Is evolution a fact or theory?

NobleMouse · May 16, 2018

@Bible Research Tools

Greetings and welcome to CF! I've been following these threads within Creationism and Theistic Evolution for some time and have enjoyed the material and references you've presented in support of a biblical creation worldview.

I'm not at all surprised when secular scientific theories hold so firmly to ideas of billions of years and evolution where naturalistic ideas and conclusions reign over the idea that a supreme being created everything. For those who reject God and reject the Gospel message of salvation, there is great motivation for holding to such ideas because it allows for a version of history that excludes a creator, it excludes the only one and true God.

Where I continue to be surprised here is when we have fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who reject the creation account at every turn where evidence pops up in support of the creation events recorded in the book of Genesis... one would think that there would be tremendous excitement when clarity into God's truth is revealed through general revelation, but alas years of study at the university seems to have permanently established a different worldview as far as our origin goes.

Is evolution a fact or theory? From my worldview where the Bible is true and that God did not use Genesis as an encrypted message to convey the opposite of what it says, I say evolution is both - it is a false fact and an unsupported theory. Coincidentally, the fossil record does not support evolution:

https://evolutionnews.org/2015/01/problem_5_abrup/

What is amazing is that many here would adamantly argue just the opposite (I know who you are : ). A number of secular scientists have already openly admitted that the fossil record shows that life abruptly appears and everyone here in this forum is familiar with the hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium in a weak attempt to account for such... so for many years now it's been argued by creationist scientists that the fossil record does not support gradual evolution and it's also been conceded by their secular colleagues... so continuing to insist it does, especially here in this forum, is just beating a dead horse. Please, stop belaboring the nonsense.

You've already brought up great resources from the likes of Dr. Kurt Wise and others so I don't need to include dozens of links you've likely already come across yourself.

You've also brought up the idea that there has been an intent to hide evidence that goes against the conventional evolutionary theory. I've not delved into that too much, but I would agree it is certainly possible... and for me to believe that collusion and deception only exists in politics would be naive - it exists everywhere people exist and the secular scientific community (of whom about 2/3 do not even believe in the God of the Christian Bible) is certainly not above this kind of thing happening. Oh look, here's an example of this very thing (so, does deception happen within the scientific community? Yes, yes it does):

Whale evolution fraud - creation.com

A word of caution though - I've been debating with theistic evolution proponents here in the forum for a while and it has been my experience that there is no amount of evidence I could present from the Bible, from scientific study, nor from logic and reason, etc... that can convince our TE brothers and sisters that the word of God is true beyond just the gospel accounts and the message of salvation, but also that creation as written in Genesis is also true.

The reason for this, I believe, is that everybody here agrees it is perfectly acceptable to believe God is all-powerful and can do anything (as His word tells us so) and so when we have a theory (such as evolution), and the evidence does not support the theory very well (which it does not), then we just simply have to fill in the "logic holes" with the notion that God accomplished it to His will, somehow. In fairness, there are many details of creation that biblical creationists do not have the answers for either, so it becomes a matter of who we are going to trust: God's word, or man's word. Even if we're talking about neo-Darwinistic theory, random mutation, genetic drift, natural selection, etc... this does not demonstrate the ability to develop the mechanisms for radically different life forms... instead empirical evidence only supports variations within created kinds - which we'd expect if we believe God's word is true on the matter of how life came to be as we see it today.

I say this only so that you do not become discouraged or frustrated with time. The perspective that God created life over billions of years and by way of the process of evolution is not a rejection of the gospel message, nor a rejection of Christ as one's savior - I see it is a reinterpretation of the Genesis account to reconcile with what is currently believed to be true by conventional secular science. This view is held by those who sincerely love the Lord, as much as any biblical creationist.

That said, keep standing firm on the word of God and God bless you for your faith and trust in His word!

GenemZ · May 16, 2018

....

Bible Research Tools said:
"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." -- Rev 12:5-10 KJV
Anyway, that is my theory.

