Is everything "meaningless" without God?

[Davian]

1) Everything is ultimately meaningless in atheism because everything ultimately ceases to exist.

Depends. I knew an atheist that believed in spirits and an afterlife.

2) If everything is ultimately meaningless then everything is temporarily meaningless.

If we are taking turns defining words as we see fit, I define "religion" as "beliefs that give the illusion of meaning".

Why would anyone want that, if it is only illusory?

3) Everything is meaningless.

Yet all these non-beleivers get up every day, go to work, have babies, and get on with enjoying life. Could it be you are missing something?

 

[Ken-1122]

So if God does not exist, the universe was created from nothing, by nothing, for absolutely no reason.

It would perhaps be considered a leap to assume the Universe was actually created.

All life, including our own, is nothing more than a byproduct of nature by natural means and when we die we will fade into nothing. Ultimately the universe will use up all its energy (per the laws of thermodynamics ) and fade into blackness. With all that being said, what's the point? Is everything not meaningless?

The point is what you do now.

Edit: apparently there is some confusion on what the word "meaningless" means. The Hebrew word used for meaningless is הָ֫בֶל "hebel" which means futility, pointlessness, or fruitlessness. It has nothing to do with the purpose of something but rather what the end result of something.

An example would be a man trying to build a house next to the ocean and every day for the rest of his life the tide came in and swept his work away. The purpose of his work is to build a house. However, what does he have to show for all his labor in the end?

That analogy seems to suggest the goal in life is to die; and go somewhere else. Why don’t people with that perspective just kill themselves and get it all over with?

Using that analogy, my goal and purpose is to spend as much time building that house despising the day I complete it.

Ken

 

[Nithavela]

Nithavela will now define "meaningful" in such a way that it can be reduced to neither reduced to "fulfillment of a goal or purpose, however ghastly" nor "a pursuit of a worthy cause in a satisfying way." Note "worthy" begs the metaethical question.

In an early book, atheist Richard Dawkins admits that secular humanism and evolution imply a lack of meaning or right and wrong in life. But he takes so much flack from this that in later books he groundlessly postulates meaning and moral value.

Nithavela will now put you on the ignore list because it is very rude to act towards someone like this.

 

[Matthew Masoud]

This world means nothing without Him. I have to say that yes, everything IS meaningless without Him.

 

[SteveB28]

Of course, life is ultimately meaningless without accountability to God or at least some system of retribution like eastern karma. The relevant branch of Philosophy is metaethics and the relevant question that no skeptic can satisfactorily answer is this: What makes right actions right?

Without God, evolution is based on the survival of the fittest or best adaptive strategies without regard for altruism, although there are a few relationships in the animal kingdom that fit under the category animal altruism. On this model, our ethical sensibilities are merely values incorporated to promote the survival of our species. As such, they are culturally conditioned without any grounding in absolute truth. Nature is rarely kind! Put differently, without God, you have no answer to the question, "Why shouldn't I harm others if this gives me some advantage and makes me happy?" The threat of social sanctions is a pragmatic, not a moral consideration. The question is, why shouldn't I live for self at the expense of others, if I can get away with it and this gives me the advantage I want? Social values are merely expressions of biological instincts and social peer pressure. Aa atheist has no way to justify his claim to be a good and decent father and husband. If an atheist asks, "Where is your God?", I counter, "Where is the realm of moral absolutes and values?"

Postmortem accountability to a loving God makes morality meaningful. God doesn't decree values because they're right; they're right because God degrees them. By definition, no moral standard can be higher or independent of God. "But that's ridiculous," you say. "What if God decrees hateful actions?" Then we can choose to defy God's decrees and pay the consequences. But in fact, I serve the Christian God of love. In the Christian worldview. morality and ethics are just logical deductions from lifestyles and choices that are consistent with the will of a loving God.

Poppycock!

This skeptic can certainly explain what makes 'right'. It is that condition, agreed upon by a community of humans, which results in a minimum of harm and/or a maximum of pleasure for the individual and the group as a whole.

