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Is Everybody going to heaven?

Will everyone go to heaven?

  • Yes: Hell does not exist

  • Yes: Hell does exist but it is not permenant (God will rehab every soul)

  • No:There is a literal hell and those who go there never come back

  • I don't have an opinion / undecided


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Floatingaxe

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In addition to my earlier post on 1 Cor 15:22, which was basically a quote from Barnes' Notes on the Greek construction, I'd add this thought: For Christ to be deserving of the title "last Adam", there must be an inclusion of all in "first Adam". If not, it would be akin to saying "lower case alphabet", and "upper case alphabet", and leaving most of the letters out of the latter. With letters missing, it wouldn't be an alphabet.

The biggest difficulty with UR adherents is that they fall into this category that Paul describes. They miss out on the Spirit of the letter, and focus on the letter itself and its construction, no less! So sad...

1 Timothy 6:4
Anyone who teaches something different is arrogant and lacks understanding. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions.
 
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brinny

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Re: post #481

Aah my sister...exactly...such a seemingly small thing, yet heaven and hell rest on it.....that's why the gate is called narrow....it is that obedience, and knowing His voice, and knowing Him....and we, like sheep, know when it is not His voice we are hearing.....

those who have ears listen....
 
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Floatingaxe

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Another question....

If everyone goes to heaven eventually....what about those who don't belong to God? Referring to the parable of the wheat and the Tares here. Remember the wheat are sown by God and the tares are sown by the enemy...and the tares are destroyed in fire NOT refined.

Exactly! They are worthless and thrown into the furnace and destroyed.
 
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Floatingaxe

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Question to those who don't believe all go to heaven. What is the fate of those who don't? If the tares are all burnt up, then how can there be endless torment? Or If there is endless torment, how are the wicked destroyed? Or can they be both simultaneously destroyed and tormented forever?

The body resurrected is perpetually destroyed, yet never consumed, endlessly in torment. It is a spiritual body we receive when we are all raised to face God. Our flesh cannot withstand His glory. It would disintegrate!

Christians' glorified bodies live on with Him, while unbelievers' bodies are cast into punishment, never consumed and never free from torment.
 
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DeborahsSong

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Oh, by the way, in Matt 13:38 (tares parable) where the KJV has "the field is the world", the word used for "world" is kosmos. In vs 39, it's our old friend aion. Yes, the same word that those holding to endless torment insist means "eternity". If the translators hadn't pulled the swith, the KJV would have "...the harvest is the end of eternity"! Likewise, in vs 40 "world" is again, aion, "...So shall it be at the end of this world" would become "...So shall it be at the end of this eternity"

The Greek text states the harvest referenced in vs 40 is the end of "this age." Jesus is warning of what will soon come upon the Jewish nation in 70 AD. "This age" was coming to an end with his death and resurrection.
 
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Floatingaxe

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Oh, by the way Matt in 13:38 where the KJV has "the field is the world", the word used for "world" is our old friend aion. Yes, the same word that those holding to endless torment insists means "eternity". Even worse is verse 39. "...the harvest is the end of the world" the word for world is, again, aion. So, if the translators hadn't pulled the switch, the KJV would have "the harvest is the end of eternity"!

The Greek text states the harvest referenced here is the end of "this age." Jesus is warning of what will soon come upon the Jewish nation in 70 AD. "This age" was coming to an end with his death and resurrection.

By the way?

