don't have a real response to my words. So, I'll let you go now. The best responses I've gotten thus far is "you should get out more" and "The first animal in Whale evolution is like the so-called "antichrist"".

This is just meaningless jabber^.

Ill let you have the final word if you would like.

Thanks. You have flooded the board with evolution talking points and charts, but you have provided no proof whatsoever that evolution is even a science. After 150 years of feverish digging by thousands of paleontologists, and billions of fossils uncovered, there should be many transitional lines.

So, I'll make it easy on you. Please provide proof of macroevolution by a single line of a mere 50 transitional forms. That should be proof enough that evolution is a science.

Dan

 

[Job 33:6]

 

[4x4toy]

Enoch 7:12 says there were giants over 450' tall originally 4500' but changed .. I don't believe anything about Enoch as being inspired at all .. Titus 1:14 .. but that's me

 

[GenemZ]

I wonder which book Jude was quoting?

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints [holy ones], To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." -- Jude 1:14-15 KJV​

The book Enoch contains the same statement

"And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him." -- Enoc 1:9​

Enoch scrolls were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, and precedes the book of Jude.

Dan

Like I said... it was common understanding amongst those who studied to Torah. Just as the GAP Fact was also understood back then. Need I remind you again?

Without Form and Void - Chapter 1

We are the Johnny Come Lately's when it comes to understanding many things that had been long understood by Jews who were also born again....

 

[Job 33:6]

@genez

The location of tiktaalik was actually predicted before it was even discovered.

The scientists who found it basically said "ok if evolution is true, this animal should be found in shallow marine rock of the middle to late devonian".

This is because fish dominate the early devonian and late silurian. While land based animals dominate the carboniferous and appeared in...well, the mid to late devonian.

Where is that rock? its in a remote place in canada. Ok, so they got on a helicopter and flew up to nowheresville canada, dug down 10+ feet to reach shallow marine rock, and low and behold, there was tiktaalik. Later they uncovered numerous specimen of the same species and there is a whole collection of tiktaaliks now.

No T rex, no mastodons or trilobites. No mammals or reptiles, non birds...Just tetrapods. Right where the theory predicted they would be. Part fish, part tetrapod, between temporal locations in which sea life became land life.

A prediction made by the theory.