Is evidence of aliens evidence for evolution or something else?

Matt5 · Feb 24, 2022

stevevw said:
I recently watched a special on TV called "Under Investigation" produced by 60 Minutes Australia. They had experts on the panel as well as eye witness military pilots testimony and data from surveillance devices across a range of equipment. This was evidence released by the US government recently admitting that there are what they now call "Unidentified Arial Objects". They admit they are solid objects that defy our current technology.

So that got me thinking if they are more advanced intelligent alien life where did they come from. Did they evolve or are they part of Gods creation. How would a creationist rationalize this into creation theory. How would a Christian rationalize this into redemption.

If aliens did evolve which I think would be fairly probable if evolution happened without any divine guidance then does this disprove creation theory. Or maybe these aliens are very smart but lack the image of God or that its part of Satan's ploy to fool the world before his coming.

I watched the whole thing too. Very interesting. Notice how the UFOs have a keen interest in military matters.

I'm leaning toward some kind of demonic presence. I know that toward the end there will be a significant demonic presence on Earth in human form. Although, they may not mate with women. Interestingly, Islamic prophecy talks about demons helping to spread Islam.

stevevw · Feb 24, 2022

Norbert L said:
Christian theologians and philosophers have been arguing that an omnipotent God is capable of creating multiple worlds that do not necessarily have a population in need of salvation since around the 12th century. It's not a brand new idea, we have the documentation that a real expert would be aware of.

Dr. Michael Heiser specializes in using what most people think as strange and bazaar in order to preach the gospel to a significant amount of people who are unlike most, attracted to some far out and even to the point of conspiracy ideas. Here's his webpage: Dr. Michael Heiser - Biblical Scholar | Author | Semitic Languages Expert and here's his YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/FringePop321

The way I see it many people will claim this is proof that we now know that God doesn't exist. Which is something that isn't new nor proof. I'll tell you what isn't new and it comes from a confession in that video just after the 32 minute mark. Scientists will make grand claims in order to receive grands of funding.

I get you. It could be that the military is making this up so they can get certain scientists funding so that they can improve their military technology.

Though I am a skeptic of governments I am not sure this would be the case. I think funding is already being put into space tech and they don't need some motive to create new tech as its something they want anyway and are willing to invest in. Even private investors are getting in on it now like Elon Musk.

I will check out the info and video later. Looks interesting. But I remember other preachers who infused alien ideas into preaching some form of religion like Scientology.

stevevw · Feb 24, 2022

miamited said:
Hi again @stevevw

Consider the causes and appearance of the phenomenon known as the aurora borealis. Science tells us:

The lights we see in the night sky are in actual fact caused by activity on the surface of the Sun. Solar storms on our star's surface give out huge clouds of electrically charged particles. ... The aurora's characteristic wavy patterns and 'curtains' of light are caused by the lines of force in the Earth's magnetic field.

They are quite obviously 'lights' in the sky as seen by our eyes, but their cause is something that we really don't have any deep knowledge of. It's possible that some of these sightings are of a similar nature. They don't happen all the time, but once in awhile the 'stars align', so to speak, and we see various and sundry apparitions in the atmosphere that find their cause in various changes in said atmosphere. According to the above explanation, the earth's magnetic field plays a role in what we see as the lights of the aurora borealis. Perhaps some similar effect of the earth's magnetic field also displays reflections of light that appear to us as UFO's.

Just a guess, of course, but certainly a possibility to also be examined as we look for the source of such sightings. Personally, I find that, IF these sightings are really visitations to our atmosphere of obviously much wiser beings than we are. Based on their technology to move about the universe, why wouldn't they make some attempt to communicate with us? That's the question that always befuddles me.

I mean, if we suppose that some of these sightings are actually alien beings from some other galaxy or planet of our own solar system (highly unlikely since I believe we can pretty well see any activity on the planets of our solar system) then we have to make some assumptions. First of all, since we do have more than one such unexplained sighting, they have apparently visited us more than once. Now, are they just visitors from one life structure on one other heavenly body? Or, are we being visited by visitors from many different life structures throughout the universe? Why would they come so near to us as to be visible within our atmosphere but make no attempt to contact us? I mean, surely if they are so much wiser than us to have already figured out the ability to move about in the universe with some high speed accuracy to re-visit one planet, then they must have some way of communicating that they would have at least tried, in order to communicate with us.

These are the issues that I see, that while some of the sightings cause me to go "Hmmmm", my mind surely thinks that there is more likely to be some natural explanation rather than some extraterrestrial one. We just haven't figured it out yet. Unlike the aurora borealis which occurs regularly and can, therefore, be studied at length as to their cause, these intermittent and very, very short unexplained sightings aren't around long enough for us to do any hard investigation as to their source.