ohmy.jpg
 
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HEisGoodalways

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There are always those people who object to this truth on the grounds that the preaching of universal salvation will make Christians and unsaved careless. I can hear the unbelieving say, "If I believed that all men were to be saved eventually, I would just go out in the world and enjoy myself. What is the use of going through all these things we have to endure, if we're going to be saved in the end anyway?" Such ridiculous talk only reveals the true inner condition of the one who makes such as assertion. it shows that he has no true love for God, but is serving Him only out of fear of going to hell, as a slave in fear of a tyrant. If such a person had the fear of hell removed from him it is obvious that he would promptly tell God to go to hell and then proceed to drown himself in devilish pleasures and fleshly pursuits. I have no hesitation in saying that any man who says that if all are going to be saved in the end we might as well eat, drink, and be merry, is a devil at heart, and convicts himself by his own words. If the wages of sin were removed, he would immediately go out and begin to live it up in the world, serving both the flesh and the devil. He has no love for God at all, and is the most contemptible of hypocrites.
If your heart is that much inclined to the world and your love for God is no greater, then you better go back into the world. People who want to live careless will always find an excuse to be careless and they will have to suffer the result of their carelessness both now and in the day of judgment. The knowledge of God's gracious purpose does not make true men of God careless. It makes them long to become a part of His will and an instrument in His plan of the ages. We can embrace every travail in understanding, grace, and love, when we clearly see it is working for eternal good according to His purpose which He purposed in Christ before the ages began.
Some press the issue further and raise the question, "If sinners hear that all will be saved eventually, won't that cause them to relax and live more carelessly?" To which I reply, Has the doctrine of eternal torture kept men from backsliding? Has it turned the world to God? Has it made the streets in your city safe to walk at night? Has it kept the Christians from growing spiritually cold, or from committing disgraceful sins? Has it prevented Churches from becoming worldly, or sinking into apostasy? It has not! If anyone thinks to use their service to God as a fire escape, He will not accept it. Our service must be because we love Him. Everything He did for us was because He loved us, and He will accept nothing less from us. "The love of Christ constrains us" (11 Cor. 5:14). He does not want what we have; He wants us; our heart and affection. And sinners need to discover the love of God in Christ, and be brought to truly love Him. Let us consider these things, and cry mightily unto God to deliver our minds from all prejudice and preconceived ideas and distorted notions, for it is possible He still has truth He has not revealed to us!
Some time ago the following questions were presented to me. "Why preach and teach the Gospel if all are to be saved ultimately? There is no need to witness for they will be saved someday, someway, somewhere - right?" W-R-O-N-G! First, the Christian life is so rich and beautiful and worthwhile that it would be the only life to live, even if there were no hereafter. Ask those who have truly known and experienced Christ over a period of years. Was it not Dr. A. J. Gordon who met an old crippled man on the street, and asked him why, with all his handicap, his face was nevertheless so bright and shining? And the old man answered, "The devil has no happy old men!"
Furthermore, God will never save your loved ones, your neighbors, or any other person who has ever lived or who ever shall live apart from a MEANS, an INSTRUMENT THROUGH WHICH TO REACH THEM. And WE are that instrument! God declares to His elect in Isa. 49:6, "I will also GIVE YOU for a light to the nations, that YOU may BE MY SALVATION unto the end of the earth." The method by which God causes men to believe is revealed in Rom. 10:14-15. "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not BELIEVED? and how shall they BELIEVE in Him of whom they have not HEARD? and how shall they HEAR without a PREACHER? and how shall they PREACH except they be SENT?" Does the salvation of all men negate this procedure? NO WAY! It only intensifies it! The simple truth is that God purposes to save all men. The means by which He shall accomplish this is A PEOPLE, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, the SONS OF GOD, who are made ONE with the PRIESTLY MINISTRY OF JESUS the great HIGH PRIEST, to intercede, witness, speak, exhort, warn, entreat, preach, and proclaim the redemptive power of the Christ until this ministry conquers all men for God.
Ah - does the fact that God will have all men to be saved mean that it is meaningless to WITNESS, to PREACH? A thousand times no! "It pleased God by the foolishness of PREACHING to save them that believe" (I Cor. 1:21). So we cannot preach less, we must not witness less, armed now with the hope that the preaching will ultimately BEAR FRUIT we shall preach MORE THAN EVER BEFORE, for this is one of God's MEANS of salvation! Those who should really give up witnessing to their loved ones, and preaching to the lost are those who believe most of them will burn for ever in hell anyway! What on earth could be more worthless, unprofitable, vain, disturbing and disappointing than witnessing and preaching to men when we actually believe that only a small fraction of them will ever be saved? Why bother? To what end all the labor? The devil gets most of them in the end anyhow!
We who know that God will have all men to be saved are really the only people on earth who have REAL PURPOSE in ministering to the lost. Praise God! He has committed unto us the MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION. Now comes the word: "And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and has given UNTO US THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION; to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling T-H-E W-O-R-L-D unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has COMMITTED UNTO US THE WORD OF RECONCILIATION. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: WE PRAY YOU IN CHRIST'S STEAD, BE RECONCILED UNTO GOD" (11 Cor. 5:18-20). The apostle shows how it is that God was in Christ reconciling NOT THE CHURCH, NOT THE SAINTS, NOT JUST BELIEVERS, but T-H-E W-O-R-L-D unto Himself, and now has given the MINISTRY BY WHICH THIS RECONCILIATION IS TO BE EFFECTED ... unto us! "We pray you in Christ's stead." Not witness to our loved ones because they will be saved anyway? Not preach to the unconverted because they will be saved in the end? The very idea is absurd, a complete contradiction of terms! Because God has made blessed provision for their salvation IS W-H-Y WE WITNESS! On the contrary, to witness and witness and witness to vast numbers of people who will NEVER BE SAVED would be an effort in futility. If I believed that nonsense, then I really might STOP PREACHING!
Will believing that God is the Saviour of all men do away with evangelistic fervor and zeal? Only in men who hold a carnal knowledge of the doctrine in their intellect, but have no deep revelation of the truth of it in their hearts. It did not affect the apostle Paul in this manner. On the contrary it increased his fervor and zeal. Paul states it clearly and emphatically, "For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men" (I Tim. 4:10). After many years of ministry, being, by the grace of God, an instrument of God to help a great many people in the deep spiritual, psychical, and physical needs of their lives, I testify that I know of no greater joy on earth than the joy of seeing people receive Christ as their own Saviour and Lord. Just ask anyone who has led some person to the Lord, what is the greatest joy he knows. He will not be slow in telling you. Or try it yourself!
The fact that we see and appreciate God's great and wonderful plan for all men leaves no room in us for a dilatory, DON'T CARE spirit. The elect of God are always conscious of their unique calling. We are given the high honor of being "laborers together with God." Some day when the last devil has been subjected, and the last sinner broken in humility and contrition at the lovely feet of Jesus, we shall realize, as we may not now, just how great that honor really is, and how much we have missed if we fail to share in this task to which the Almighty has set His hand.
I must confess that I am deeply grieved in my spirit when I meet these would-be Sons of God who look with contempt upon those who still have a passion for souls and desire to see men delivered from the power of the devil. I am aware of the fact that the hour has not yet arrived when God shall deal with all nations, and multitudes of past generations, to bring forth His salvation in them, but it is my deepest conviction that one of the sure marks of sonship is THE SPIRIT OF RECONCILIATION. Why speak of our great hope of what God shall do in the ages to come if THE SPIRIT OF THAT HOPE is not now alive in our hearts? It is not the doctrine of reconciliation that shall change the world, but the MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION. The ministry of reconciliation springs from the spirit of reconciliation. If you would not walk across the street to see some poor soul delivered and converted by the redeeming power of Christ, don't waste your time relating to me how you are chosen of God to help in the delivering of the whole creation from the bondage of sin and death. The Spirit of Reconciliation must reign within our hearts. The Ministry of Reconciliation must issue forth from our lives. Rivers of Living Water must, even now, pour forth out of our innermost being, bringing hope and victory and life to all who will come and drink! Amen!
 
