Is Everybody going to heaven?

[Floatingaxe]

Brimstone is not a purifying agent in Scripture. It is an agent of God's wrath only.

 

[enoch son]

2 Corinth 4:4- In their case, the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe to keep them from seeing the light of the glorious gospel of the Messiah, who is the image of God.

The god of this world is not self, as you can see the above verse it is not gods it is god. There is only one god of this world. If arguing semantics helps, you will also see it doesn't say devil, it says the god of this world.

Thats funny then how can something cruse by God to crawl on it's belly in the dust (gen.) then be said to be walking to and fro and going up and down. (job) void the cruse of God? Your doctrine fall short or the word is a lie. And I don't think it's the word.

 

[enoch son]

Brimstone is not a purifying ahent in Scripture. It is an agent of God's wrath only.

So much for perfect love casting out all fear.

 

[Floatingaxe]

So much for perfect love casting out all fear.

Healthy fear of judgment is good. Universalists have so much fear and are so out of balance that they deny that God is a jealous God and that He is storing up His wrath. His anger and displeasure waxes hot. He is not only a God who loves, but He is a perfect balance of all character traits.

 

[TasManOfGod]

There is no "crime" without punishment
There is no redemption without repentance

 

[DeborahsSong]

Brimstone is an agent of God's wrath, but it is also used to refine precious metal in ancient times and today. Jesus said the wicked would be thrown into a fiery furnace (refining furnace, in the Greek text). God relieves himself of his foes and avenges himself of his enemies by removing their dross. (Isa 1:24-26) and making them into a righteous city. This is how the wicked are destroyed-like metal ore. It's a change of state.

Of course there is punishment, but the word Jesus uses in Mt 25:46 is a Greek word that refers to remedial punishment, designed to benefit the one who receives it. He did not use the Greek word for retributive punishment. Although remedial punishment can be extremely harsh, it is still training in sonship. Jesus taught that everyone will be salted with fire (Mk 9:47), and he was referencing Gehenna when he made this statement. Do your overcoming in this life and you will not be hurt by the second death (Rev 2:11).

Repentence is necessary, but it is a gift of God that he delivers using various carrot/stick techniques (see my recent earlier post). Jesus also said: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44. There's another good passage from John on this point, again the words of our Lord: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" John 12:32. The Greek word translated "draw" really means "drag", but it's offensive to man's sensibilities, his self importance and doesn't mesh well with the nonbiblical doctrine of "free moral choice".

 

[Floatingaxe]

Brimstone is an agent of God's wrath, but it is also used to refine precious metal in ancient times and today. Jesus said the wicked would be thrown into a fiery furnace (refining furnace, in the Greek text). God relieves himself of his foes and avenges himself of his enemies by removing their dross. (Isa 1:24-26) and making them into a righteous city. This is how the wicked are destroyed-like metal ore. It's a change of state.

Of course there is punishment, but the word Jesus uses in Mt 25:46 is a Greek word that refers to remedial punishment, designed to benefit the one who receives it. He did not use the Greek word for retributive punishment. Although remedial punishment can be extremely harsh, it is still training in sonship. Jesus taught that everyone will be salted with fire (Mk 9:47), and he was referencing Gehenna when he made this statement. Do your overcoming in this life and you will not be hurt by the second death (Rev 2:11).

Repentence is necessary, but it is a gift of God that he delivers using various carrot/stick techniques (see my recent earlier post). Jesus also said: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44. There's another good passage from John on this point, again the words of our Lord: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" John 12:32. The Greek word translated "draw" really means "drag", but it's offensive to man's sensibilities, his self importance and doesn't mesh well with the nonbiblical doctrine of "free moral choice".

Remedial? That's crazy!

Matthew 25:46
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”


Draw means "draw". The UR agenda is achieved by Bible rewrites and reinterpretations that soothe their own fears, and accomodate their craving for more and more milk.

 

[Jpark]

hey all just bringing in a new dose of Scriptures right here on the spot

Matthew 5:22; Matthew 23:33

Here hell fire is literally "Gehenna" which is referring to Valley of Hinnom (2 Kings 23:10). Hell is a real place, a real condemnation. Revelation 20:10 is not symbolical. The devil is really going to hell and he knows it. And he will be tormented day and night. Isaiah 14:9 says that hell is beneath the earth. Luke 16:23 reveals the Greek name for Hell and it reveals it is a place of torments and notice that there is no lapse between the rich man's death and being buried v. 22 and v.23 being in torments.

