• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Is Everything That Happens God’s Will?

Status
Not open for further replies.

justinstout

Teaching God's Goodness
Feb 20, 2005
1,372
57
Georgia, USA
✟1,843.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Although Job knew that the calamity that had befallen him was not due to sin in his life, he did not understand why God (the only possible source of his suffering based on his understanding of life) had afflicted him. Throughout the Book of Job, he continues to ask God, “Why me?” and often does so very angrily.

Does God answer Job’s questions? Not in Job’s lifetime, nor throughout the Old Testament Scriptures. Jesus Christ, however, taught truths that do answer Job’s questions. Kushner has some excellent insight on the record of Job:




To try to understand the book and its answer, let us take note of three statements which everyone in the book, and most of the readers, would like to be able to believe:



A. God is all-powerful and causes everything that happens in the world. Nothing happens without His willing it.

B. God is just and fair, and stands for people getting what they deserve, so that the good prosper and the wicked are punished.

C. Job is a good person.

As long as Job is healthy and wealthy, we can believe all three of those statements at the same time with no difficulty. When Job suffers, when he loses his possessions, his family and his health, we have a problem. We can no longer make sense of all three propositions together. We can now affirm any two only by denying the third.

If God is both just and powerful, then Job must be a sinner who deserves what is happening to him. If Job is good but God causes his suffering anyway, then God is not just. If Job deserved better and God did not send his suffering, then God is not all-powerful. We can see the argument of the Book of Job as an argument over which of the three statements we are prepared to sacrifice, so that we can keep on believing in the other two.

Job’s friends are prepared to stop believing in (C), the assertion that Job is a good person. They want to believe in God as they have been taught to. They want to believe that God is good and that God is in control of things. And the only way they can do that is to convince themselves that Job deserves what is happening to him.

Job, for his part, is unwilling to hold the world together theologically by admitting that he is a villain. He knows a lot of things intellectually, but he knows one thing more deeply. Job is absolutely sure that he is not a bad person. He may not be perfect, but he is not so much worse than others, by any intelligible moral standard, that he should deserve to lose his home, his children, his wealth and health while other people get to keep all those things. And he is not prepared to lie to save God’s reputation.

Job’s solution is to reject proposition (B), the affirmation of God’s goodness. Job is in fact a good man, but God is so powerful that He is not limited by considerations of fairness and justice.



Kushner correctly states that Job considered himself an innocent victim and that Job thought that God afflicts both the righteous and unrighteous. Often Job attested to his own innocence. He said, “I had not denied the words of the Holy One” (Job 6:10b); “Show me where I have been wrong” (Job 6:24); “I am blameless” (Job 9:21); “You [God] know that I am not guilty” (Job 10:7); “Can anyone bring charges against me? If so, I will be silent and die” (Job 13:19); “As surely as God lives, who has denied me justice” (Job 27:2); and “Let God weigh me in honest scales and He will know that I am blameless” (Job 31:6). Job made his case that God does whatever He pleases and afflicts both the innocent and the guilty: “...I say, He destroys both the blameless and the wicked” (Job 9:22).



Under this assumption, Job wished there were a mediator or an umpire that could help him out. “If only there were someone to arbitrate between us, to lay his hand upon us both” (Job 9:33). Of course, no umpire or mediator appears. What does appear is a storm, and God Himself speaking from it (Job 38:1). What did God say to Job in answer to his pleading questions? Well, one thing is clear— God did not give Job any reason for the problems besetting him.

Many theologians and Bible teachers rightly point out that God never gave Job an answer to the question of [why he was suffering]: “...God never answers question one about Job’s predicament...” “With all due respect to the many capable and godly preachers and writers who have taught that the major question as addressed in Job is why do the righteous suffer, we note that if this is the question, it is never answered in the Book of Job.”

Why not? Because the truth about the Devil as the source of human suffering was not revealed in the Old Testament. It was Jesus Christ who first openly revealed the true source of mankind’s suffering.