God bless,
Ted

Yes I also think there are other possibilities to explore. But unlike " LIght" these objects are solid. The radars lock on them like they are something solid moving. But in thinking about what you said it brings up the fact that if even if they travelled at the speed of light it would still take a very long time, too long for human like beings to survive that journey.

So perhaps if they are real they would have to have some sort of tech that allowed for faster than the speed of light travel or an ability to being able to defy the laws of the classical laws of physics such as to do with quantum physics.

They may not have contacted us because they don't want to at this stage. They may know that they can never be captured even if detected and its interesting that most sightings are over military air space. So they may be wanting to understand our tech.

On the other hand if they are advanced in tech you would think they already know what our tech capabilities are so you would think they either realize we are no threat and make contact.

So if it is some other phenomena then its very strange. Maybe some nation has developed quantum travel of some sort. But what strikes me as unusual is that the objects are solid and move beyond our capability and that pilots have seen them from close up and described them.

Still you are right that we cannot discount unknown natural causes that we just don't understand just like people thought strange occurrances were from beyond this world in the past.

stevevw · Feb 24, 2022

Matt5 said:
I watched the whole thing too. Very interesting. Notice how the UFOs have a keen interest in military matters.

I'm leaning toward some kind of demonic presence. I know that toward the end there will be a significant demonic presence on Earth in human form. Although, they may not mate with women. Interestingly, Islamic prophecy talks about demons helping to spread Islam.

Yes this thought came to my mind as well. If satan were to appear to us and fool so many into following him then what better way then an adavanced alien being in a humanoid form. Otherwise people would always be suspicious of him if he was just another human trying to decieve us.

Everyone would be in awe of an alien leader who had power beyond humans. They would think he was a saviour in some ways who had the tech to save our planet and teach us about how to live in harmony. Its an interesting idea.

stevevw · Feb 24, 2022

miamited said:
HI @stevevw

I'm going to assume that you meant to write 'angels'. I believe that the Scriptures are quite clear that angels can enter our dimension. As to whether or not they provide any explanation for the various phenomenon under discussion in this thread, would once again be only a guess.

God bless,
Ted

Can angels be seen by humans

stevevw · Feb 24, 2022

miamited said:
Hi @stevevw

I agree, that there are a few such sightings that cause one to go "Hmmm". However, just because we aren't able to pin some 'natural' reasoning to any specific and individual sighting, isn't yet proof that they are of extraterrestrial origin.

God bless,
Ted

Yes I agree. Even if its a natural phenomena it is very interesting to find out what it is. It could be the key to some greater tech or understanding reality.

stevevw · Feb 24, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Yes, they could be like intelligent animals without a soul. Another possibility is that they could be like the humans who lived and died a thousand years ago in North America. They never heard the gospel, but God will find a way to deal with them in Justice and mercy.

Could be. The Bible does say that we are all created with the knowledge of God in us and that when we look at His creation we see God. Do you think that any life is possible in the universe such as more simple life.

stevevw · Feb 24, 2022

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
Well, your thread's question is based on the assumption that aliens are actually real We couldn't answer the question about Creation and evolution without assuming the existence of aliens.

We have to make a choice: either we trust what God himself said (in the Bible) - or we rely on other humans, called scientists, and what they think about reality.
If we trust the God of the Bible then we don't have to explain everything from a scientific point of view. God is very well able to do things that defy the laws of physics - and we can't tell God that he shouldn't do such things.

In addition to that there is an interesting passage in the Bible, Deut 13:1-3, which reads:
"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul."
I believe God tests our faith in different ways. May it be "unbiblical prophecy", may it be suffering, may it be unbiblical science.

This is very interesting. You are right in what you say and this hits at the heart of what I was thinking about what implications for belief if any alien intelligent life would have for evolution and Gods creation. But my intention was not to make assumptions about either way. I guess I wanted to see what people thought if there were really aliens.

I am not sure we have to make the choice as either what God said or what scientists say. I think they can be two seperate aspects and we can choose both. People use to think mental illness was possession and now we know about disorders of the brain (imbalances in brain chemicals, misfiring neurons ect). Though there could be an element of a spiritual problem as well such as certain ways of living can contribute to mental illness.

So its a bit of both. Evolution is a good example as for this as there are scientific ways of understanding such as biology and genetics. But that doesn't exclude the spiritual dimension of humans. Some may believe that evolution is true and this caused other life forms in the universe. But that doesn't mean GOd did not create life in the first place.

Maybe a Universe designed for life can produce various life forms but humans are the pinnacle of all lifeforms. The problem I see is that if we are to say that there are no other life forms in the universe then we would have to be concerned about every story that claims to finding signs of life which seems to be happening more now.