Satan has yet to be kicked out of Heaven. In Job Satan presented himself with the angels before the Lord. And, now he is allowed access to heaven to accuse believers before the Lord day and night.

That is the way I see it, with one addition. The supernatural angels and offspring also corrupted the gene pool of the animal kingdom via hybridization, creating the bizarre dinosaurs, and other strange land and marine creatures. I believe only the uncorrupted animal kinds -- the ones God created -- were allowed on the Ark, which is why there are so many extinct species in the fossil record.

Again.... man was living in a small part of the earth's surface at that time. Mankind was yet in its infancy.. If you look through the genealogies in Genesis 5, you will read that the offspring of men being born was between fifty to over eighty years apart. That was no population explosion going on!

Mankind in its beginning years was not some rapid and vast population explosion.. Low numbers, and living only in a small area.

So? Why should God destroy the entire globe (when the flood was designed to primarily destroy man) when men were living in an area probably about the size of Rhode Island?

Remember! men had to all live close enough to Noah to hear his preaching about judgment! They could not be living on the other side of the planet to do so! The flood was massive in height... But, just the same. It was local.

God was out to destroy life in the entire earth (where men lived). Not the entire planet.

We need to explore the word usage in the Bible to find intended meanings.
Look at Genesis 11:1-2.

Its says..

"Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words.
It came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the
land of Shinar and settled there."

"The whole earth spoke one language? Notice? "Whole earth."

Yet? That "whole earth was said to be situated on only one plain.

Word usage in the Bible is essential to be understood if we are to be workmen not ashamed. Its caused me great fear the Lord in a special way, because I have seen intent radically change by a simple correction or error of one word.

In Noah's day all the earth (where only man lived) was to be destroyed in a flood. It could have taken place on one plain if that was where man lived at that time.

Genesis 11 tells us (in their way of thinking) that the entire earth was situated on one plain in Shinar.

Understanding Biblical WORD USAGE.

We must be alert. Grace empowers it to be so.

I am no better off than anyone else outside of God's grace. Inside of God's grace we become better than ourselves!

JackRT · May 16, 2018

genez said:
Satan has yet to be kicked out of Heaven. In Job Satan presented himself with the angels before the Lord.

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but is an angel acting as God's prosecuting attorney. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:”7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

GenemZ · May 16, 2018

JackRT said:
God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil!

ok.... sure!

... but?

"And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old,
who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a
thousand years." Rev 20:2

JackRT · May 16, 2018

genez said:
ok.... sure!

... but?

"And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old,
who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a
thousand years." Rev 20:2

I stated that in Job "Satan" is not the Devil. But through the Jewish scriptures and into the Christian the concept of the Devil undergoes an evolution and ends up as a conflation of the serpent of Genesis, the Satan of Job, the Lucifer of Isaiah, some Zoroastrian beliefs and some lurid medieval fiction (Dante) to reach our modern understanding. It wasn't until the second century that the Genesis serpent was even identified as the Devil.

Bible Research Tools · May 16, 2018

KomatiiteBIF said:
I've worked at both museums, and with fossils stocked at various universities, and no...there isnt some secret stash of flamingo and platypus fossils fossils hahaha, this is just nuts.

You misread my post. Read it again:

"Fossils of all major modern plant and animal groups are found with the dinosaur fossils (museums "hide" them in their basements), including flamingos, sandpipers, penguins, cormorants, parrots, owls, boa constrictors, box turtles, frogs, salamanders, opossum, and the duckbilled platypus, among others."

Dr. Carl Werner, who was the Executive Producer of the documentary "Evolution The Grand Experiment", found many fossils of modern animal groups in museum basements. His research on that topic is discussed at the 8:59 mark in this video:

You seem to be another conspiracy theorist, suggesting that scientists and those of us who work at museums are all colluding and hiding flamingo fossils from the world. hahaha

Nice to meet you, too! But, now that you mentioned it, there is little doubt that evolutionism is a gigantic conspiracy against the God of the bible, western civilization, the souls of our children, and nature itself. It would be nice if there was any evidence to prove such a wild-eyed hypothesis; but after 150+ years of Darwinism, there is none -- no evidence!