 

[enoch son]

Healthy fear of judgment is good. Universalists have so much fear and are so out of balance that they deny that God is a jealous God and that He is storing up His wrath. His anger and displeasure waxes hot. He is not only a God who loves, but He is a perfect balance of all character traits.

I have no idea what god you are talking about? My Lord and saver said "FORGIVE THEM". Your reads like hate. If he blows up will he be a super nova?

 

[enoch son]

Remedial? That's crazy!

Matthew 25:46
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”


Draw means "draw". The UR agenda is achieved by Bible rewrites and reinterpretations that soothe their own fears, and accomodate their craving for more and more milk.

Got greek!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! draw in the greek is drag. But ha we milk drinker like to look things up before we open our mouths.

 

[enoch son]

hey all just bringing in a new dose of Scriptures right here on the spot

Matthew 5:22; Matthew 23:33

Here hell fire is literally "Gehenna" which is referring to Valley of Hinnom (2 Kings 23:10). Hell is a real place, a real condemnation. Revelation 20:10 is not symbolical. The devil is really going to hell and he knows it. And he will be tormented day and night. Isaiah 14:9 says that hell is beneath the earth. Luke 16:23 reveals the Greek name for Hell and it reveals it is a place of torments and notice that there is no lapse between the rich man's death and being buried v. 22 and v.23 being in torments.

You got a lot of problems in your belief. "gehenna" in Jesus time was a tash dump outside the potter gate in Jer. which bye the way God had jer. procliam the new con. in and break the potter's cup. As for new dose of scripture this was covered 70 pages or so back. Which were blow away and the "wrath side" started there personal attacks. HO YUM!

 

[Mikecpking]

Actually, no one is going to Heaven.

Look up John 3:13
Acts 2:34

No one has ascended to heaven, except Jesus.

Rather, God is bringing his inheritance to the new earth out of heaven with him!

Rev 21: 2 to 3

No one goes to Heaven when they die; the key belief of Christianity and the Hebrew was resurrection on the last day.

Daniel 12:2
John 6:54

 

[Jpark]

You got a lot of problems in your belief. "gehenna" in Jesus time was a tash dump outside the potter gate in Jer. which bye the way God had jer. procliam the new con. in and break the potter's cup. As for new dose of scripture this was covered 70 pages or so back. Which were blow away and the "wrath side" started there personal attacks. HO YUM!

oh really?

 

[Jpark]

This is the Greek translation of 2 Corinthians 5:8.

2 Corinthians 5:8 but we are confident and prefer rather to be away from home from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

ενδημεω endemeo; to be at home (present).

Definition for present (1)

13. pre·sent your·self [ pri zént ] vr be in appointed place: to appear, especially at an appointed time and place

This text conclusively disproves any notion that the believer experiences any lapse between death and his presence with Christ.

2 Corinthians 12:2, 4

The third heaven is God's home. The highest heaven, the presence of God. Paradise is identified here v. 4 with the the third heaven.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Even if a profession of faith is made in the last moments of death, there is still full access to heaven.

Matthew 22:32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Jesus pointed out that when God spoke the words of Ex. 3:6, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had been physically dead for many years. So evidently there is life after death.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

When we die we will be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:12-19 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Christianity completely depends on the real physical resurrection of the dead body of Chirst; otherwise, it is all a lie.

 

[Faulty]

Actually, no one is going to Heaven.

Look up John 3:13
Acts 2:34

No one has ascended to heaven, except Jesus.

Rather, God is bringing his inheritance to the new earth out of heaven with him!

Rev 21: 2 to 3

No one goes to Heaven when they die; the key belief of Christianity and the Hebrew was resurrection on the last day.

Daniel 12:2
John 6:54

You need a bit more study, but that's the topic of another thread.

 

[Mikecpking]

You need a bit more study, but that's the topic of another thread.

Don't worry! I have made a very in depth study.

I would be happy to take this up in the general theology forum with you.

2: Corinthians 5:8 must be looked in the light of 1 Corinthians 15. All Paul was stating is for his next waking moment (resurrection at the last day, to him a blink in the eye. To the rest of us, he is still in the grave), all contradictions with Daniel 12:2 and Acts 2:34 are completely removed.

Luke 23:43. Jesus promised the thief he would be in paradise with him. Not that very day, because we know Jesus was in the grave (hades, sheol). There is no punctuation in the Greek so one could say so the bible again does not contradict itself; "I am telling you today, you will be in paradise".
You will read that Jesus told Mary not to touch him, because he had not yet ascended to the Father and that was AFTER the resurrection.

The Hebrew model of resurrection completely blows away the Greek pagan idea that the soul is immortal as you will not find 'immortal' or 'eternal' attributed to the Hebrew word 'Nephesh' so which so much the disembodied existence view is based upon. What the Hebrews believed that death WAS NOT extinction, but the weakest form of life in Sheol. The dead person in the grave was not immaterial, but insubstantial. The became 'Rephaim', no longer 'Nephesh'.

Jesus promised eternal life and immortality is a gift (Romans 6:23) and we will get new resurrection bodies (1 cor 15).

If one goes to heaven immediately upon death, then really what is the point of resurrection? Paul argued against the Corinthian faction who believed there was no resurrection and that people went to either heaven or hell immediately (Obvious consequence of non-belief in the resurrection).

 

[Floatingaxe]

You need a bit more study, but that's the topic of another thread.

He's missing a few things!

 

[Jpark]

Don't worry! I have made a very in depth study.

I would be happy to take this up in the general theology forum with you.

2: Corinthians 5:8 must be looked in the light of 1 Corinthians 15. All Paul was stating is for his next waking moment (resurrection at the last day, to him a blink in the eye. To the rest of us, he is still in the grave), all contradictions with Daniel 12:2 and Acts 2:34 are completely removed.

Luke 23:43. Jesus promised the thief he would be in paradise with him. Not that very day, because we know Jesus was in the grave (hades, sheol). There is no punctuation in the Greek so one could say so the bible again does not contradict itself; "I am telling you today, you will be in paradise".
You will read that Jesus told Mary not to touch him, because he had not yet ascended to the Father and that was AFTER the resurrection.

The Hebrew model of resurrection completely blows away the Greek pagan idea that the soul is immortal as you will not find 'immortal' or 'eternal' attributed to the Hebrew word 'Nephesh' so which so much the disembodied existence view is based upon. What the Hebrews believed that death WAS NOT extinction, but the weakest form of life in Sheol. The dead person in the grave was not immaterial, but insubstantial. The became 'Rephaim', no longer 'Nephesh'.

Jesus promised eternal life and immortality is a gift (Romans 6:23) and we will get new resurrection bodies (1 cor 15).

If one goes to heaven immediately upon death, then really what is the point of resurrection? Paul argued against the Corinthian faction who believed there was no resurrection and that people went to either heaven or hell immediately (Obvious consequence of non-belief in the resurrection).

Three days Jesus was in Hades ministering to the spirits and pronouncing His victory. But what about the first resurrection in Revelation 20:5? Please clarify.

 

[DeborahsSong]

The recent posts are very interesting. We will be like Jesus, and his resurrection body was flesh and bone (so glad we are no longer flesh and blood!) and able to interface with both the spiritual and physical realms. However, I think the importance lies with the physical realm from God's standpoint. We were created to be the projection of him into the physical universe. We're here so he might enjoy creation through us, each one of us being his tabernacle. Jesus said that in my father's house are many dwelling places.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away: and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." Rev 21:1-3.

 

[Mikecpking]

Three days Jesus was in Hades ministering to the spirits and pronouncing His victory. But what about the first resurrection in Revelation 20:5? Please clarify.

It all depends if you are a pre or a post or an amillenialist. I personally do not believe in the millenium, but that does not mean I am right. I believe the coming of the Lord Jesus will be a one time event wrapping up history, but nowhere else in the NT speaks about this millenial reign for 1,000 years. You could say qualities of that reign are happening now, but obviously no mass resurrection has not happened yet! Events will tell!