'Absolutes' here are a figment of imagination.

 

[Eudaimonist]

This world means nothing without Him. I have to say that yes, everything IS meaningless without Him.

For you, perhaps. I can understand how someone steeped in religion would feel that way.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Archaeopteryx]

This world means nothing without Him. I have to say that yes, everything IS meaningless without Him.

Why?

 

[SAM ASRY]

This world means nothing without Him. I have to say that yes, everything IS meaningless without Him.

And God will not feel the loss if we do not worship Him. Without man, God is nothing and His creation in vain.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The difference between an atheist and myself is I know better.....there is life beyond here which makes what we do here meaningful....atheists, OTOH, see nothing but hopelessness because they can only see this life.....and nothing more...

Nothing but hopelessness? On the contrary, I'm very hopeful. If we want a better world, we're going to have to build it ourselves.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You do realize that I am a Christian so I am not a nihilist? You are just in denial about the fact that anything you do apart from God is vanity.

You are one step away from nihilism.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Somewhat relevant to this thread:

 

[Freodin]

You do realize that I am a Christian so I am not a nihilist? You are just in denial about the fact that anything you do apart from God is vanity.

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If you want to keep using this argumentation, you need to, ehm, stop being in denial about the fact that anything you do not apart from God is also vanity.

What does that even mean, "apart from God"? If that had any meaning, I should be able to find a reasonable opposite for it, shouldn't I? But I just can't find one that makes sense. "With God"? Also meaningless.

Let's go back to the old example. Man building a house on the shore that is washed away by the flood each morning. "Apart from God", doing such a thing is vanity. "With God"... it is suddenly not vanity?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

If you want to keep using this argumentation, you need to, ehm, stop being in denial about the fact that anything you do not apart from God is also vanity.

What does that even mean, "apart from God"? If that had any meaning, I should be able to find a reasonable opposite for it, shouldn't I? But I just can't find one that makes sense. "With God"? Also meaningless.

Let's go back to the old example. Man building a house on the shore that is washed away by the flood each morning. "Apart from God", doing such a thing is vanity. "With God"... it is suddenly not vanity?

Living a life "apart from God" and doing things "apart part from God" is being of the world. I know you are going to ask, "What the heck does that mean?"

When we read of the "world" in the New Testament, we are reading the Greek word cosmos. Cosmos most often refers to the inhabited earth and the people who live on the earth, which functions apart from God. Satan is the ruler of this "cosmos" (John 12:31; 16:11; 1 John 5:19). By the simple definition that the word world refers to a world system ruled by Satan, we can more readily appreciate Christ's claims that believers are no longer of the world—we are no longer ruled by sin, nor are we bound by the principles of the world. In addition, we are being changed into the image of Christ, causing our interest in the things of the world to become less and less as we mature in Christ.

Believers in Jesus Christ are simply in the world—physically present—but not of it, not part of its values (John 17:14-15). As believers, we should be set apart from the world. This is the meaning of being holy and living a holy, righteous life—to be set apart. We are not to engage in the sinful activities the world promotes, nor are we to retain the insipid, corrupt mind that the world creates. Rather, we are to conform ourselves, and our minds, to that of Jesus Christ (Romans 12:1-2). This is a daily activity and commitment.

We must also understand that being in the world, but not of it, is necessary if we are to be a light to those who are in spiritual darkness. We are to live in such a way that those outside the faith see our good deeds and our manner and know that there is something “different” about us. Christians who make every effort to live, think and act like those who do not know Christ do Him a great disservice. Even the heathen knows that “by their fruits you shall know them,” and as Christians, we should exhibit the fruit of the Spirit within us.

Being “in” the world also means we can enjoy the things of the world, such as the beautiful creation God has given us, but we are not to immerse ourselves in what the world values, nor are we to chase after worldly pleasures. Pleasure is no longer our calling in life, as it once was, but rather the worship of God.

