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Is evolution a fact or theory?

GenemZ

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No, that's wrong. You're confusing "hypothesis" (idea that has not been confirmed by evidence) and "theory" (idea that has been confirmed by evidence)

Then the belief that this current creation evolved from the lifeforms we find in the fossil evidence turns out to be the hypothesis of evolution. Presumption cause them to jump to conclude its a theory. We have no prehistoric creatures evolving to current form to observe today. Its all a presumptuous hypothesis.

Its HOE.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Is there are proof of either?
Sure, but the world loves the world, not the truth.
The truth never once in history changed.

The theory keeps changing ever since it was invented. Since it is false, it keeps needing to be changed, as it is constantly changing, to 'pretend' more, but can never be proven true.

The truth cannot be proven false - only lied about with theories claiming false things.
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian explains:
No, that's wrong. You're confusing "hypothesis" (idea that has not been confirmed by evidence) and "theory" (idea that has been confirmed by evidence)

Then the belief that this current creation evolved from the lifeforms we find in the fossil evidence turns out to be the hypothesis of evolution.

Nope. None of that is in Darwin's points or modified by the Modern Synthesis. You've been misled about what the theory says.
 
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The Barbarian

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The theory keeps changing ever since it was invented.

It probably seems like cheating to creationists, that scientific theories are modified as evidence shows a need to do so. They're locked into their beliefs and must try to change the facts to fit those beliefs.
However, neither Darwin's points nor anything in the Modern Synthesis has been overturned.

The false doctrine of YE creationism remains at odds with God's creation.
 
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GenemZ

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Barbarian explains:
No, that's wrong. You're confusing "hypothesis" (idea that has not been confirmed by evidence) and "theory" (idea that has been confirmed by evidence)



Nope. None of that is in Darwin's points or modified by the Modern Synthesis. You've been misled about what the theory says.
Wow we read different articles.....
 
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The Barbarian

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Wow we read different articles.....

Perhaps you should learn the vocabulary first. If you don't know the difference between "hypothesis" and "theory", you'll be continuously misled.

And if you want to know biology, you'll need more than articles and labs. You'll need to get out there and look around.

There's another benefit to that. Every now and then, I'll be up in the hills, or down in the Trinity backwaters, and suddenly I'll apprehend His creation in a way that you can't get out of a book or in a sermon.

He made this world for us, and it's far more wonderful and beautiful than creationists understand.
 
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GenemZ

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Perhaps you should learn the vocabulary first. If you don't know the difference between "hypothesis" and "theory", you'll be continuously misled.

So you are telling us? That it can be verified that the present creation had evolved from the prehistoric creation(s) ..... because its been observed to be verified. hmmmmmmmm..... How old are you?
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
Perhaps you should learn the vocabulary first. If you don't know the difference between "hypothesis" and "theory", you'll be continuously misled.

So you are telling us?

I'm telling you that if you don't know the difference between "hypothesis" and "theory", you'll be continuously misled.

hmmmmmmmm..... How old are you?

My warranty ran out last year. How old are you?
 
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GenemZ

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Barbarian observes:
Perhaps you should learn the vocabulary first. If you don't know the difference between "hypothesis" and "theory", you'll be continuously misled.



I'm telling you that if you don't know the difference between "hypothesis" and "theory", you'll be continuously misled.

I am only using your own definition.
Here it is again.

No, that's wrong. You're confusing "hypothesis" (idea that has not been confirmed by evidence) and "theory" (idea that has been confirmed by evidence)

A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can be repeatedly tested, in accordance with the scientific method, using a predefined protocol of observation and experiment. Established scientific theories have withstood rigorous scrutiny and embody scientific knowledge.
Scientific theory - Wikipedia

" "theory" (idea that has been confirmed by evidence)"

Where is the evidence that what we see now evolved from what went extinct? Anyone see it happen? NO! The evidence show there were sudden cessations. and then a sudden appearing of new lifeforms.

Hence? As the Bible reveals with astute study... God destroyed previous creations on this earth.... and began new classrooms for his angels to advance in knowledge with.

Barbarian is lost in his inability to grasp things that require grace to understand. (now, that's just my theory) ... the evidence is there.
 
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The Barbarian

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I am only using your own definition.

Nope. You're just ignoring all the evidence.