Interestingly enough, Rabbi Kushner comes to the same conclusion we do, that proposition (A) is the proposition that is in error — “God is all-powerful and causes everything that happens in the world. Nothing happens without His willing it.” We do not, however, agree with his overall understanding of the book of Job, by which he arrives at this conclusion. We arrive at our conclusion from the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament. Nonetheless, we applaud Kushner’s insight about people’s reaction to this conclusion. He states:




There may be a sense of loss at coming to this conclusion. In a way, it was comforting to believe in an all-wise, all-powerful God who guaranteed fair treatment and happy endings, who reassured us that everything happened for a reason, even as life was easier for us when we could believe that our parents were wise enough to know what to do and strong enough to make everything turn out right. But it was comforting the way the religion of Job’s friends was comforting: it worked only as long as we did not take the problems of innocent victims seriously. When we have met Job, when we have been Job, we cannot believe in that sort of God any longer without giving up our own right to feel angry, to feel that we have been treated badly by life.





The New Testament makes it crystal clear that not everything that happens is God’s will. For example, Jesus instructed his disciples to pray that God’s will would be done on earth (Matthew 6:10). If everything that happens is God’s will, such prayer is superfluous. In Romans 1:10, Paul said he prayed for “a prosperous journey in the will of God” to see the believers there. Another meaningless prayer? No. The will of God for an individual, whether revealed in the written Word of God or by direct revelation, generally comes to pass only when that person understands it and, by his own , acts accordingly.



Rather than sit passively by waiting for God’s will to happen, we must make a diligent effort to learn God’s Word and then aggressively obey it. God’s will, for example, is that people do not steal, but rather that they work to earn what they need (Ephesians 4:28). Very simple. We just do what He says. But are some people stealing? Yes. If everything that happens were God’s will, then nothing would be sin or disobedience. What a travesty of logic!

Going a step further then, if it is so easy for us humans to disobey God, what about the Devil and his spirit army? Can humans sin by choice while evil spirits cannot? Obviously spirit beings can sin, since sin was the reason the Devil and his hosts were thrown out of God’s presence to begin with. Via Adam’s sin, the Devil was legally given authority over the earth. The Devil did not and does not obey God. The Devil has been sinning for a long time (1 John 3:8). The Devil is a murderer (John 8:44), a liar (John 8:44), and a thief (John 10:10).
 

JimfromOhio

Life of Trials :)
Feb 7, 2004
27,738
3,738
Central Ohio
✟67,748.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
From the Book of Job, I can see that God is in complete control. Satan had neither the power nor the authority to do anything without the permission from God. It was consistent with God's nature and will for Him to have allowed those things to happen to Job. The Lord's point to Job, at the end of the book, that He is the all-powerful Creator. He is the loving Sustainer. And He is the perfect Ruler. He created the Universe, and He knows how to govern the world .

Regarding Satan's "bet" with God demonstrate the true character of Satan. His arrogance in the presence of Jehovah and his inability to "see" the future confirm that he is far removed from the divine nature. God sees the future of Job and Satan cannot. God is in Control and everything will go according to His plan AND GLORY.
 
Upvote 0

justinstout

Teaching God's Goodness
Feb 20, 2005
1,372
57
Georgia, USA
✟1,843.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
JimfromOhio said:
From the Book of Job, I can see that God is in complete control. Satan had neither the power nor the authority to do anything without the permission from God. It was consistent with God's nature and will for Him to have allowed those things to happen to Job. The Lord's point to Job, at the end of the book, that He is the all-powerful Creator. He is the loving Sustainer. And He is the perfect Ruler. He created the Universe, and He knows how to govern the world .

Regarding Satan's "bet" with God demonstrate the true character of Satan. His arrogance in the presence of Jehovah and his inability to "see" the future confirm that he is far removed from the divine nature. God sees the future of Job and Satan cannot. God is in Control and everything will go according to His plan AND GLORY.

bump!
 
Upvote 0

GenemZ

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2004
22,169
1,377
75
Atlanta
✟109,231.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
justinstout said:
Although Job knew that the calamity that had befallen him was not due to sin in his life, he did not understand why God (the only possible source of his suffering based on his understanding of life) had afflicted him. Throughout the Book of Job, he continues to ask God, “Why me?” and often does so very angrily.