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[Freodin]

Living a life "apart from God" and doing things "apart part from God" is being of the world. I know you are going to ask, "What the heck does that mean?"

When we read of the "world" in the New Testament, we are reading the Greek word cosmos. Cosmos most often refers to the inhabited earth and the people who live on the earth, which functions apart from God. Satan is the ruler of this "cosmos" (John 12:31; 16:11; 1 John 5:19). By the simple definition that the word world refers to a world system ruled by Satan, we can more readily appreciate Christ's claims that believers are no longer of the world—we are no longer ruled by sin, nor are we bound by the principles of the world. In addition, we are being changed into the image of Christ, causing our interest in the things of the world to become less and less as we mature in Christ.

Believers in Jesus Christ are simply in the world—physically present—but not of it, not part of its values (John 17:14-15). As believers, we should be set apart from the world. This is the meaning of being holy and living a holy, righteous life—to be set apart. We are not to engage in the sinful activities the world promotes, nor are we to retain the insipid, corrupt mind that the world creates. Rather, we are to conform ourselves, and our minds, to that of Jesus Christ (Romans 12:1-2). This is a daily activity and commitment.

We must also understand that being in the world, but not of it, is necessary if we are to be a light to those who are in spiritual darkness. We are to live in such a way that those outside the faith see our good deeds and our manner and know that there is something “different” about us. Christians who make every effort to live, think and act like those who do not know Christ do Him a great disservice. Even the heathen knows that “by their fruits you shall know them,” and as Christians, we should exhibit the fruit of the Spirit within us.

Being “in” the world also means we can enjoy the things of the world, such as the beautiful creation God has given us, but we are not to immerse ourselves in what the world values, nor are we to chase after worldly pleasures. Pleasure is no longer our calling in life, as it once was, but rather the worship of God.

Thanks for taking your time to provide this in-depth explanation.

Now if you could apply this to the question I asked, instead of just providing a standard theology lecture (that I had heard before)... you might come a little closer to being a light to me poor spiritual-darkness-dweller.

 

[bhsmte]

This world means nothing without Him. I have to say that yes, everything IS meaningless without Him.

You can believe that.

 

[variant]

Is everything "meaningless" without God?

If and only if you need a being with the ability to create universes and do basically whatever it wants in order to have meaning.

I'm not exactly sure how meaning could possibly spring from a subject that is unchallenged by any external threats in any way shape or form but that is what some people believe.

In fact when you write fiction and you have characters that are unchallenged and unfettered and their enemys are said to be evil and they have no personal failings it's called a "Mary Sue" which makes it some laughably poor writing.

In essence such a story is meaningless.

The Bible on the other hand is about a very interesting charicter with all sorts of failings and challenges. It's called man.

 

[StanJ]