I actually noticed this just recently, that the ark museum in kentucky has dinosaurs on the ark. And yet, no dinosaurs live today. Ken ham has it all wrong. As a matter of fact, no dinosaurs live today, unless you count birds, and no living day species have ever been identified in the fossil record.

No offense, but that is poorly though out. Are you sure you are up to this?

Of the millions of extinct animals found in the fossil record, not a single one lives today. And of the millions of animals that live today, not a single one is found in the fossil record. The closest thing anyone has found are things like extinct genera of ceolacanths, but even these are morphologically unique and independent from their currently living counter part.

Baloney.

Dan

Bible Research Tools · May 16, 2018

genez said:
That is not very well thought out. Name one creature that controls he can breed with. God determines how things are to go. Not angels not playing by the rules.

How do you know? It is easy to believe those angels did some pretty horrific things from the letters of Peter and Jude:

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;" -- 2Pet 2:4-5 KJV

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." -- Jude 1:6-7 KJV

That is an awful lot of circumstantial evidence that something way out of the ordinary took place.

Of course they did something wrong. Horrific? When Adam ate of the forbidden fruit? Was that very wrong? Or, horrific? Stop pushing buttons, please. Relax. You do not have to work up the audience. If its true it should stand on its own * for those who have ears to hear.*

Do you want to discuss this, or do you want everyone to bow down and admit that you know the mind of God better than they?

NOTE! God was out to destroy man! The animals were necessary collateral damage.

Certainly you have a biblical reference for that dogmatic assertion, do you not?

Men were not a flesh eater back then. These giants began eating the flesh of the animals. It was unheard of at that time. Man back then ate from the fruit and vegetables. It would have been a sin to eat the flesh of another creature at that time. Only after Noah and his family left the Ark did God ordain for the first time the eating of animal flesh! It was foreign thinking to man and a great evil to eat the flesh of animals when the Nephilim were doing so.

Why did God not simply destroy the giants, if man was so squeaky clean of sin? Why was Noah the only one who found grace in the eyes of the Lord?

How did the Nephilim know they could eat animal flesh, since no man did?

They were the sons of angels, not men. The scripture implies the angels corrupted the men and animals, and the intertestamental literature also points in that direction (sometimes dogmatically).

Easy! Angels lived in prehistoric times and saw dinosaurs that were flesh eaters and knew animal flesh was also for food.

That makes no sense. Animals were also plant eaters at that time:

"And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so." -- Gen 1:30 KJV

The only logical conclusion seems to be that the angels, and/or their offspring, created the dinosaurs via hybridization. The angels were/are light-years more intelligent and powerful than us, and they could do things we have never dreamed of (no offense).

Noah leaving the Ark was given a new command. "You now can eat the flesh of animals."

"Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." -- Gen 6:8 KJV

Why him, and no others? Could it be that the others were taught to eat flesh?

Dan

Bible Research Tools · May 16, 2018

NobleMouse said:
@Bible Research Tools
Greetings and welcome to CF! I've been following these threads within Creationism and Theistic Evolution for some time and have enjoyed the material and references you've presented in support of a biblical creation worldview.

It is my pleasure.

Is evolution a fact or theory? From my worldview where the Bible is true and that God did not use Genesis as an encrypted message to convey the opposite of what it says, I say evolution is both - it is a false fact and an unsupported theory. Coincidentally, the fossil record does not support evolution:

https://evolutionnews.org/2015/01/problem_5_abrup/

Casey is a great researcher. He is continuously dodging flak, so you know he is over the target.

A word of caution though - I've been debating with theistic evolution proponents here in the forum for a while and it has been my experience that there is no amount of evidence I could present from the Bible, from scientific study, nor from logic and reason, etc... that can convince our TE brothers and sisters that the word of God is true beyond just the gospel accounts and the message of salvation, but also that creation as written in Genesis is also true.