Everything that happens is God's will to have it happen. But, not everything that happens is God's will. :priest:

In other words.... Its God's will that he does not override our volition. Its his will that our choices are just that. Our choices. Yet, not all of our choices are God's will for our lives. God created volition in man and angels...its his will that what happens in our lives, is his will for it to happen as it does. If men reject Jesus Christ? Its God's will to have men have their own will be done. Yet, its God's will that all men believe.

1 Timothy 2:3-5 niv
"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..."


God honors all our wills. If he did not, nobody would be in Hell. Its his will that allows those who choose to, to not do his will.

Its not really a contradiction in terms if you understand the terms God has created for the lives of all men. :)

What God did with Job was to test Job's will to see what it would reveal under testing. Since God does not manipulate our will, what came out revealed to the angels watching, that Satan was not justified in cursing God to his face.

Job 1:11 niv
"But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

And, again this was an issue with Satan!

Job 2:5 niv
"But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face."


Satan deserved to suffer for his original time of rebellion.

Hebrews 12:6 niv
"because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

God disciplines all that he has as a son. Angels were called "sons of God," long before believers were. God disciplined Satan when he rebelled, in hopes that Satan would repent. Satan refused and did the inexcusable. He cursed God to his face! Job was to prove Satan justified, by showing God even those who love him will curse Him if the circumstances are right. Satan was wrong, and proven wrong.

Job was innocent of ant serious wrong doing. If Job, who did not wrong. Refused to curse God for UNDESERVED SUFFERING? What excuse can Satan offer in his own defence, if he cursed God for suffering which was deserved?

Since you asked deep theological question, I figure I better take one step at a time here. This involves what some theological circles refer to as " the resolving of the prehistoric angelic conflict." God allows for evil because of this need to reveal why His justice is the way it is.

Grace and peace, GeneZ
 
Upvote 0

Sabertooth

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!
Site Supporter
Jul 25, 2005
10,796
7,250
63
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,153,479.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
D. God might choose to operate processes that are beneficial but don't make sense [to us, see Isa. 55:9] AND don't readily APPEAR beneficial. :scratch:

"You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." Gen. 50:20

"And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Rom. 8:28

"Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." Jas. 1:2-4

 
  • Like
Reactions: PapaLandShark
Upvote 0

justinstout

Teaching God's Goodness
Feb 20, 2005
1,372
57
Georgia, USA
✟1,843.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Dragons87 said:
I say yes because:

"And we are conscious that all things are working together for good to those who have love for God, and have been marked out by his purpose." Romans 8:28

The word "and" is a conjunction. Read the 2 or 3 verses before this one. There are several qualifications that must be considered before this verse can be applied to a person's life.
 
Upvote 0

justinstout

Teaching God's Goodness
Feb 20, 2005
1,372
57
Georgia, USA
✟1,843.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Claiming that everything that happens is God's will is holding God ultimately responsible for every wicked and evil thing that has ever taken place. Claiming that God's will automatically comes to pass is ultimately blaming God for every sin, perversion, sickness, disease, and calamity that has ever taken place.
 
Upvote 0

JimfromOhio

Life of Trials :)
Feb 7, 2004
27,738
3,738
Central Ohio
✟67,748.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Those who do not believe God is sovereign over Christian sufferings do not enjoy this comfort becauuse they are unwilling to accept the fact that God is working. They simply don’t understand how He is working. The thing we have to remember that God is God and He is able to control every detail around us. God is in control; He is sovereign. He does whatever pleases Him and determines whether we can do what we have planned. His absolute independence to do as He pleases and His absolute control over the actions of all His creatures. No creature, person, or empire can either thwart His will or act outside the bounds of His will. What I do know is that God will work out everything, both the good and the bad, in conformity with the purpose of His will (Eph.1:11), and will cause all things, both the good and the bad, to work together for the good of those who love Him (Rom.8:28). God’s sovereignty over people does not mean I will not experience pain and suffering. This means that God is in control of my pain and suffering, and that He has the reasons why my suffering is beneficial. There is no such thing as pain without divine purpose.
 