The book of Ecclesiastes starts out with a startling exclamation:
“‘Meaningless! Meaningless!’
says the Teacher.
‘Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless’” (Ecclesiastes 1:2).
Other translations have the word vanity or futility in place of meaningless. The point is the same: Solomon in his old age has found everything in this world to be empty and void of meaning. This lament becomes the theme of the whole book.
Saying that everything is meaningless sounds depressing, but we must keep Solomon’s point of view in mind. This is found in Ecclesiastes 1:14: “I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.” The key phrase is under the sun, which is repeated throughout the book. Solomon is sharing an earth-bound perspective. He is only considering life “under the sun”; that is, a human life lived to the exclusion of any consideration of God. From that godless perspective, everything is indeed “meaningless.”
In the book of Ecclesiastes, Solomon discusses ten vanities—ten things that are “meaningless” when considered from the limited point of view of “under the sun.” Without God, human wisdom is meaningless (2:14–16); labor (2:18–23); amassing things (2:26); life itself (3:18–22); competition (4:4); selfish overwork (4:7–8); power and authority (4:16); greed (5:10); wealth and accolades (6:1–2); and perfunctory religion (8:10–14).
When Solomon says, “Everything is meaningless,” he did not mean that everything in the world is of zero value. Rather, his point is that all human efforts apart from God’s will are meaningless. Solomon had it all, and he had tried everything, but when he left God out of the equation, nothing satisfied him. There is purpose in life, and it is found in knowing God and keeping His commands. That’s why Solomon ends his book this way:
“Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind” (Ecclesiastes 12:13).
So if God does not exist, the universe was created from nothing, by nothing, for absolutely no reason. All life, including our own, is nothing more than a byproduct of nature by natural means and when we die we will fade into nothing. Ultimately the universe will use up all its energy (per the laws of thermodynamics ) and fade into blackness. With all that being said, what's the point? Is everything not meaningless?
Edit: apparently there is some confusion on what the word "meaningless" means. The Hebrew word used for meaningless is הָ֫בֶל "hebel" which means futility, pointlessness, or fruitlessness. It has nothing to do with the purpose of something but rather what the end result of something.
An example would be a man trying to build a house next to the ocean and every day for the rest of his life the tide came in and swept his work away. The purpose of his work is to build a house. However, what does he have to show for all his labor in the end?

One Has to understand that Solomon wrote this book when he was in a backslidden state. His wisdom was failing him and he's getting further and further from God. This book gives a good indication of what it would be like for any of us to fall into apostasy.

 

[Chany]

Why should a can opener open cans? Because that is what it was created to do. If it will not open cans, it would be labeled broken and tossed away. Your purpose is to love God and others. If you cannot do that, God will label you broken and your soul will be tossed away.

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I'm going to assume that having my soul tossed away will not be pleasant. God doesn't sound very loving: some theists assume that creating something automatically gives one carte blanche in treating the creation however one wants. However, I do not see how a just being can treat moral agents however he/she wants, even if the being created the agents.

Ignoring that: a meaning enforced through fear does not gain any actual validity. Going back to the king example: if my king declares a proclamation the meaning of his subjects' lives is to watch paint dry, does the threat of capital punishment for failing to comply make the proclamation any more meaningful? Or, is the threat of harm irrelevant to the meaninglessness of the task? Sure, watching paint dry gains a much more important meaning to me now that the activity has life or death consequences attached to it, but that is because I attach value to my life and watching paint dry is now an important instrumental end towards maintaining life. The actual content of the action doesn't appear to change. Again, if the only reason to follow along with some meaning is the threat of force or some type of harm by an authority figure, it doesn't gain any actual meaning. Because God threatens something bad will happen to me doesn't reinforce the purpose, "love God and others" as something to strive for; rather, it is reinforcing the end, "save my own skin". Again, why should I choose to follow God's "pre-ordained" meaning as an end?

 

[SteveB28]

If an existence is said to have 'purpose' and 'meaning', surely that also engages the concept of achievement. I'm wondering how, in the mind of a theist, the prospect of an infinite existence can be accompanied with the idea of achieving anything?

In this life, we plan, we learn, we energise ourselves, we get out of bed each day knowing that there are things we must do. We behave like this because we know time is limited, in order for us to complete those plans and goals.

What does one achieve in a limitless existence? How does one plan? How can one know that one's goals have been reached? Like the Russians' crazy Five Year Plans from years ago, does the theist involve a series of Five Billion Year Plans? And how long is it before even these become tedious and repetitive and meaningless?

Silly people. Not only does this life bring with it meaning and purpose.....it is the only thing with meaning and purpose!

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Thanks for taking your time to provide this in-depth explanation.

Now if you could apply this to the question I asked, instead of just providing a standard theology lecture (that I had heard before)... you might come a little closer to being a light to me poor spiritual-darkness-dweller.

What it boils down to is this. God is eternal and everlasting, and the earth is not. If you live of the world and apart from God, it all is tempory and will eventually cease to exist. Living in a relationship with God and seeking to please Him is the only thing that is everlasting.

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