Thats why I think its a crucial question as if they do find any life even simple forms then that feeds into the evolution idea and makes possible that if there are simple forms then there could be intelligent forms as thats how evolution works given the right environment. In a limitless universe this would be a good possibility under evolution.

miamited · Feb 24, 2022

stevevw said:
Can angels be seen by humans

Hi @stevevw

I'm going to assume that was a question. According to the Scriptures, quite a few humans have seen angels. Beginning with Abraham. I believe he has the first recorded sighting when they visited him on the way to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. There is a reference earlier in Genesis that an angel (cherubim) guarded the way to the Tree of Life after Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, but there's no confirmation that they ever saw him.

Then we have an angel who visited Hagar as she was running away with her son from Abraham's wife Sarah, who mistreated her. A couple of times in Exodus the Scriptures reveal that God sent angels to protect Israel. Again it's not clear that the people saw them. We do know that Daniel saw and spoke to the angel Gabriel who claimed that he was sent from God to deliver the prophecy of the coming Messiah. Of course, Zechariah, Joseph and Mary all saw and spoke to angels. It was an angel, according to Paul, that helped him out of prison at one point. And finally, in the Revelation we read of several angels that were seen by John.

God bless,
Ted

miamited · Feb 24, 2022

stevevw said:
Yes I agree. Even if its a natural phenomena it is very interesting to find out what it is. It could be the key to some greater tech or understanding reality.

Hi @stevevw

While I certainly agree with the desire to know what such sightings might have actually been, because of their short duration, I doubt that there's any way that someone could categorically prove what they might have been. So, I wouldn't hold my breath.

God bless,
Ted

stevevw · Feb 25, 2022

miamited said:
Hi @stevevw

I'm going to assume that was a question. According to the Scriptures, quite a few humans have seen angels. Beginning with Abraham. I believe he has the first recorded sighting when they visited him on the way to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. There is a reference earlier in Genesis that an angel (cherubim) guarded the way to the Tree of Life after Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, but there's no confirmation that they ever saw him.

Then we have an angel who visited Hagar as she was running away with her son from Abraham's wife Sarah, who mistreated her. A couple of times in Exodus the Scriptures reveal that God sent angels to protect Israel. Again it's not clear that the people saw them. We do know that Daniel saw and spoke to the angel Gabriel who claimed that he was sent from God to deliver the prophecy of the coming Messiah. Of course, Zechariah, Joseph and Mary all saw and spoke to angels. It was an angel, according to Paul, that helped him out of prison at one point. And finally, in the Revelation we read of several angels that were seen by John.

God bless,
Ted

But do you think people can see angels today.

Friedrich Rubinstein · Feb 25, 2022

stevevw said:
This is very interesting. You are right in what you say and this hits at the heart of what I was thinking about what implications for belief if any alien intelligent life would have for evolution and Gods creation. But my intention was not to make assumptions about either way. I guess I wanted to see what people thought if there were really aliens.

I am not sure we have to make the choice as either what God said or what scientists say. I think they can be two seperate aspects and we can choose both. People use to think mental illness was possession and now we know about disorders of the brain (imbalances in brain chemicals, misfiring neurons ect). Though there could be an element of a spiritual problem as well such as certain ways of living can contribute to mental illness.

So its a bit of both. Evolution is a good example as for this as there are scientific ways of understanding such as biology and genetics. But that doesn't exclude the spiritual dimension of humans. Some may believe that evolution is true and this caused other life forms in the universe. But that doesn't mean GOd did not create life in the first place.

Maybe a Universe designed for life can produce various life forms but humans are the pinnacle of all lifeforms. The problem I see is that if we are to say that there are no other life forms in the universe then we would have to be concerned about every story that claims to finding signs of life which seems to be happening more now.

Thats why I think its a crucial question as if they do find any life even simple forms then that feeds into the evolution idea and makes possible that if there are simple forms then there could be intelligent forms as thats how evolution works given the right environment. In a limitless universe this would be a good possibility under evolution.

While aliens don't necessarily contradict the Bible (because the Bible is God's revelation to us humans about our purpose and God's plan for us - it could just not mention God's plan for other forms of life somewhere in the universe, though I don't think that's rational) the theory of evolution does contradict the Bible. Here you have to choose. Either God created man in his own image - as he says in his word - or he created cells who developed over millions of years into apes and finally humans. We're not made in God's image then, we're just an advanced clump of cells. The Bible makes a fundamental difference between animal and human, evolution turns humans into animals.

God says about evolutionists: "Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles." (Romans 1:22-23)

miamited · Feb 25, 2022

stevevw said:
But do you think people can see angels today.