Upvote 0

Bill777

Active Member
Oct 30, 2005
350
24
60
✟23,131.00
Faith
Christian
Everything that happens in this world is God's will. God wills everything that happens in this world and outside this world.

Not one innocent child dies of famine in Africa without God's consent, not one single innocent individual is murdered without God's consent, not one millionaire becomes successful without God's consent, not one single soul is saved unless God wills it, not one single soul is condemned unless God wills it, etc. Like Luther said, not a single leaf falls off a tree without God's permission.
 
Upvote 0

GenemZ

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2004
22,169
1,377
75
Atlanta
✟109,231.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
justinstout said:
Claiming that everything that happens is God's will is holding God ultimately responsible for every wicked and evil thing that has ever taken place. Claiming that God's will automatically comes to pass is ultimately blaming God for every sin, perversion, sickness, disease, and calamity that has ever taken place.

Why is that?

If God has to allow the created creature to exercise his volition, because he created volition for man to have? By allowing man to do so? The results (because man and angels have volition) is God's fault? Its God's fault that his will allows you to make a choice? Because he must allow for choice, we find calamity, sin, and evil in the world.

Before God can promote anyone to Eternal power, God must first weed out those who would not be qualified for such abilities. So, its God's will to find out who is not to be qualified.

By allowing sin and evil, God reveals the hearts of men. Not all men choose evil. By allowing disease, calamity, etc.... God reveals hearts. He reveals the difference between those who do walk in grace and truth, and those who walk in stupidity (evil).

Its God's will that all these things happen. Its like a quality control tester putting a product through abuse to see if the quality is genuine. Its his will that he drops that laptop on the floor to see if it will still work. It is his will that bad things happen to this product to see if it has integrity in the way it was made. Its his will.

Now is not heaven. Now is the time of preparing and testing those destined for Heaven. Not everyone chooses for integrity. Many choose for what is a substitute and false. So, God tests by allowing bad things to happen. Those who walk in the Spirit will find happiness just the same. Those who do not, will only see the problems, not the solutions.

Deuteronomy 8:2 niv
"Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands."

Psalm 26:2 niv
"Test me, O LORD, and try me, examine my heart and my mind."


And, it was not just for the OT saints! God does not change!

1 Thessalonians 2:4 niv
"On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts."


If everything went perfectly? No calamity? No evil? No sin? We would be already in Heaven!

The testing now is to see who is qualified for Eternal rewards of power to be given to believers FOR ALL ETERNITY!

God is not going to have chaos in Heaven! Now is the time to weed out those who refuse to become one with the integrity needed for Eternal power.

Many in the church age follow after false doctrines which reveals that these believers failed the test for integrity God seeks after. They will be saved because they accepted Christ as Savior. But, they will not be allowed the priviledge and honor of sharing in power with God.

Now is the time of testing. If too much power is given to a weak believer that one can become another Lucifer! God is not going to allow for that ever again.

Testing reveals what one can be trusted with. We all have our limit. All, but one. Jesus can be fully trusted with absolute power of Deity in all its fullness. Only Jesus fully pleases God. We have been called to share in the life of Jesus. Not to replace him. The Eternal rewards will be one of sharing in different aspects of the essence of Christ. The rewards will be one of special intimate contact directly with the Lord. Spiritual coalescence.

Those who get to know him now as prescribed in God's will, will be those who get to know him more in Eternity. Many are saved, but few do God's will. That is why we have so many debates here, with many believers not able to agree. It reveals that not all desire to do God's will.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (New International Version)
"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

Our rewards will be that of being granted a special sharing in the life of God!

Matthew 25:23 niv
"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

To be faithful in a few things is to overcome (by God's grace) the testings that the calamities, sins, and evils of this world can offer. Overcome by walking in integrity of the Spirit in sound doctrine!

2 Timothy 4:3 (New International Version)
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

Paul already warned that believers will not desire sound doctrine. They will simply seek out teachers to tell them what they wish to desire truth to be. That is why we see such weird teachings in certain teachings that some refuse to give up. Things that go against the written word of God. These fail the test. But, they think they are right. Because they see themselves as having superior understanding. For what they choose to believe "feels right" with their way of thinking!

