Is everything "meaningless" without God?

[Freodin]

Once your family and friends dies and there is nobody left to remember you, the world would be no different than had you never existed at all.

This again is incorrect. The world will be different. A tree that falls in the forest makes a sound even if no one hears it. And what is more... even if there is no one at all to observe it, if the universe is exterminated... it will have been a different universe than one where I never existed.

 

[Freodin]

Why do you need your life to be meaningful?

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I don't necessarily desire it to be meaningful, if that is what you mean by "need". It just happens automatically.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Not a fitting analogy. The man spends his whole life building a house that gets washed away every day, and every day he builds it anew. He found his meaning in life building a house. The day he dies and the house gets washed away is the day he no longer needs a house.

So now you take a man who spends one day to build a house that stands for the rest of his life. What now is his meaning?

I am asking you what would you call the labor of the man not the life of the man.

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[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

The reason they are important to me isn't always clear but it involves my genetic need to survive and my wellbeing, the survival and wellbeing of my family and friends plays a large role in my sense of wellbeing and security.

Why do you need to survive if all that will happen when you die is cease to exist?

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[Hikarifuru]

Edit: apparently there is some confusion on what the word "meaningless" means. The Hebrew word used for meaningless is הָ֫בֶל "hebel" which means futility, pointlessness, or fruitlessness. It has nothing to do with the purpose of something but rather what the end result of something.

An example would be a man trying to build a house next to the ocean and every day for the rest of his life the tide came in and swept his work away. The purpose of his work is to build a house. However, what does he have to show for all his labor in the end?

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A good example that shows the error in this declaration would be getting hungry and eating food, it serves a very important purpose and is full of meaning even though it is only temporary no matter how wonderful and good it is.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Taking care of our offspring concerns the genetic need to survive and reproduce.

Why do we need to survive and reproduce?



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[Hikarifuru]

Why do you need to survive if all that will happen when you die is cease to exist?

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Because survival is beneficial, regardless of how long it lasts and because I do not have the choice of not wanting to survive.

 

[Freodin]

I am asking you what would you call the labor of the man not the life of the man.

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You presented an analogy while talking about the "meaning" or "purpose" or "point" of life. I am not aware that you were asking a question there.

So what about what I call "labour" and what I call "life"? I was asking you for your point... in life, labour or whatever. You people are so set on asserting that we do not have a "point". But why can't you provide your own "point"?

 

[Hikarifuru]

Why do we need to survive and reproduce?



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We feel the importance of survival innately. It is not a divine being that teaches us to remove our hand from fire or crushing objects or to gasp for air.

 

[Grafted In]

This again is incorrect. The world will be different. A tree that falls in the forest makes a sound even if no one hears it. And what is more... even if there is no one at all to observe it, if the universe is exterminated... it will have been a different universe than one where I never existed.

There is no sound at all regardless of how many people are near it. Our ears are designed to gather pulses and patterns in air pressure and feed it to the brain. The brain then creates what we refer to as sound.
When we talk to one another our voicebox, lips, tungue and other tissues between the lungs and what leaves the mouth create a string of wavelengths, changes of pitch and so forth.
In other words, we manipulate parts of our bodies in a way that is recognized by our brain as spoken words

I believe the same thing is going on as we look around and see colors. The objects are not actually colored but reflect specific wave lengths that are recieved by the eyes and past on to the brain that is designed by our maker to interpret these frequencies as color.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Sorry, this is a kind of behaviour in a debate like this that I absolutely cannot stand.

You made some kind of assertion. We spend days debating this assertion, the follow-ups, the conclusions and consequences.

And now you think we will go back to the OP - trying to sift through everything to find out what you "clarified"... and then start the whole process again.

No, thank you. If you have something to clarify, just add it to the discussion. If you want to play the "edit" version, I could very well edit one of my posts here to "clarify" something that no-one will ever take notice of.

Since hitting the button that takes you to the first post is too difficult for you, here it is.

Edit: apparently there is some confusion on what the word "meaningless" means. The Hebrew word used for meaningless is הָ֫בֶל "hebel" which means futility, pointlessness, or fruitlessness. It has nothing to do with the purpose of something but rather what the end result of something.

An example would be a man trying to build a house next to the ocean and every day for the rest of his life the tide came in and swept his work away. The purpose of his work is to build a house. However, what does he have to show for all his labor in the end?