Then we must seek to convince them that it is all God's Word -- that it is all gospel:

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine." -- 2Tim 4:2 KJV

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." -- 1Pet 1:22-23 KJV

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;" -- 1John 1:1 KJV

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." -- John 6:63 KJV

Well, at least we should challenge them to tell us which parts of, say, 2nd Peter we should throw in the trash can. Perhaps this part?

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:" -- 2Pet 2:4-7 KJV

BTW, are you aware that there is an archaeological dig that seems to point to the biblical Sodom -- not the Dead Sea, but the well-watered plain of Jordan east of Bethel and Ai?

Biblical Archaeology - Bible Research Tools

Click on "The Search for Sodom".

I say this only so that you do not become discouraged or frustrated with time. The perspective that God created life over billions of years and by way of the process of evolution is not a rejection of the gospel message, nor a rejection of Christ as one's savior - I see it is a reinterpretation of the Genesis account to reconcile with what is currently believed to be true by conventional secular science. This view is held by those who sincerely love the Lord, as much as any biblical creationist.

That said, keep standing firm on the word of God and God bless you for your faith and trust in His word!

I will, and God bless.

Dan

Bible Research Tools · May 16, 2018

genez said:
....
Satan has yet to be kicked out of Heaven. In Job Satan presented himself with the angels before the Lord. And, now he is allowed access to heaven to accuse believers before the Lord day and night.

That is possible. But how do you interpret this?

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days . . . And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him . . . And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night . . . And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child." -- Rev 12:5-6,9,10,13 KJV

Do you not believe that is already happened? When did the man-child ascend to the throne? Was it here?

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;" -- Acts 1:9-10 KJV

After all, Jesus said he was sitting on the throne when he transmitted the Revelation to John via His angel:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." -- Rev 3:21 KJV

Again.... man was living in a small part of the earth's surface at that time. Mankind was yet in its infancy.. If you look through the genealogies in Genesis 5, you will read that the offspring of men being born was between fifty to over eighty years apart. That was no population explosion going on! Mankind in its beginning years was not some rapid and vast population explosion.. Low numbers, and living only in a small area.

I am not sure why that is relevant, or if it is even accurate. Adam lived a very long time, as did many of his descendants. Adam and Eve could have had a gazillion children, for all we know:

"And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:" -- Gen 5:4 KJV

So? Why should God destroy the entire globe (when the flood was designed to primarily destroy man) when men were living in an area probably about the size of Rhode Island?

All flesh was corrupted. The flood was sent to destroy all land-dwelling flesh.

How do you know "men were living in an area probably about the size of Rhode Island"?

Remember! men had to all live close enough to Noah to hear his preaching about judgment! They could not be living on the other side of the planet to do so!

Where does it say Noah preached to all men?

The flood was massive in height... But, just the same. It was local.

God seems to think it covered the entire earth to a level above the mountain tops. But what does he know?

"And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth . . . And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered." -- Gen 7:19-20 KJV

God was out to destroy life in the entire earth (where men lived). Not the entire planet.

"And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died." -- Gen 7:21-22 KJV

Maybe God should have consulted you before writing his book.

We need to explore the word usage in the Bible to find intended meanings.
Look at Genesis 11:1-2. Its says..

"Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words.
It came about as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the
land of Shinar and settled there."

"The whole earth spoke one language? Notice? "Whole earth."

Yet? That "whole earth was said to be situated on only one plain.

I am not sure what your point is. That was after the flood, about the time the Lord divided the nations:

"When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel." -- Deu 32:8 KJV

"When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God." -- Deu 32:8 LXX

Israel was the Lord's allotment:

"For it is thus written, When The Most High divided the nations, when he dispersed the sons of Adam, he settled the boundaries of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. The portion of the Lord was his people Jacob. Israel was the measurement of his inheritance. And in another place he saith, Behold the Lord taketh to himself a nation from the midst of the nations, even as a man taketh the firstfruits of his threshingfloor; and there shall go forth from that nation the Holy of Holies." -- 1Clem 29:2-3

May I recommend you throw away your presuppositions about how things should have been 4000 years ago, and believe the Word?

Word usage in the Bible is essential to be understood if we are to be workmen not ashamed. Its caused me great fear the Lord in a special way, because I have seen intent radically change by a simple correction or error of one word.

Whose correction? Men have been pouring over the scripture for more than 3,000 years.

In Noah's day all the earth (where only man lived) was to be destroyed in a flood. It could have taken place on one plain if that was where man lived at that time. Genesis 11 tells us (in their way of thinking) that the entire earth was situated on one plain in Shinar.

The flood occurred hundreds of years before Shinar.

Understanding Biblical WORD USAGE. We must be alert. Grace empowers it to be so.

I am no better off than anyone else outside of God's grace. Inside of God's grace we become better than ourselves!

Oh, well . .

Dan

Job 33:6 · May 17, 2018

Bible Research Tools said:
You misread my post. Read it again:

"Fossils of all major modern plant and animal groups are found with the dinosaur fossils (museums "hide" them in their basements), including flamingos, sandpipers, penguins, cormorants, parrots, owls, boa constrictors, box turtles, frogs, salamanders, opossum, and the duckbilled platypus, among others."

Dr. Carl Werner, who was the Executive Producer of the documentary "Evolution The Grand Experiment", found many fossils of modern animal groups in museum basements. His research on that topic is discussed at the 8:59 mark in this video:

Nice to meet you, too! But, now that you mentioned it, there is little doubt that evolutionism is a gigantic conspiracy against the God of the bible, western civilization, the souls of our children, and nature itself. It would be nice if there was any evidence to prove such a wild-eyed hypothesis; but after 150+ years of Darwinism, there is none -- no evidence!

No offense, but that is poorly though out. Are you sure you are up to this?

Baloney.

Dan

It sounds like you're suggesting that I hide flamingo fossils in the the museum basement that I work at, or perhaps that I hid flamingo fossils in the basement of my University. Which of course is just rediculous.

Job 33:6 · May 17, 2018

Bible Research Tools said:
Nice to meet you, too! But, now that you mentioned it, there is little doubt that evolutionism is a gigantic conspiracy against the God of the bible, western civilization, the souls of our children, and nature itself.

Dan

I giant conspiracy, interesting. Do tell me more about the flamingo fossils that I've been hiding from the world...hahaha

Job 33:6 · May 17, 2018

Bible Research Tools said:
You misread my post. Read it again:

"Fossils of all major modern plant and animal groups are found with the dinosaur fossils (museums "hide" them in their basements), including flamingos, sandpipers, penguins, cormorants, parrots, owls, boa constrictors, box turtles, frogs, salamanders, opossum, and the duckbilled platypus, among others."

Dr. Carl Werner, who was the Executive Producer of the documentary "Evolution The Grand Experiment", found many fossils of modern animal groups in museum basements. His research on that topic is discussed at the 8:59 mark in this video:

Nice to meet you, too! But, now that you mentioned it, there is little doubt that evolutionism is a gigantic conspiracy against the God of the bible, western civilization, the souls of our children, and nature itself. It would be nice if there was any evidence to prove such a wild-eyed hypothesis; but after 150+ years of Darwinism, there is none -- no evidence!

No offense, but that is poorly though out. Are you sure you are up to this?

Baloney.

Dan

There are hundreds of species of dinosaurs (that we are aware of) with many more being discovered every day. T-rex, brontosaurs, ankylosaurs, brachiosaurs, all sorts of theropods, stegosaurs, duckbilled dinosaurs etc.

Yet, none survive today. Oddly enough they are on the ark in ken hams ark museum.

It just doesnt make any sense. No dinosaurs are present in recent geologic layers, nor are they present in pre mesozoic layers either. Paleozoic fossils are also not found in mesozoic or cenozoic layers either. And of course, cenozoic fossils are not found in paleozoic or mesozoic layers either, just as bunny rabbits are not found with dinosaurs.

This idea that we, the scientists, are hiding fossils of mesozoic flamingos that were found along side dinosaurs is just ridiculous. I've been on many ventures to uncover fossils, particularly those of paleozoic age, and never ever have i found any modern animals such as flamingos. I also have never found mesozoic fossils in paleozoic rock. I have never found paleozoic fossils in mesozoic or cenozoic rock either. Such things just dont exist.