This forum is living proof that we are all given a fair shake in testing. For truth will be mixed in with the lies of others. Some choose one. Some choose the other. They will never say that they were not made aware of what they refused to believe in. God gives everyone the chance to repent at some point in their mistaken lives.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19 (New International Version)
"In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval."

So..... don't be dissapointed when unity can not be achieved in this forum. For a more important factor in God's plan is being manifested. The testing of men's hearts. Testing to see who has his approval. Not all believers will. But, they remain saved from Hell! They simply receive a loss of rewards. Not their salvation...

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 (New International Version)
"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

Grace and peace, GeneZ








 
Upvote 0

Bill777

Active Member
Oct 30, 2005
350
24
60
✟23,131.00
Faith
Christian
justinstout said:
Claiming that everything that happens is God's will is holding God ultimately responsible for every wicked and evil thing that has ever taken place. Claiming that God's will automatically comes to pass is ultimately blaming God for every sin, perversion, sickness, disease, and calamity that has ever taken place.

Who is to say that God lets wickedness unpunished? God permits wickedness but he is still a loving God. Let's say that it's God's will that an innocent woman be brutally raped and muredered by a gang. In the eyes of man a God that allows this to happen is a bad God. In the eyes of God though it is completely different. For Christ said blessed are those that don't have anything in this world and suffer, what if this woman is rewarded with heaven while her rapists face everlasting punishment. Then God's love and justice can be seen in everything, including the most wicked sins, sicknesses, calamities, etc. And it goes on and on. What if most of these children that die of starvation in Africa go to heaven while most of the kids in North America and Europe that have the material blessings of the world lose their souls. Some countries in Africa I hear have more percentage of believers than western countries, so they may not have the wealth of the earth but they do have the gospel of salvation. Which one is more important? So, can we say God is shortchanging Africa by allowing famine and poverty? Of course we can not say that because blessed are those that hunger and thirst says Jesus, and so there should be no wonder that many souls in Africa are being saved. Some countries in Africa have the highest conversion rates of believers in the world I read. I haven't been there, but it wouldn't surprise me if God's work in Africa is mighty. Although in the eyes of man Africa looks as if it was neglected by God because of the poverty, wars, and death, in the eyes of God Africa is most blessed. Oh how different is the wisdom of God from the wisdom of man.
 
Upvote 0

justinstout

Teaching God's Goodness
Feb 20, 2005
1,372
57
Georgia, USA
✟1,843.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Claiming that everything that happens is God's will is holding God ultimately responsible for every wicked and evil thing that has ever taken place. Claiming that God's will automatically comes to pass is ultimately blaming God for every sin, perversion, sickness, disease, and calamity that has ever taken place.

Why do you ask "Why is that?". It's very obvious to me. The sad thing is, many people sit here and say "Yes, of course God is responsible for all of it.. everything that happens is His will." That is completely wrong.

If God literally wills and controlls everything that happens, then He is responsible for all the junk that we see in the earth today. Does God will things into existence that are not His will? Of course not. That's a ridiculous concept.

Everything that's happening in the earth is clearly not God's will. God's will for us does not automatically come to pass just because it's His will. God does not force humans to walk in His will. If He did, then we are nothing but puppets or robots with absolutely no free will.
 
Upvote 0

justinstout

Teaching God's Goodness
Feb 20, 2005
1,372
57
Georgia, USA
✟1,843.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Bill777 said:
Who is to say that God lets wickedness unpunished? God permits wickedness but he is still a loving God. Let's say that it's God's will that an innocent woman be brutally raped and muredered by a gang. In the eyes of man a God that allows this to happen is a bad God. In the eyes of God though it is completely different. For Christ said blessed are those that don't have anything in this world and suffer, what if this woman is rewarded with heaven while her rapists face everlasting punishment. Then God's love and justice can be seen in everything, including the most wicked sins, sicknesses, calamities, etc.

This is not a New Testament concept. To say that it could be God's will for a woman to be brutally raped and murdered is blasphemous. I would not serve a god like that.. neither would the intelligent Christians that I know.
 
