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Since just about anyone can find a scholar that agrees with them, I generally don't use that approach in debates.As already stated, the response is selective, as there are many who disagree with the belief it's only for a time, and I have shown again and again there are verses that it doesn't make sense to show it as meaning for a time. Dr. V Von Heisensnoot III, the world renown Greek scholar agrees with me. I just throw out that appeal to authority just in case it's needed.
And it deserves to be gone over again because her response, and indeed all responses about this, have been selective at best. The reasonings behind the responses have been flimsy and amount to nothing more than a "because I or some guy none of us have ever heard of say so" answer, and yet an entire doctrine is being built on this foundation.
I've been watching this thread, and you're right, there are a lot of areas being gone over time and time again. I think part of the reason is because there is too much on this thread that people don't want to spend a few hours reading it all, but part is because the people asking questing are ending up with answers that just won't hold water.
What's sad is that I don't think those providing these responses are recognizing how flimsy they really are. Reminds me of political-speak, bold words and little substance. There is no 'meat' here to be found here.
As already stated, the response is selective, as there are many who disagree with the belief it's only for a time, and I have shown again and again there are verses that it doesn't make sense to show it as meaning for a time. Dr. V Von Heisensnoot III, the world renown Greek scholar agrees with me. I just throw out that appeal to authority just in case it's needed.
Quoted from http://www.stempublishing.com/author...NE/31003E.htmlI will now quote various passages of Scripture to shew aion or aionios has the definite meaning of "for ever," or "eternal," in English. No one who has examined its use in Greek questions that it is used for life, or the whole period of a man's existence till he breathes his last; nor that it may be used for ages or periods, looked at as a whole. The question is, Does it not properly mean eternal or for ever, and that where age and age-long would have no sense? Thus Matthew 21: 19, of the fig-tree: Let no fruit grow on thee eis ton aiona. "For the age" has no sense. It never was to grow. So Mark 11: 14. That eternity is not grasped by man as a definite idea is true, because definite is finite, and man, being finite, cannot grasp what is in-finite. It is known only as that which is absolutely; or negatively as that to which end is denied.Again, Mark 3: 29, oik echei aphesin eis ton aiona. What age? It is not in the age, as some have fraudulently translated it, but "has not ever forgiveness." It is not any particular age; the eis allows no such sense, and the ton would require some particular age, which even so would leave no sense to eis. It can only mean here "for ever." There was a present age and age to come, o aion outos, and o aion o mellon, and well known to the Jews, the olem hazeh, and the olem havo; and an increased measure of forgiveness was looked for in Messiah's age. This sin could be forgiven in neither; no additional increase of forgiveness was looked for beyond Messiah; and each measure belonged to its own age; it was not a prolonged process, but what occurred in each as proper to it. But eis ton aiona, can only mean "for ever," though "for ever" may be used metaphorically when there is no withdrawal of the gift or promise, and the effect cannot last longer than that to which it applies. The gift has no limit (it is, as Aristotle says, apeiria), the existence of that to which it applies may. I do not lend it, I give it for ever; yet what I give, or the person to whom it is given, may cease to exist; but the gift is for ever, without repentance, out and out.128 So John 4: 14, shall not thirst "for the age": is that the meaning? or never? John 6: 51, 58, "live for ever"; John 10: 28, not perish "to the age": is that the sense? John 13: 8, thou shalt not wash my feet "to the age!" A multitude more may be quoted to the same effect; some with the modified sense I have spoken of above of absolute gift and calling never to be retracted. But eis ton aiona never means "to the age" in any case.Take 1 Peter 1: 23, 25, logou zontos theou kai menontos eis ton aiona. Does it last only "to the age" (applying it to the logon, not to theou as some do)? So verse 25, rema menei eis ton aiona. So 2 John 2, the truth shall be with us "to the age!" So Jude 13, wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness eis ton aiona. Here again "to the age" has no sense.
This is most interesting! I will warn you that because of your place in the body christian will take a outlook of hate at you if you come to the understanding GOD IS LOVE. How dare God love the whole creation of His son? Wait one second He say's that somewhere? John 3;16 I think. Most interesting post! BE WISE!The main objection I hear to our evangelical/fundamentalist/literalist interpretation of hell is that it is overkill. The idea that God would not only punish the wickedincluding the guy who loves his wife and children, works hard, gives to the poor but who has never accepted Jesus as his personal savior (i.e., never walked the aisle or raised his hand for salvation like we are supposed to do), right along with Hitler and Stalinbut is going to be tortured endlessly, painfully, night and day, on and on, forever and ever, ages upon ages for something he failed to do in this brief snap of the fingers we call life, simply does not compute with the Apostle Johns repeated statement that God is love.
In a recent discussion with a friend (a believer in Christ, incidentally) who is struggling with the idea of hell, he said to me, I can understand that love may discipline, even punish, a wrongdoer, but love does not torture themforever.
Nothing I said to the contrary was convincing to him and I have to admit, he has made me take another look at the metaphors the Bible uses for hell. At the moment, I am convinced only that hell, whatever and wherever it is, is a horrible place I would not want anyone to be.
~Jim
When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain? ~Bob Dylan, 1979
The main objection I hear to our evangelical/fundamentalist/literalist interpretation of hell is that it is overkill. The idea that God would not only punish the wickedincluding the guy who loves his wife and children, works hard, gives to the poor but who has never accepted Jesus as his personal savior (i.e., never walked the aisle or raised his hand for salvation like we are supposed to do), right along with Hitler and Stalinbut is going to be tortured endlessly, painfully, night and day, on and on, forever and ever, ages upon ages for something he failed to do in this brief snap of the fingers we call life, simply does not compute with the Apostle Johns repeated statement that God is love.
In a recent discussion with a friend (a believer in Christ, incidentally) who is struggling with the idea of hell, he said to me, I can understand that love may discipline, even punish, a wrongdoer, but love does not torture themforever.
Nothing I said to the contrary was convincing to him and I have to admit, he has made me take another look at the metaphors the Bible uses for hell. At the moment, I am convinced only that hell, whatever and wherever it is, is a horrible place I would not want anyone to be.
~Jim
When you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain? ~Bob Dylan, 1979
So Jesus blood was to small to cover the creation you say?John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,but whoever rejects the Son will not see the life, for God"s wrath remains on him.
God's only covering from sin is through Jesus and when you don't accept him as savior you are rejecting God. Then nothing will save you from his wrath. We are all without excuse. When standing in front of God at judgement he'll ask this "good family man" why he didn't accept Jesus when he could and the man will say I didn't think it was important enough and God will say well I don't think you're important enough, be gone.
If a god's ability to save man is only as good as man's ability to accept that salvation, then that god is too small.John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,but whoever rejects the Son will not see the life, for God"s wrath remains on him.
God's only covering from sin is through Jesus and when you don't accept him as savior you are rejecting God. