Is everything "meaningless" without God?

Freodin · Jun 3, 2016

Chriliman said:
If there's an original true source of meaning then all other meaning is derived from that original source.

If meaning is created by "other sources" - and this is what you agreed to here- there each source must be an original true source.
Else it isn't a source, but just a medium. Make up your mind.

An atheist thinks he is the original true source of meaning because he gives his own life meaning, nothing else.

If an atheist really "gives his own life meaning", then he doesn't only think that he is the original true source... he is the original true source. Same for a theist who gives his own life meaning by believing that it is God who gives him meaning, just to mention it.

You keep admitting that... meaning is created by other sources, atheists give their own life meaning... but you fail to draw the logical conclusion from it.
When you make a statement like "an atheis thinks he is the original true source of meaning", you still see "meaning" as an independent entity: there is "something" and there is one "meaning of something".
But if, as you admitted, meaning can originate from different sources, this is, ehm - obviously - false. There is "something", and there are as many different "meanings of something" as there are sources.

I'm saying that I exist and that I don't ascribe all meaning to life. This is a logical thing to say because there are others who exist that do ascribe meaning to life apart from myself.

Exactly. So if you stop existing and ascribing meaning to "life" (which, BTW, necessarily includes your views, opinions and observations of everything else you can see or imagine), there are "others who exist" who ascribe meaning to life.

Nowhere did I ever state or imply that "you" need to be the one and only source of "all" meaning that exists. The sum of "all meaning" (if you could phrase it as such) is created my the sum of "all sources".

All sources create all meaning. God doesn't.

I did not give them the ability to ascribe meaning to their lives. God did.

Moving the goalposts. We are talking about where meaning comes from, not where the ability to create meaning comes from.

So no, it's not just me and God, it's God and all who He has given life to, me being one of those who He has given life and the ability to discern what is meaningful and what is not.

So we have come from "without God, everything is meaningless" to "even with God, some things are meaningless"
Are there things that are not meaningful?
Do you really think God created meaningless things?

So could God not create meaningless lifes?

Kenny'sID · Jun 3, 2016

Eudaimonist said:
This is the horrible nihilism of Christianity. It tries to make this life a mere means to the end of an afterlife, thus draining this life of meaning when taken from the Christian context.

Not so horrible at all to the Christian, it's just the way it is due to their beliefs. The Atheist will find their own meaning. I think one of the misconceptions here is the Christian is talking about the meaning of their life from their point of view and have no intention of saying that's what the meaning of life should be for the Atheist. Yet some Atheists, and not just you, seem to want to take it as something we are putting on them or that they should think when we know better....right? Could be some of the Christians are doing the same...I'd have to reread to see.

There is no way The Atheist is going to see this the same as the Christian or vice versa..their views are going to be as different as their beliefs.

Eudaimonist said:
It's like this life becomes an unpleasant examination one must pass in order to graduate to the right afterlife. Life -- this life -- is devalued into a pure means.

To the Christian it's both pleasant and unpleasant at times, but over all you have it right, that's just the way it is for some of us. Nothing wrong with us indicating that either. Again, not a view you must have, nor is it intended as such.

Hieronymus · Jun 3, 2016

ToddNotTodd said:
So it's "obvious" that meaning is meaningless now if at the end of the universe there's no one around?

Exactly.

Hieronymus · Jun 3, 2016

Kenny'sID said:
Not so horrible at all to the Christian, it's just the way it is due to their beliefs. The Atheist will find their own meaning.

But it will have been meaningless in the end.
We have shown that numerous times.
As i said, it's an unpleasant thought for an atheist, so they simply deny it.

Freodin · Jun 3, 2016

Hieronymus said:
But it will have been meaningless in the end.
We have shown that numerous times.
As i said, it's an unpleasant thought for an atheist, so they simply deny it.

This isn't an "unpleasant" thought for an atheist... it is a false thought for an atheist.

Every atheist, most likely, would agree with you that "it will be meaningless in the end". But to retroactively declare that "it will all have been meaningless in the end."... well, no.

This is where your "logic" leads you to a false end.

Davian · Jun 3, 2016

Hieronymus said:
But it will have been meaningless in the end.
We have shown that numerous times.
As i said, it's an unpleasant thought for an atheist, so they simply deny it.

Another Unsuccessful Test

Davian
Feb 27, 2016

Eudaimonist · Jun 3, 2016

Hieronymus said:
But it will have been meaningless in the end.
We have shown that numerous times.
As i said, it's an unpleasant thought for an atheist, so they simply deny it.

The thought of death is unpleasant. However, you have not shown that something being "meaningless in the end" means that it is meaningless right now when it matters.

No one disputes that life will be meaningless "in the end" after life no longer exists. You have "shown" it numerous times, and no one has disagreed with you. There is nothing to deny except the conclusion that life is meaningless while life exists, which you have failed to support with a complete argument.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Hieronymus · Jun 3, 2016

Eudaimonist said:
The thought of death is unpleasant. However, you have not shown that something being "meaningless in the end" means that it is meaningless right now when it matters.

You're clutching at straws.

No one disputes that life will be meaningless "in the end" after life no longer exists.

And therefore it is meaningless.

You have "shown" it numerous times, and no one has disagreed with you.

They have, and you just did too.

There is nothing to deny except the conclusion that life is meaningless while life exists, which you have failed to support with a complete argument.

You pose a logical fallacy.
You only FEEL meaningful, but you can not point out the meaning as an atheist. (plural you)

But hey, it's only philosophy

Eudaimonist · Jun 3, 2016

Hieronymus said:
You're clutching at straws.

You haven't given me any reason to do so. You haven't presented anything like a complete logical case.

And therefore it is meaningless.

Non-sequitur. You are missing at least one logical step to arrive at that conclusion.

They have, and you just did too.

No, I don't. I agree that life will be meaningless after life no longer exists. However, that doesn't mean that life is meaningless right now.

You pose a logical fallacy.

Do tell. Which logical fallacy is it? How does it apply?

You only FEEL meaningful, but you can not point out the meaning as an atheist.

I can and have. The meaning of life is life. Life is an end-in-itself. It is my nature as a living being that makes my life meaningful to me, regardless of how I feel.

You might want to ask me a question before telling me that I can't answer it.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Freodin · Jun 3, 2016

Hieronymus said:
You only FEEL meaningful, but you can not point out the meaning as an atheist. (plural you)

Well, that now is quite interesting. I was wondering about that just right now.

You and the other Christians constantly assert that there is no meaning without God, that we cannot show any meaning without God.

Can you point out the meaning as a Christian? Convincingly? Logically? Without just begging the question?

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Jun 3, 2016

ToddNotTodd said:
I give my life meaning. Why? Because nothing else can. Why? Because that's reality.

Hmmm, don't need a "why" after that one.

I guess you're not very good with your guarantees...

I did not ask "why do you give your life meaning?". I know the answer to that. It is because an atheist life inharently has no meaning or purpose so you must make something up to fill a void. Whatever purpose or meaning you give yourself is nothing more than a vain attempt to fill a void. I asked "what is the meaning of your life?". Then, if you kept asking yourself why it gives your life meaning, ultimately you would realize that the very thing that gives your life meaning is futile in the end.

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Freodin · Jun 3, 2016

Eudaimonist said:
I can and have. The meaning of life is life. Life is an end-in-itself. It is my nature as a living being that makes my life meaningful to me, regardless of how I feel.

I'd like to change that a little bit:
"It is my nature as a living being that makes my life meaningful to me, because of how I feel."

Contrary to what Hieronymus said, I don't think there is a difference what you "only feel" meaningful and what is meaningful.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Jun 3, 2016

DeanW said:
because you will and do care about these things.

Why do you care about these things?

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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Jun 3, 2016

DeanW said:
It isn't sensible to ask a parent why they feel committed to their children or to wonder why and argue that they could infact be meaningless without a god.

Why are parents committed to their children?

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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Jun 3, 2016

Davian said:
And what about the wolf pack? Why do you think the wolf pack does not eat the pups, and instead feeds and protect them?

Probably instincts. Could you please answer my question? What would you call a man who spent his entire life trying to build a house next to the ocean only to have the tide take it away every day?

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Freodin · Jun 3, 2016

jason_delisle said:
I did not ask "why do you give your life meaning?". I asked "what is the meaning of your life?". Then, if you kept asking yourself why it gives your life meaning, ultimately you would realize that the very thing that gives your life meaning is futile in the end.

It isn't futile "in the end". There is no ultimate goal "at the end". It is meaninful "until the end".

Freodin · Jun 3, 2016

jason_delisle said:
Probably instincts. Could you please answer my question? What would you call a man who spent his entire life trying to build a house next to the ocean only to have the tide take it away every day?

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Not a fitting analogy. The man spends his whole life building a house that gets washed away every day, and every day he builds it anew. He found his meaning in life building a house. The day he dies and the house gets washed away is the day he no longer needs a house.

So now you take a man who spends one day to build a house that stands for the rest of his life. What now is his meaning?

Hikarifuru · Jun 3, 2016

jason_delisle said:
Why are parents committed to their children?

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What I am providing is that these questions are not as important as is the fact that they ARE important to the normal reasonable person. Arguing that life is meaningless isn't realistic, because you do not consider life meaningless. You are providing an argument that you yourself do not believe. You're just enjoying the mysteriousness of the pipedream.

If you are trying to imply that this importance comes from a god, there is no more reason to assume it comes from a god than it does a rock, or a piece of bread, or a mother, or a crayon. The meaning I find in this life and that I do have has nothing to do with gods or design of divine purpose or after life. It's that these things are important to me. The reason they are important to me isn't always clear but it involves my genetic need to survive and my wellbeing, the survival and wellbeing of my family and friends plays a large role in my sense of wellbeing and security.

Hikarifuru · Jun 3, 2016

jason_delisle said:
Why are parents committed to their children?

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For the same reason they get hungry every few hours, it's a part of our evolutionary biology and our needs. Taking care of our offspring concerns the genetic need to survive and reproduce. It's a basic human need. It no more requires a god than the need to remove your hand from fire.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Jun 3, 2016

jason_delisle said:
The book of Ecclesiastes starts out with a startling exclamation:

“‘Meaningless! Meaningless!’
says the Teacher.
‘Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless’” (Ecclesiastes 1:2).

Other translations have the word vanity or futility in place of meaningless. The point is the same: Solomon in his old age has found everything in this world to be empty and void of meaning. This lament becomes the theme of the whole book.

Saying that everything is meaningless sounds depressing, but we must keep Solomon’s point of view in mind. This is found in Ecclesiastes 1:14: “I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.” The key phrase is under the sun, which is repeated throughout the book. Solomon is sharing an earth-bound perspective. He is only considering life “under the sun”; that is, a human life lived to the exclusion of any consideration of God. From that godless perspective, everything is indeed “meaningless.”

In the book of Ecclesiastes, Solomon discusses ten vanities—ten things that are “meaningless” when considered from the limited point of view of “under the sun.” Without God, human wisdom is meaningless (2:14–16); labor (2:18–23); amassing things (2:26); life itself (3:18–22); competition (4:4); selfish overwork (4:7–8); power and authority (4:16); greed (5:10); wealth and accolades (6:1–2); and perfunctory religion (8:10–14).

When Solomon says, “Everything is meaningless,” he did not mean that everything in the world is of zero value. Rather, his point is that all human efforts apart from God’s will are meaningless. Solomon had it all, and he had tried everything, but when he left God out of the equation, nothing satisfied him. There is purpose in life, and it is found in knowing God and keeping His commands. That’s why Solomon ends his book this way:

“Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind” (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

So if God does not exist, the universe was created from nothing, by nothing, for absolutely no reason. All life, including our own, is nothing more than a byproduct of nature by natural means and when we die we will fade into nothing. Ultimately the universe will use up all its energy (per the laws of thermodynamics ) and fade into blackness. With all that being said, what's the point? Is everything not meaningless?

Edit: apparently there is some confusion on what the word "meaningless" means. The Hebrew word used for meaningless is הָ֫בֶל "hebel" which means futility, pointlessness, or fruitlessness. It has nothing to do with the purpose of something but rather what the end result of something.

An example would be a man trying to build a house next to the ocean and every day for the rest of his life the tide came in and swept his work away. The purpose of his work is to build a house. However, what does he have to show for all his labor in the end?

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