Hi again @stevevw

I couldn't say. I personally haven't seen any that I know of, but Jesus did say that we should treat everyone with gentleness and kindness because we may be dealing with angels unaware to us. As far as it being possible to see angels, I believe that God still holds the ability to open the curtain between our realm and the angelic realm that we might see them, if it is for His purpose.

God bless,
Ted

Leaf473 · Feb 25, 2022

stevevw said:
Could be. The Bible does say that we are all created with the knowledge of God in us and that when we look at His creation we see God. Do you think that any life is possible in the universe such as more simple life.

Yes, I think so. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of any kind of life forms, simple or complex or intelligent, myself.

coffee4u · Feb 26, 2022

Aliens are demons.

stevevw · Mar 3, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Yes, I think so. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of any kind of life forms, simple or complex or intelligent, myself.

Therefore that supports evolution. It would also support that there may be many planets with various stages of evolution including some that have evolved intelligent life like ourselves.

There are around 300 million planets in our own backyard that are said to be earth like and could hold life like our own. But that doesn't discount the many planets that could have other kinds of life like we had when our planet was not habital for terrestrial life.

So one wonders if a planet can be produced that sustains life so often what is its use if not to host life. Simply because even simple life is the product inhospital worlds then other earth like planets will inevitably produce some form of intelligent life.

But if they are earth like they should produce something fairly similar to ourselves. If thats the case in a limitless universe with billions upon billions of galaxies the evolution of human type life should have happens many times.

stevevw · Mar 3, 2022

Friedrich Rubinstein said:
While aliens don't necessarily contradict the Bible (because the Bible is God's revelation to us humans about our purpose and God's plan for us - it could just not mention God's plan for other forms of life somewhere in the universe, though I don't think that's rational) the theory of evolution does contradict the Bible. Here you have to choose. Either God created man in his own image - as he says in his word - or he created cells who developed over millions of years into apes and finally humans. We're not made in God's image then, we're just an advanced clump of cells. The Bible makes a fundamental difference between animal and human, evolution turns humans into animals.

God says about evolutionists: "Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles." (Romans 1:22-23)

But I am not sure that being "created in Gods image" is about our physical bodies. It may be a spiritual state of being. I just can't picture God as like a human but more like a presence or light even. Jesus was God incarnate (became flesh) so it would mean Gods image is something beyond the physical forms we have. We may take on those physical forms even in the afterlife but that is not really Gods image.

I think intelligent aliens similar to us would contradict the Bible in that they would need salvation as well. Thats unless they are a form of animal that has no soul yet has intelligence. But if animals has such intelligence then they would still facts the issues we do with morality. Unless there is various forms of consciousness and human consciousness is at a higher level of self awareness and moralilty. Its interesting.

Leaf473 · Mar 4, 2022

stevevw said:
Therefore that supports evolution. It would also support that there may be many planets with various stages of evolution including some that have evolved intelligent life like ourselves.

There are around 300 million planets in our own backyard that are said to be earth like and could hold life like our own. But that doesn't discount the many planets that could have other kinds of life like we had when our planet was not habital for terrestrial life.

So one wonders if a planet can be produced that sustains life so often what is its use if not to host life. Simply because even simple life is the product inhospital worlds then other earth like planets will inevitably produce some form of intelligent life.

But if they are earth like they should produce something fairly similar to ourselves. If thats the case in a limitless universe with billions upon billions of galaxies the evolution of human type life should have happens many times.

It's possible intelligent life has been produced many times throughout the universe. Or it's also possible that the conditions to produce life are so exact that even with millions of possible planets it's only happened on one.

For me the key idea is that God breathed into Adam his breath, and that's what made Adam a human. Has God done that on other planets? Who knows?

Great thread topic. Peace be with you!

stevevw · Mar 4, 2022

Leaf473 said:
It's possible intelligent life has been produced many times throughout the universe. Or it's also possible that the conditions to produce life are so exact that even with millions of possible planets it's only happened on one.

For me the key idea is that God breathed into Adam his breath, and that's what made Adam a human. Has God done that on other planets? Who knows?

Great thread topic. Peace be with you!

Thankyou, yeah its intriguing. I am interested in what you mean by "breathed into Adam his breath". Is this literal breath or something else.

Leaf473 · Mar 4, 2022

stevevw said:
Thankyou, yeah its intriguing. I am interested in what you mean by "breathed into Adam his breath". Is this literal breath or something else.

I think it's probably something like soul or spirit. It's God's breath and God doesn't breathe in an atmosphere. So it's probably the thing that makes humans different from animals or something like that imo.

Is evidence of aliens evidence for evolution or something else?

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