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[Chany]

Jumping into the discussion blind after the third page:

I'd like to switch the question around: how does having the god of classical theism (God) automatically give life meaning? What purpose or final end does choosing to follow God offer? Why does that final end matter? What purpose does it serve? Why follow God? The infinite chain of purpose has to have a final end, so what is it?

 

[Chriliman]

If meaning is created by "other sources" - and this is what you agreed to here- there each source must be an original true source.
Else it isn't a source, but just a medium. Make up your mind.


If an atheist really "gives his own life meaning", then he doesn't only think that he is the original true source... he is the original true source. Same for a theist who gives his own life meaning by believing that it is God who gives him meaning, just to mention it.

You keep admitting that... meaning is created by other sources, atheists give their own life meaning... but you fail to draw the logical conclusion from it.
When you make a statement like "an atheis thinks he is the original true source of meaning", you still see "meaning" as an independent entity: there is "something" and there is one "meaning of something".
But if, as you admitted, meaning can originate from different sources, this is, ehm - obviously - false. There is "something", and there are as many different "meanings of something" as there are sources.


Exactly. So if you stop existing and ascribing meaning to "life" (which, BTW, necessarily includes your views, opinions and observations of everything else you can see or imagine), there are "others who exist" who ascribe meaning to life.

Nowhere did I ever state or imply that "you" need to be the one and only source of "all" meaning that exists. The sum of "all meaning" (if you could phrase it as such) is created my the sum of "all sources".

All sources create all meaning. God doesn't.


Moving the goalposts. We are talking about where meaning comes from, not where the ability to create meaning comes from.


So we have come from "without God, everything is meaningless" to "even with God, some things are meaningless"
Are there things that are not meaningful?
Do you really think God created meaningless things?

So could God not create meaningless lifes?

Let's simplify.

If the first atheist is the first source of all meaning then his parents who are not the first atheists are also the first source of all meaning, this we have a contradiction.

If the first atheist is not the first source of all meaning, but only the source of his own meaning, then there was meaning before the atheist came into existence. Can he explain where this meaning came from that was there before he was?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

"Atheism" says no such thing. That is a straw man.



Life is the purpose of life. More specifically, the actualization of a living entity's potentials, such as through growth and maturation. Life is a self-sustaining process. It aims at more of itself, as far as its biological potentials and circumstances allow. It is the living thing's existence that is life's most basic purpose.


eudaimonia,

Mark

So the basic purpose of your life is "to exist"? Why?

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[Freodin]

An example would be a man trying to build a house next to the ocean and every day for the rest of his life the tide came in and swept his work away. The purpose of his work is to build a house. However, what does he have to show for all his labor in the end?

What does he have to show for all his labour in the end? Well, in what end?

If we follow your line of reasoning, there is no end. So what does he have to show?

And what is the point in having something to show?

 

[Freodin]

Let's simplify.

If the first atheist is the first source of all meaning then his parents who are not the first atheists are also the first source of all meaning, this we have a contradiction.

If the first atheist is not the first source of all meaning, but only the source of his own meaning, then there was meaning before the atheist came into existence. Can he explain where this meaning came from that was there before he was?

If the first "atheist" (why atheist?) is the source of his own meaning, then, being the first, he is also the source of all meaning. As soon as another "atheist" (why not a theist? Are theists unable to create meaning?) "comes into existence", the meaning the first atheist created will not be "all meaning" any more.

And now to switch sides.
If the atheist is "only" the source of his own meaning... how then can God be the source of "all" meaning?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

No, I will have lived a human life. That will be true for the rest of eternity.


eudaimonia,

Mark

What makes human life different from a bacterium?


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[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I don't necessarily desire it to be meaningful, if that is what you mean by "need". It just happens automatically.

Why? Are you suggesting that if your life had no meaning you would be fine with that?

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[Eudaimonist]

So the basic purpose of your life is "to exist"? Why?

It matters to me more than non-existence. Existence has an edge over non-existence in that it exists.

Everything that I am is found in my existence. All of my values are found in my existence. All of my needs are found in my existence. All of my growth is found in my existence. All of my happiness is found in my existence.

What is the mystery here?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

What makes human life different from a bacterium?

You are just being obtuse here.


eudaimonia,

Mark