Upvote 0

JimfromOhio

Life of Trials :)
Feb 7, 2004
27,738
3,738
Central Ohio
✟67,748.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
From John MacArthur:

The providence of God

God ordains the attitudes and actions of men to bring about His own end. Even in government, God is in soverign control. Some may wonder why God does what He does in certain situations but you can still trust Him. If you do not understand what God is doing, attribute it to your ignorance and not His ineptitude! People are so anxious about the direction of the world, but God is in control. I never worry about politics, the economy, the world, because I trust in the God who is in control of the world. There are many passages in Scripture that show God is in control of the world.

(1) John 19:10-11--Pilate said to Jesus, "Speakest thou not unto me? Knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above." Pilate thought he was running the show but he wasn't--God was.

(2) Acts 2:22-23--The apostle Peter said, "Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know; him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." God is in complete control.

(3) John 7:30--The religious leaders sought to take Jesus, "but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come." God was timing things perfectly.

(4) Luke 22:53--Jesus said, "When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me; but this is your hour, and the power of darkness." The Jewish leaders had tried to catch Jesus but couldn't. He would pass through their midst, and now in effect says, "Now you may take Me." God ordained the entire event.

(5)Genesis 45:7-8--Joseph said to his brothers, "God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. So now it was not you that sent me here, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt". The brothers of Joseph sold him into slavery in Egypt where he later became a ruler. Who really put Joseph in Egypt? It was not his brothers, but God. Do you know what would have happened if Joseph had never gotten to Egypt? All his brothers might have died in the famine that came, and the Messianic line would have been obliterated. God preserved the Messianic line by sending Joseph in advance to Egypt to make sure that when the famine came, Joseph would have Egypt stocked with enough extra wheat to feed his family. That is God's providence. God uses natural circumstances to effect His supernatural desires.

(6) Daniel 4:17--King Nebuchadnezzar said of Babylon, "This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones, to the intent that the living may know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men." Nebuchadnezzar had the idea that he was the greatest ruler, but a vision came that Babylon would fall to the Medes and the Persians, who would be followed by the Greeks, and finally by the Romans. These were the four great world empires. But to whomever is in charge verse 17 says, "That the living may know that the Most High [God] ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will." Do you know who is running the politics of the United States of America behind the scenes, to affect His own will, even through the evil of men? God. The powers that be are ordained of God (Rom. 13:1). We may not always understand what God is doing but we can trust Him.

Daniel 4:25 says, "Till thou know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will." Verse 32 says the same thing: "Until thou know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will." If God said something once, it's important; but if God said something three times, you had better remember it! Verse 35 says "All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth."

Daniel 5:21 says, "Till he knew that the Most High God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointed over it whomsoever he will." Five times, God rules the kingdoms of men. That is the greatest political fact in existence. God is ruling and in control of destiny.
 
Upvote 0

Sabertooth

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!
Site Supporter
Jul 25, 2005
10,796
7,250
63
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟1,153,479.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As far as I can tell, the promise [of pain and suffering to be ultimately beneficial] is only made to lovers of God, in Romans 8:28. It is not necessary for Him to violate free will to do this.

He doesn't promise to intervene in the affairs of anyone else, though He still does.
 
Upvote 0

Bill777

Active Member
Oct 30, 2005
350
24
60
✟23,131.00
Faith
Christian
justinstout said:
This is not a New Testament concept. To say that it could be God's will for a woman to be brutally raped and murdered is blasphemous. I would not serve a god like that.. neither would the intelligent Christians that I know.

I re-edited my post. Please re-read. I wrote about God's work in Africa as well as an example of scriptural suffering.
 
Upvote 0

Bill777

Active Member
Oct 30, 2005
350
24
60
✟23,131.00
Faith
Christian
AnthonyE1778 said:
I do not believe that God is in control. The world is Satan's domain now. However, I do believe that God does know the future and everything in it.

I agree 100%. Still Satan operates under God's permission and Satan exists because God's will allows it. Sin and death entered the world through Adam. God will cast Satan into the Lake of fire at the end. So this world is Satan's, until he is destroyed by God and this world ends.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AnthonyE1778
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.