The closest thing one could speak of are Darwins "living fossils" which Darwin described in the origin of species. But even these, are morphologically unique from their modern counterparts, and even these "living fossils" are few and far between in number. I could count "living fossil" examples on two hands, but there are thousands upon thousands of non "living fossil" organisms in the fossil succession.

To simplify things, all one has to do is go to their local zoo, look around, and ask yourself if you see any dinosaurs. Instead of pointing at some fish that looks kind of like an old fish, or some clam shell that looks kind of like some old clam shell...

all you have to do is go to the local zoo, and ask yourself if there are any brachiosaurs or T rex dinosaurs walking around. Of course there are no dinosaurs at local zoos, and just in the same way, there are no dinosaurs in recent layers of rock either. They just are not there, and this is the physical reality of the world we live in.

Bible Research Tools · May 17, 2018

JackRT said:
God didn't create Satan, man did.

Not a chance! LOL! Man is not near intelligent enough to create a creature like Satan [no doubt some some think they are].

Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil!

Clear? You must have a different Bible that I. This is what my bibles state. This first passage is translated from the Masoretic Hebrew:

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it." -- Job 1:6-7 KJV

And this is from the Greek:

"And it came to pass on a day, that behold, the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came with them. And the Lord said to the devil, Whence art thou come? And the devil answered the Lord, and said, I am come from compassing the earth, and walking up and down in the world." -- Job 1:6-7 LXX

The following passages tie the names together: the serpent in the garden from Genesis; and Satan and the devil of in the presence of the Lord from Job:

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." -- Rev 12:9 KJV

"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years," -- Rev 20:2 KJV

When the Lord divided the nations at Babel (hundreds of years after the flood), he assigned one of the sons of god/angels to rule over each of the nations:

"When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God." -- Deu 32:8 LXX

"When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God." -- Deu 32:8 ESV

[Note: the Masoretic Hebrew mistranslates that passage as "the sons of Israel", which didn't exist at that time. The ESV translation is based on the Dead Sea Scrolls which renders it the "sons of God", which is in line with the Greek]

So, the angels were also called the sons of God. Those sons of god were called the "divine council", as mentioned in the Psalms:

"God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: 'How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.' They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, 'You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince.'" -- Ps 82:1-7 ESV

As you can see, the Lord was none to happy with the gods he had chosen to rule over the nations since they mistreated the weak and fatherless. Some of the children of Israel also left the Lord and began to follow those "strange" gods, who taught them to mistreat the fatherless, widows and strangers. That became a great curse upon Israel:

"And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts . . . Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation." -- Mal 3:5, 8-9 KJV

The nation was brought into judgment about A.D. 70.

The commandment to tithe a portion to help the fatherless, widows and strangers came from Deuteronomy:

"When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled; Then thou shalt say before the Lord thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them." -- Deu 26:12-13 KJV

"Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen." -- Deu 27:19 KJV

So, Israel (much of it) was accursed:

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" -- Rom 9:3 KJV

The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but is an angel acting as God's prosecuting attorney. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:”7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.

You have been reading too many novels. Let us tie it all together:

The sons of God/angels were assigned to rule over the nations [the existence of many "gods" is mentioned many times in the Bible]. Apparently Satan was chosen to be their overall leader, or supervisor, because even as late as the days of Christ he controlled all the nations:

"And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for [the kingdoms of the nations has been] delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." -- Luk 4:5-8 KJV

But, after the resurrection, the Lord regained his rule over the nations:

"And Jesus came and spake unto [the disciples], saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" -- Mat 28:18-19 KJV

Zechariah foretold that to occur in the days the living waters would begin to flow out of Jerusalem:

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one." -- Zec 14:8-9 KJV

That is exactly what happened. John explained that "living waters" was a metaphor (if you will) for the pouring out of the Holy Spirit after Jesus was glorified:

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" -- John 7:37-39 KJV

Recall that before his ascension, Jesus told his disciples to wait in Jerusalem for the promise of the father:

"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." -- Acts 1:4-5 KJV

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven." -- Acts 2:1-5 KJV

Those devout Jews took the gospel and Holy Ghost back to their nations with them, so that the gospel could be preached to all nations, and to every creature. That was fulfilled before Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians:

"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:" -- Col 1:5-6 KJV

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" -- Col 1:23 KJV

And, of course, Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven; and Satan was later bound to prevent him from deceiving the nations again for a very long time:

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him . . . Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." -- Rev 12:9,12 KJV

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." -- Rev 20:1-3 KJV

There is much more to this story, but that is sufficient for now.

Dan

GenemZ · May 17, 2018

JackRT said:
I stated that in Job "Satan" is not the Devil. But through the Jewish scriptures and into the Christian the concept of the Devil undergoes an evolution and ends up as a conflation of the serpent of Genesis, the Satan of Job, the Lucifer of Isaiah, some Zoroastrian beliefs and some lurid medieval fiction (Dante) to reach our modern understanding. It wasn't until the second century that the Genesis serpent was even identified as the Devil.

Where did you get your information from?

GenemZ · May 17, 2018

KomatiiteBIF said:
Yet, none survive today. Oddly enough they are on the ark in ken hams ark museum.

And, Trump colluded with the Russians.

People are stupid in every walk of life. There will always be someone to believe a lie.

Only the Truth will make us free. Free from our natural areas of stupidity.

"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
But he who hates reproof is stupid." Prov 12:1

Finding truth is having the humility to accept reproof. God only gives grace to the humble. Humble does not mean being self effacing. It means bearing the pain that will come when truth above all else is one's desire. Yet? Stupid people find themselves believing the same thing about themselves.

In the end. God will judge impartially each one of us. Until then... those who are not genuinely humble will think they are.

yeshuaslavejeff · May 17, 2018

genez said:
Where did you get your information from?

(in passing), it looked completely like tradition, contrary to God's Word and Jesus.

yeshuaslavejeff · May 17, 2018

Bible Research Tools said:
Not a chance! LOL! Man is not near intelligent enough to create a creature like Satan

True sort of, but , well, remember also mankind (with demonic assistance/deception)
did create the illusion of 'right' / a false god to serve (many false gods too),
that billions never are freed from according to the Apocalypse "the whole world refuses to repent of serving demons"....

GenemZ · May 17, 2018

yeshuaslavejeff said:
(in passing), it looked completely like tradition, contrary to God's Word and Jesus.

Please.... stop!

Unless you can cite Scripture to make your case it becomes like you are saying things in your sleep. Makes anyone hearing you wonder what it is you are dreaming.

yeshuaslavejeff · May 17, 2018

genez said:
Please.... stop!

Unless you can cite Scripture to make your case it becomes like you are saying things in your sleep. Makes anyone hearing you wonder what it is you are dreaming.

Really? From your post you already know the source of information is not Scripture.
This is usually true on this forum.
Thus, the source is "tradition" or worse.

Just because you can see the post you asked about is tradition,
doesn't mean you have to reply with Scripture - it is most likely Scripture won't be accepted. Simply warn others when a bridge is out, don't wait until you learn how to build a bridge and have time to.
i.e. warning about threats to people's health and faith and lives,
may be the required duty ...
oh, the Scripture is not forgotten nor neglected; simply speak when and as the Father says to - don't proffer Scripture when they are going to trample it,
nor when the Father does not say to..

Bible Research Tools · May 17, 2018

KomatiiteBIF said:
It sounds like you're suggesting that I hide flamingo fossils in the the museum basement that I work at, or perhaps that I hid flamingo fossils in the basement of my University. Which of course is just rediculous.

There is little doubt that the field of evolutionism, including supportive propaganda displays, such as those in museums and textbooks, is riddled with fraud and deception. Are you denying that?

Dan

Is evolution a fact or theory?

We have nothing, if not belief in the Lord

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