A scientific theory is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can be repeatedly tested, in accordance with the scientific method, using a predefined protocol of observation and experiment. Established scientific theories have withstood rigorous scrutiny and embody scientific knowledge.


Where is the evidence that what we see now evolved from what went extinct?

The first great advance wasn't even done by a scientist who knew about evolution. It was Linnaeus, who first showed that all living things fit nicely into a family tree. Such nested hierarchies only occur in nature where there is common descent. Linnaeus was puzzled when non-living things, such as minerals, wouldn't fit into such a family tree.

The next great advance was Darwin's observation that variation and natural selection account for the directional path of evolution. Fitness tends to increase in a population.

1. More are born than can live. (directly observed)
2. Every organism is slightly different from all the others. (directly observed)
3. Some of these differences affect the likelihood of living long enough to reproduce (directly observed)
4. Favorable differences tend to persist and spread in the population. (directly observed)
5. Changes accumulate, often resulting in new species (directly observed)

Darwin then explained the fuzzy nature of species as being caused by this process, and predicted that there must have been transitional forms between higher taxa as the process produced increasingly different organisms, such as tetrapods from fish, birds and mammals from reptiles and so on.

There wasn't much evidence for his in Darwin's lifetime; when Huxley used anatomical data to predict that birds evolved from dinosaurs, there wasn't any evidence for it. In the years since, the predicted transitionals have become extremely numerous, to the point that there are few gaps left between major groups. These transitional forms were admitted by creationist Kurt Wise to be "strong evidence" for macroevolution.

Even more convincing, we never see a transitional form where evolutionary theory says there shouldn't be one. No mammals with feathers. No insects with bones.

The rediscovery of Mendel's work led to predictions that gene would be sorted out in a family tree similar to that of Linnaeus. And over time, DNA and genetic data have confirmed that prediction. Genes produce the same family tree as Linnaeus prepared, to a high degree of precision. And we know it works, because we can check it with organisms of known descent.

A similar result can be shown from conserved organic molecules. Recently, a small amount of heme was found in the fossil of a T-rex. When checked, it was more closely similar to that of birds than of other reptiles, which is exactly what evolutionary theory predicted.

Evolution goes on every day.

Anyone see it happen?

Yep. Documented constantly. Even macroevolution; there's a good number of speciation events in the literature. Even the observed evolution of new enzyme systems and digestive organs.

NO! The evidence show there were sudden cessations. and then a sudden appearing of new lifeforms.

Let's test your belief. Name any two major groups, said to be evolutionarily connected, and I'll see if there's a transitional. If you want, name more than one case. Let's see how that works out.

Barbarian is lost in his inability to grasp things that require grace to understand.

Rather, I lack your presuppositions, necessary for one to believe your unscriptural ideas.
 
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GenemZ

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Nope. You're just ignoring all the evidence.


You are not only ignoring the evidence. You ignore your own inconsistencies in defending what you cherish the most.

EVIDENCE A. A LONG-HELD VIEW (existing long before Darwin was born)....


Take note. This understanding was not invented "after the fact." Rather, it was God's preemptive strike.

But, only for those who would be willing to be serious about their Bible study. Its not for the devotional, emotional types. Not for the ritual conformists. Its for the "love of Truth" types.

You? You simply ignore. Then continue on with your line of reasoning like nothing was said. Its rude to do. Ignoring. Then , accusing the other of doing the same as your means to wiggle out. But, what you ignore is showing you why what you keep pushing is invalid. But? You ignore. You keep away and just comment on what you imagine it to be.

Denial is a quick and easy defense when contradicted. But, its no defense at all.
 
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GenemZ

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Yep. Documented constantly. Even macroevolution; there's a good number of speciation events in the literature. Even the observed evolution of new enzyme systems and digestive organs.


Who has the time machine? Someone actually videoed prehistoric creatures (that are extinct) flipping into a macro evolution causing the changes to get us to where we are today? :doh::scratch::angel:

No scientist has seen that happening. Your "hypothesis" (not theory) is based upon biased faith. In doing so... agree to call it a theory because of an intrinsic self confidence that drives the idea.

Again ... you (make yourself appear to) miss my point? Then.. answer with dogmatic confidence? What you want to appear to have failed to grasp in what I said?... Or, was it, chose to ignore?

Possibly not ignoring. Only find it necessary... In hopes of not drawing too much attention to what I said. Which would happen if you attempted to address and genuinely refute what I said. Which you know you can't do.

