Is Everybody going to heaven?

[Svt4Him]

Certainly, it serves God's ultimate purpose that man should sin. Since he is omnipotent, sin could not exist in his universe without his permission. He gave the law that sin might abound. (Ro 5:20). Man had no choice, but to sin. "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he might have mercy on them all." (Ro 11:32). It is God who hardens hearts, blinds eyes, stops ears. "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Ro 9:21).

This may be, but it fails to address the error in the belief that God's will is always fulfilled. God can and does use all things to fulfill His purpose, but God wills none to sin, as already shown earlier. So the argument that all are saved because God desires all to come to salvation does not mean all are saved.

 

[DeborahsSong]

All this to fit your skewed view of salvation?

WELL, DUALISM STRIKES ME AS SKEWED. WHAT ABOUT ISA 45:7. "I FORM THE LIGHT, AND CREATE DARKNESS: I MAKE PEACE, AND CREATE EVIL (CALAMITY). I THE LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS. "

WHO PERMITTED SATAN TO KILL JOB'S CHILDREN AND STRIKE JOB WITH DISEASE? WHOSE DEVIL IS HE?

Romans 5:20
God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant.

PRECISELY MY POINT.

Romans 9:21-22
When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.

THESE VERSES SUPPORT MY VIEW. ACTUALLY, SINCE BOTH TYPES OF VESSELS COME FROM THE SAME LUMP OF CLAY, BOTH ARE DESTROYED. "THE FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, EARTHY: THE SECOND MAN IS THE LORD FROM HEAVEN. AS IS THE EARTHY, SUCH ARE THEY ALSO THAT ARE EARTHY: AND AS IS THE HEAVENLY, SUCH ARE THEY ALSO THAT ARE HEAVENLY. AND AS WE HAVE BORNE THE IMAGE OF THE EARTHY, WE SHALL ALSO BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY. NOW THIS I SAY, BRETHEN, THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD: NEITHER DOTH CORRUPTION INHERIT INCORRUPTION. 1 COR 15:47-50.

 

[DeborahsSong]

Can't really see a contradiction here.

JUDGING FROM WHAT YOU HIGHLIGTED - "they might grope for Him and find Him"-YOU MISS MY POINT, WHICH IS THAT ALL ARE CHILDREN OF GOD. "29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising." EARLIER IN THE THREAD, THE ASSERTI0N WAS MADE THAT ONLY BELIEVERS WERE GOD'S CHILDREN.

Itis God's desire all are saved, that doesn't mean it will come to pass.

HOW CAN YOU STATE IT WILL NOT COME TO PASS WHEN CHRIST GATHERS ALL THINGS TO HIMSELF AND DELIVERS ALL TO THE FATHER, THAT HE MAY BE THE ALL IN ALL? HE'S NOT THE ALL IN SOME.

This again is a false assumption which only takes one case of God's will not coming to pass to be proven false.

HOW CAN THERE BE SUCH A CASE WHEN GOD IS OMNIPOTENT?

To begin with, are God's desires always accomplished? No, they are not. God's desire is that people do what is right and not sin: "To do righteousness and justice is desired by the Lord rather than sacrifice," (Prov. 21:3).

HE IS INSTRUCTING US THAT ON WHAT HE PREFERS. THIS IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD. HIS WILL IS NOT BEING VIOLATED BY THOSE WHO BRING SACRIFCES. THEY WILL EVENTUALLY LEARN THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF EVIL (CALAMITY).

But people still sin in spite of God's stated desire. Was it the desire of God that Adam and Eve rebel? No.

YES, SEE EARLIER POSTS.

Was it God's will that David commit adultery? No.

YES, SINCE HE PERMITTED IT TO HAPPEN. GOD ALWAYS DOES WHAT IS MOST LOVING. THE LESSONS DAVID NEEDED TO LEARN WERE SERVED BY PERMITTING THIS EVENT TO TAKE PLACE. AGAIN, DAVID LEARNED THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF EVIL (CALAMITY). PLUS, THERE IS THE ADDED BONUS THAT WE LEARN FROM WHAT BEFELL HIM.

Yet, they did the very thing God did not want. God commands that all people repent (Acts 17:30); but not all do. Clearly, God's will is not always done.

ALL WILL REPENT IN THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIMES.

In Revelation. 17:16, God put it into the hearts of people to rebel so that His prophetic word could be fulfilled.

I THINK YOU MEAN REV 17:17. STRANGE THAT YOU WOULD MAKE THIS POINT, SINCE YOU DIDN'T CREDIT HIM WITH BRINGING ABOUT THE REBELLION OF ADAM AND EVE.

God was, is, and will continue to control events in order to accomplish His divine plan. He is bringing these people to a place of being destroyed and it isn't simply because they are rebellious. It is because "God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose . . .until the words of God should be fulfilled"!

DOESN'T THIS SUPPORT MY POSITION? BY THE WAY, NOT TO BELABOR A POINT, BUT THIS INCLUDES ADAM AND EVE.


But, some (NOT ME) will claim that God cannot put such things in people's hearts -- in spite of the verses shown above. They will quote scripture where God says He does not desire the death of the wicked and, therefore, could not be purposely doing such a thing.

• "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord God. "Therefore, repent and live," (Ezekiel 18:32).
• "Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked . . . (Ezekiel 33:11).

We clearly see that God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. That is, it is not His desire that even the wicked die. Yet, they do and to further complicate things, as we have seen in the scriptures above, He even hardens them (Exo. 4:24-25; Rom. 9:18), deludes them (2 Thess. 2:11), and puts it into their hearts to rebel (Deut. 2:30; Rev. 17:16-17). And if that weren't enough, take a look at the following:

WELL, WHO IS DOING ALL THIS? WHO IS PULLING THE STRINGS? WE SEE GOD IN OPERATION WORKING EVERYTHING IN ACCORDANCE TO THE COUNSEL OF HIS WILL. IT MAY NOT BE HIS PLEASURE FOR SOMEONE TO DIE, BUT THAT EVENT WON'T OCCUR UNLESS HE WILLS IT. RECALL THAT SATAN WAS NOT ALLOWED TO KILL LOT.

• "And it shall come about that as the Lord delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the Lord will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you. . ." (Deut. 28:63).
  • The word "delight" here is the word "soos" in Hebrew and it means to exult, rejoice, display joy.
• "If one man sins against another, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the Lord, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death," (1 Sam. 2:25).
  • The words "desired" here is the same Hebrew word, "chaphets," used in Ezekiel 18:32 and 33:11 ("pleasure") above. It means "to delight in, take pleasure in, desire, be pleased with. It was the sons of Eli who would not listen to their father. Why? Because the Lord desired to put them to death. In other words, they would not listen because God desired to put them to death.
  • Likewise, the word "chaphets" occurs in Isaiah 53:10 where it says, "But the Lord was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief."
  • Quoted from http://www.carm.org/uni/allmensaved.htm
• HOW IS ANY OF THE ABOVE AN ARGUMENT THAT GOD'S WILL WAS NOT DONE? IT'S THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. GOD PROVIDES GOOD AND EVIL EXPERIENTALLY. THE ISRAELITES RECEIVED THE FRUITS OF OBEDIENCE AND BLESSING FOR BRIEF INTERLUDES. THEIR DISOBEDIENCE RESULTED IN THE CURSES OF THE LAW. BUT NOTE THAT IT WASN'T UNTIL THEY EXPERIENCED THE CURSES IN THE EXILE THAT THEY FINALLY WERE RID OF THEIR IDOLATROUS PRACTICES.

So as clearly shown (NOT SO), the belief that because it's God's will that all are saved is another false belief. NO, AGAIN, IT'S HIS STATED END PURPOSE TO BE THE ALL IN ALL, NOT THE ALL IN SOME (1 COR 15:28)

And error goes back even further than the 1st century. WELL, THAT CAN BE TRUE, BUT MY POINT WAS THAT UNIVERSALISM IS OF LONG STANDING, AND THE THEOLOGY OF ENDLESS TORMENT IS THE "JOHNNY COME LATELY", AS FLOATING AX MIGHT SAY.

 

[DeborahsSong]

This may be, but it fails to address the error in the belief that God's will is always fulfilled. God can and does use all things to fulfill His purpose, but God wills none to sin, as already shown earlier. So the argument that all are saved because God desires all to come to salvation does not mean all are saved.

PLEASE SEE THE POST I JUST MADE IN REGARD TO YOUR EARLIER COMMENTS. I WAS BEING LAZY AND HOPED THAT YOUR ARGUMENTS COULD BE ADDRESSED IN A GENERAL SENSE AND NOT LINE FOR LINE. I DO APPRECIATE THE EFFORT YOU MAKE TO BRING SCRIPTURE TO SUPPORT YOUR VIEWS. NOR DO YOU FLING EPHITHETS.