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Floatingaxe

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I believe that many UR adherents are unsaved. The others who may be, are simply buying into lies and are limiting their growth in Christ. The Holy Spirit will not stand by and be grieved in the denial of His Word and of His character, and the mockery of the Atonement.
 
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brinny

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all who will come and drink!

amen Heisgoodalways. It is at that moment that we choose to die to self and bow to the Lord Jesus Christ, giving Him the reins of our life, and loving Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and repent, that we are given living water that we are so desperate for.

Alas, not all will come and drink.
 
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Cassidy

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I believe that many UR adherents are unsaved. The others who may be, are simply buying into lies and are limiting their growth in Christ. The Holy Spirit will not stand by and be grieved in the denial of His Word and of His character, and the mockery of the Atonement.

That may very well be, but I'd rather save that judgement for God. I lived false doctrine while I was growing up and I KNOW that I was still saved...so there is hope for them, even if it is false doctrine.

I just find it interesting that some of what they are claiming can actually be backed by scripture! I also find the aion thing interesting also, since I was brought up using the concordance and finding the correct translation for lots of things. If aion, is in fact the correct translation (and I'm not saying it is) then that would put a whole new slant on a lot of the scriptures in revelation that referr to 'eternity'.

Now having said all that, that's not to say that I believe it...I don't know until I, myself, have examined these things. I've learned a long time ago to never EVER rely on man's interpretation of the word. It would be so easy to dismiss their claims and call them liars based on the teachings that I have received all my life...but I've done that before and been proven a fool for doing so. So I don't do that anymore!

Instead I will listen and examine it myself and refrain from making judgements until I am certain that, what they are claiming, is false doctrine. Meanwhile I lean more towards the calvinist side a tad anyway, but that's not definete either.

All I know is that if I believe in Jesus then I will be saved....and I know that for certain, and if I hold onto that, then I can't go wrong. What God plans are for the dead or whatever make no never minds to the fact that one MUST believe in Christ to go to heaven. What God has planned will be no matter what we believe.
 
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DeborahsSong

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Cassidy, I did edit the tares post, since I was off a verse, the aions are in vs 39, 40. Kosmos is in vs 38. Yes, the tares were destroyed. It was a terrible time. Many people died horrible deaths, but Christians escaped. Both Jesus and John the Baptist gave warnings of the impending judgment, and Jesus was anguished for Jerusalem.

I just took a look at the passage in Matt 23:37-39. Looks like they will get a second chance. "You shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say 'blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'"
 
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Cassidy

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Ok I'm just a tad confused here. As far as I'm aware the wheat and the tares parable isn't about a particular time...it's about us and the end of the world. So the fact that God sowed the wheat and the enemy sowed the tares..that leads me to the conclusion that the wheat (all of the wheat) belong to God and the tares belong to the evil one. Then at harvest time, they are both reaped, but the wheat is kept and the tares are destroyed. end parable. I don't see a second chance for the tares here since they are burned up in the fire and are just ash now.
 
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HEisGoodalways

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amen Heisgoodalways. It is at that moment that we choose to die to self and bow to the Lord Jesus Christ, giving Him the reins of our life, and loving Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and repent, that we are given living water that we are so desperate for.

Alas, not all will come and drink.

Rev 22:2 Between the city street and the river, the tree of life was visible from each side. It produced twelve kinds of fruit, each month having its own fruit. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

We are tree's of righteuosness, the first fruit company, for the healing of all nation's

HIM inside and through us:clap:

Love to all:groupray:
 
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brinny

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Originally Posted by brinny
amen Heisgoodalways. It is at that moment that we choose to die to self and bow to the Lord Jesus Christ, giving Him the reins of our life, and loving Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and repent, that we are given living water that we are so desperate for.

Alas, not all will come and drink.

Rev 22:2 Between the city street and the river, the tree of life was visible from each side. It produced twelve kinds of fruit, each month having its own fruit. The leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

We are tree's of righteuosness, the first fruit company, for the healing of all nation's

HIM inside and through us:clap:

Love to all:groupray:

my dear man, yes, it is a wonderful reality.....however, this is the tragedy...

not all will come and drink.
 
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Yekcidmij

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I will call you Josephus from now on in honor of the famous Jewish historian. Why? Because like him, you too write lots of words with no indentions or breaks in the text. Thank goodness for punctuation!:)

First, the Christian life is so rich and beautiful and worthwhile that it would be the only life to live, even if there were no hereafter. Ask those who have truly known and experienced Christ over a period of years.

Yea. The first christians had an absolute blast with it. Except for the one slave girl who had molten lead poured down her throat. And except for a few who were mauled and mangled by wild beasts. And except for the few who were crucified. And except for the few that were stoned. And except for the ones who were persecuted by Hindus just earlier this week. Yea, I'm sure their words would be "rich" and "beautiful". Yea. mmm hmm. Christianity is just a great big party where you leave feeling good about everything!


"It pleased God by the foolishness of PREACHING to save them that believe" (I Cor. 1:21).

Interesting verse, does that verse mean all accept the truth of the preaching? Does that even mean all are preached to?



I appreaciate your post, but telling everyone that the reason you should believe in God is because it is either right, because you love him, or because He is simply God is telling most of us stuff we already know. Telling people they should spread the gospel regardless of what God chooses to do is also stating the obvious. Our intentions should be to love God and our neighbor. Regardless of the reasons and intentions for loving God and loving our neighbor, you obviously refuse to engage the text. Not everyone is raised from the dead. The text is clear. I'm sorry you disagree with it to the point of trying to write your own scripture. You might as well just break off from the New Testament at this point and become something else. I suggest you become Gnostic, Mormon, or Hindu.


God is Just
God is a Warrior


Some people are going to be in for it one day. Nobody can make you believe it. God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy - and that doesn't include everyone. Tough cookie, too bad.
 
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DeborahsSong

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Cassidy, vs 39 in the Greek states that the parable relates to the age, aion. Vs 40 further qualifies it as "this age", that is the time at which Jesus was speaking. He is discussing the fate of the Jewish people of that age and it was physical death and distress for those who had not repented at the teachings of John the Baptist and of Jesus. This was when the Romans came in and destroyed the temple, and slaughtered the Jews, a horrible time.

In the passage where Jesus cries over Jerusalem, it stuck me that, though those in the city would perish (as tares) in 70 AD, they would have a chance after physical death to say "blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord." He also says that they won't get to see him till they do. He's clearly talking about the current residents because he longed to gather them to himself, but they would have none of it. It's an interesting passage, and deserves more attention.

Have you thought about getting a Greek interlinear? You'll have the English literal translation right under the Greek word. I would recommend one that has Strongs numbers above the Greek word. That way you can quickly jump to Strongs or a word study that uses his numbers. Interlinears also tend to come with other translations on the side. You'll have the Greek, the literal and 1 or 2 others, all neatly arranged. In this way you won't have to hear from others what the original text has, you can check it out for yourself.

Check out Amazon where you can get descriptions of the interlinears. Books can be ordered new or used from approved dealers.

If you are really interested in aion, go to tentmaker.org (disclosure: it is a Christian universalist website). On the search, type in aion. There are a number of scholarly articles that discuss it's use even going back to the classical Greek writers and on through to the time of Jesus, Josephus and Philo. They also discuss in detail how its meaning began to be distorted around the time of Augustine, and how these distortions became part of our English texts.
 
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