Then others could chime in, and you would not longer have your isolation booth to pontificate from. For when you ignore a real point others do not bother to take notice when they believe nothing was said.

Now if this was an open debate where listeners with ears could hear what was going on? You would need a change of tactics. For they would see you keep missing the points being made...
 
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The Barbarian

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(Barbarian posts some of the voluminous evidence for evolution)

Who has the time machine?

Sorry, the argument that we can't know about anything we didn't personally witness, is a loser for lots of reasons.

Someone actually videoed prehistoric creatures (that are extinct) flipping into a macro evolution

See above. Plus remember what you learned; organisms don't evolve, populations do.

No scientist has seen that happening.

See above. That excuse won't work. We have many, many ways of finding out about things we didn't actually see happen.

Your "hypothesis" (not theory) is based upon biased faith.

As you learned, it's based on abundant evidence. I mentioned some of it for you:

  • Nested hierarcy of taxa
  • Observed evolution, including speciation
  • Genetics
  • The discovery of predicted transitional organisms for almost all major groups, but never any transitionals where the theory says there shouldn't be any
  • Conserved organic molecules

As you also learned at least one professional creationist has admitted that this is "strong evidence" for evolution.

There's really no point in denial. Your argument is based on the absurd notion that we can't know about anything we didn't directly observe.
 
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The Barbarian

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You are not only ignoring the evidence. You ignore your own inconsistencies in defending what you cherish the most.

EVIDENCE A. A LONG-HELD VIEW (existing long before Darwin was born)....


From your link:
The usual view is that when geologists "proved" the earth to be billions of year sold (sic) conservative biblical students suddenly discovered a way of salvaging the Mosaic account by introducing a gap of unknown duration between these two verses. This is supposed to have solved the problem of time by an expeditious interpretation previously unrecognized. This convenient little device was attributed by many to Chalmers of the middle of the last century, and popularized among "fundamentalists" by Scofield in the first quarter of the present century. Both the impetus which brought it to general notice and the company it kept in its heyday combined to make it doubly suspected among conservative scholars and totally ignored by liberal ones.

I don't see how that helps you in your new doctrine.


You? You simply ignore.

I know you want to believe this, in spite of the lack of scriptural support for it. But it really has no bearing on the evidence for evolution. As you now realize, even biochemically, dinosaurs are most closely aligned with birds, not other reptiles. Exactly as evolutionary theory predicted. Such verified predictions are "strong evidence" that the theory is correct.

Yes, you are ignoring the evidence. And you are denying all of. Denial is a quick and easy defense when contradicted. But, its no defense at all.
 
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GenemZ

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From your link:
The usual view is that when geologists "proved" the earth to be billions of year sold (sic) conservative biblical students suddenly discovered a way of salvaging the Mosaic account by introducing a gap of unknown duration between these two verses. This is supposed to have solved the problem of time by an expeditious interpretation previously unrecognized. This convenient little device was attributed by many to Chalmers of the middle of the last century, and popularized among "fundamentalists" by Scofield in the first quarter of the present century. Both the impetus which brought it to general notice and the company it kept in its heyday combined to make it doubly suspected among conservative scholars and totally ignored by liberal ones.

I don't see how that helps you in your new doctrine.



You stopped right there..... I guess you did not notice the other two sentences? That was the entire work you just quoted, minus two sentences?

You're funny. But, you are also determined to waste my time. Your goal is only to obfuscate and confuse the facts, so that those who wish to cling to your "hypothesis/theory" will have a sense of being correct. For they would never explore what was written in that book I linked to. They will think what you snipped out would be all there is to know.


And, God keeps moving with His plan, with, or without you.
 
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The Barbarian

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I'm just showing you the evidence. As you now see, there's a great deal of it supporting evolutionary theory.

The source to which you linked seems to be aware of the weaknesses in trying to rework Genesis into a "multiple creation" story.
 
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GenemZ

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I'm just showing you the evidence. As you now see, there's a great deal of it supporting evolutionary theory.

The source to which you linked seems to be aware of the weaknesses in trying to rework Genesis into a "multiple creation" story.

I see your evidence. I believe that I understand why you need to see it as being the answer.

In the mean time, I know too many other things to be able to accept it as you have.

If I only had a religious concept of God? I would follow your line of reasoning.
 
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GenemZ

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The source to which you linked seems to be aware of the weaknesses in trying to rework Genesis into a "multiple creation" story.

Sir! You are missing a big part of the picture! This "reworking" you speak of? Was not found after the theory/hypothesis of evolution challenged lackadaisical mainstream Christianity. This "reworking" was noted and documented many centuries before the theory/hypothesis of evolution was ever conceived. They had no axe to grind with secular thinking.

Why did all those Bible scholars see it? Because.... its there. They did not even know what to do with it other than to note its what the original languages speak of.

I do not know if you have enough background to understand the following... But, it is stating that what is called the Gap Theory, was not some Johnny Come Lately that Bible scholars devised after Darwin's work began to circulate.

Here we go.


As his translation into Aramaic of Gen.1.2, Onkelos has the following:

164x14xpage15.1.jpg.pagespeed.ic.-KEMvaiw0h.jpg
w’aretsah hawath tsadh’ya.

In this passage, the verb
35x14xpg15.2.jpg.pagespeed.ic.4o_lbmjcBu.jpg
is compounded with the Aramaic

verb
35x14xpg15.2.jpg.pagespeed.ic.4o_lbmjcBu.jpg
which appears here as a passive participle of a verb

which itself means "to cut" or "to lay waste". We have here,

therefore, a rendering "and the earth was laid waste", an interpret-


ation of the original Hebrew of Gen. 1.2
which leaves little room for

doubt that Onkelos understood this to mean that something had occurr-

ed between verse 1 and verse 2 to reduce the earth to this desolated

condition, It reflects Ginsberg's Jewish legend.

Akiba ben Joseph was an influential Jewish rabbi who was president

of the School Bene Barek near Saffa. He laid the basis for the

Mishna. When Barcochebas rebelled against the Romans, Akiba

joined him and was captured. He was executed in 135 A.D. The

ancient work known as The Book of Light or Sefer Hazzohar, some-

times simply Zohar was traditionally ascribed to one of Akiba's

disciples, a certain Simeon ben Jochai. In this work, which thus

represents an opinion held towards the end of the first century and


the early part of the second,
there is a comment on Gen. 2.4-6 which,

though difficult to follow, reads thus:

"These are the generations (ie., this is the history of....)

of heaven and earth.... Now wherever there is written the

word 'these' (
39x20xpg15.4.jpg.pagespeed.ic.I5X3eCDgpM.jpg
) the previous words are put aside.

And these are the generations of the destruction which is


signified in verse 2 of chapter 1. The earth was Tohu and



Bohu. These indeed are the worlds of which it is said that


the blessed God created them and destroyed them, and, on

that account, the earth was desolate and empty."



The "desolate and empty" phrase was gingerly translated and written as simply "without form and void" in the King James version. To those who understand the impact of the Hebrew in that text its seen as a gutless rendering of the Hebrew. Its caused problems like we see today.
 
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The Barbarian

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I see your evidence. I believe that I understand why you need to see it as being the answer.

It's merely showing us how God produces the variety of life we see. It's not "the answer." Just a detail of His creation. It has no impact on your salvation at all. You could deny everything, and unless you claimed that accepting evolution harms one's salvation, it wouldn't put your salvation at risk at all, or in any way mean you are less than a Christian.

In the mean time, I know too many other things to be able to accept it as you have.

I realize your new beliefs are keeping you from fully accepting His creation. As I said, it doesn't really matter, unless you try to separate yourself from Christians who do accept it.

If I only had a religious concept of God?

You've got the religion part down very well. It's the spirit of of God, the experiential aspect of Him in our lives that's missing for you in so many ways.
 
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GenemZ

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It's merely showing us how God produces the variety of life we see. It's not "the answer." Just a detail of His creation. It has no impact on your salvation at all. You could deny everything, and unless you claimed that accepting evolution harms one's salvation, it wouldn't put your salvation at risk at all, or in any way mean you are less than a Christian.

I realize your new beliefs are keeping you from fully accepting His creation. As I said, it doesn't really matter, unless you try to separate yourself from Christians who do accept it.

You've got the religion part down very well. It's the spirit of of God, the experiential aspect of Him in our lives that's missing for you in so many ways.

I see... You have heard it all before .....

Now its my turn to be on the receiving end.

It just does not work in my case. Because what you say does not apply.

It does not get you off the hook.

Have a nice Day.
 
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