 

[enoch son]

It's over their heads my friend. The God of this world (self) has blinded there eyes to the God of everthing. Great post of the understanding of the ways of God and His ways. (It is written they aren't are ways)

 

[Floatingaxe]

It's over their heads my friend. The God of this world (self) has blinded there eyes to the God of everthing. Great post of the understanding of the ways of God and His ways. (It is written they aren't are ways)

God is clear. Those who do not believe and who purvey another Gospel message will not have their names written in the Book of what? LIFE! They will not see God--except for Judgment Day.

It is those who desire to remain drinking milk and who do not want to grow up who refuse to believe that God is who He says He is and not some pie-in-the-sky, by and by sugar plum fairy.

So sad.

 

[Svt4Him]

It's over their heads my friend. The God of this world (self) has blinded there eyes to the God of everthing. Great post of the understanding of the ways of God and His ways. (It is written they aren't are ways)

Wow, what an amazing post on so many levels. The God of this world is not self, it's the devil. And if you're saying that I am blinded because the clear teachings of the Bible can't be argued, then I agree, someone is blind. And no it is not written that God's ways aren't are [SIC] ways, unless you are taking one OT verse out of context. So do you have someone substantive to add or is it just these clouds with no rain in them? Otherwise you are simply saying the devil has blinded us because we don't believe like you. I'm rubber, you're glue, what ever you say bounces off me and sticks to you...or something like that.

 

[enoch son]

God is clear. Those who do not believe and who purvey another Gospel message will not have their names written in the Book of what? LIFE! They will not see God--except for Judgment Day.

It is those who desire to remain drinking milk and who do not want to grow up who refuse to believe that God is who He says He is and not some pie-in-the-sky, by and by sugar plum fairy.

So sad.

chapther and ver. please! As for pie in the sky I'm not the one waiting on a flase teaching of a rapture. It is written the earth belongs to the righteous.

 

[enoch son]

Wow, what an amazing post on so many levels. The God of this world is not self, it's the devil. And if you're saying that I am blinded because the clear teachings of the Bible can't be argued, then I agree, someone is blind. And no it is not written that God's ways aren't are [SIC] ways, unless you are taking one OT verse out of context. So do you have someone substantive to add or is it just these clouds with no rain in them? Otherwise you are simply saying the devil has blinded us because we don't believe like you. I'm rubber, you're glue, what ever you say bounces off me and sticks to you...or something like that.

Do you know what the word devil even means? Is the flesh not the one waring with the spirit? good grief!

 

[Floatingaxe]

chapther and ver. please! As for pie in the sky I'm not the one waiting on a flase teaching of a rapture. It is written the earth belongs to the righteous.

You deny all the scriptures I would use teaching us about God who is jealous and gets angry and judges sinners...so I won't waste my energy. Pie-in-the-sky is indeed what you believe about God.

 

[DeborahsSong]

If the teachings of the bible were clear, then we probably wouldn't have 91 pages on this topic alone. "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, to search out a matter is the glory of kings." Prov 25:2.

So, let us enjoy this search together.

 

[Floatingaxe]

If the teachings of the bible were clear, then we probably wouldn't have 91 pages on this topic alone. "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, to search out a matter is the glory of kings." Prov 25:2.

So, let us enjoy this search together.

The Bible is clear! Do you think God would send us a love message that is fuzzy and indistinct?

What is fuzzy is people's hearts and minds.

We must always, always ask the Holy Spirit to guide our minds and hearts in understanding of the Word before we read it. Always ask Him to send us good, gifted teachers to show us the truths of the Word. That is why He gifts people with teaching.

The reason why we have so many pages --and threads---on this is because people are believing that the word is unclear and they insist on living in the dark, and believe the first crazy theology that comes down the pike that makes them feel good--and when good theology comes around, they are unteachable and stiff-necked.

It's like feeding kids a diet of sugar and then hand them a spear of broccoli---watch the tantrum! a good diet of spiritual truth can be had by the study of the FULL WORD OF GOD and not only a few areas of study about God being all love and never wrathful. He is both of those things. He has a character that is full and broad in all traits, yet is perfect, and can be seen in Jesus Christ.

 

[enoch son]

The Bible is clear! Do you think God would send us a love message that is fuzzy and indistinct?

What is fuzzy is people's hearts and minds.

We must always, always ask the Holy Spirit to guide our minds and hearts in understanding of the Word before we read it. Always ask Him to send us good, gifted teachers to show us the truths of the Word. That is why He gifts people with teaching.

The reason why we have so many pages --and threads---on this is because people are believing that the word is unclear and they insist on living in the dark, and believe the first crazy theology that comes down the pike that makes them feel good--and when good theology comes around, they are unteachable and stiff-necked.

It's like feeding kids a diet of sugar and then hand them a spear of broccoli---watch the tantrum! a good diet of spiritual truth can be had by the study of the FULL WORD OF GOD and not only a few areas of study about God being all love and never wrathful. He is both of those things. He has a character that is full and broad in all traits, yet is perfect, and can be seen in Jesus Christ.

Interesting! You mean like the HE VEILS THERE MIND AND THERE HEARTS? Sounds fuzzy to me? 2 cor. 3;14-15

 

[enoch son]

You deny all the scriptures I would use teaching us about God who is jealous and gets angry and judges sinners...so I won't waste my energy. Pie-in-the-sky is indeed what you believe about God.

Let see here! Jesus said on the cross as He was dieing FATHER I'M RE [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] OFF KILL THEM ALL BECAUSE I'M JEALOUS AND ANGRY FRY ALL THEM SINNER FOREVER! thats funny my bible say's forgive them.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Interesting! You mean like the HE VEILS THERE MIND AND THERE HEARTS? Sounds fuzzy to me? 2 cor. 3;14-15

If the rose-coloured glasses fit, you ought to not wear them...

Interesting. You see the truth in my post and this is all you can say?

 

[Floatingaxe]

Let see here! Jesus said on the cross as He was dieing FATHER I'M RE [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] OFF KILL THEM ALL BECAUSE I'M JEALOUS AND ANGRY FRY ALL THEM SINNER FOREVER! thats funny my bible say's forgive them.

He wasn't talking about us. He was being specific about certain people who were committing murder there, and publically jeering Him.

You are responsible for your own repentance or NOT.




(Why did you use profanity?)

 

[Svt4Him]

Let see here! Jesus said on the cross as He was dieing FATHER I'M RE [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] OFF KILL THEM ALL BECAUSE I'M JEALOUS AND ANGRY FRY ALL THEM SINNER FOREVER! thats funny my bible say's forgive them.

Too funny. Nothing to do with their sin in this, only your definition of God being selfish eh? God's angry so He punishes sin? How about God's loving, so He provided a way for those who deserve hell to be saved...no, better to make it based on this gods sick whims.

 

[DeborahsSong]

He wasn't talking about us. He was being specific about certain people who were committing murder there, and publically jeering Him.

Since He was willing to forgive those committing murder and publically jeering Him, doesn' t it stand to reason that He's willing to forgive all?

Paul also speaks of Jews who were enemies of the gospel: "And so all Israel shall be saved....For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Ro 11:26-29)

You are responsible for your own repentance or NOT.

I have found no scriptural support for this statement. Acts 5:31. Acts 11:18, and 2 Tim 2:25 all state that God gives repentance.

In regard to repentance, we again see the knowledge of good and evil (calamity) at work. Ro 2:4 declares "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? That's God using positive (carrot) reinforcement to achieve his will.

Contrast it with the knowledge of evil (calamity). Paul tells the Corinthians that "...ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorryworketh repentance to salvation...." 2 Cor 7:9-10. Consider also what our Lord says: " Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tributlation, except they repent of their deeds" Rev 2:22. This demonstrates a range of negative (stick)reinforcement.

Whether by carrot or by stick, each of us is brought to repentance. It's God's responsibility.

Why did you use profanity?)

Perhaps, Enoch Son was using the rhetorical devices of hyperbole and sarcasm.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Being willing to forgive all doesn't mean He will. Repentance is what initiates it. Not everyone will ever come to repentance.

Without Godly sorrow, you have a hardened heart that will not repent. God leads us, but we have to do it.

 

[Faulty]

Being willing to forgive all doesn't mean He will. Repentance is what initiates it. Not everyone will ever come to repentance.

One part they seem to be forgetting is that there is a second part of that sentence.

Lk:23:34 "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

There is that whole "for they know not what they do" part that shows His remark was not all inclusive because the forgiveness was only due to their ignorance.

Matthew 27:3-6 states, "Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood."

Both Judas and the priests knew exactly what they were doing, and that was the shedding of innocent blood.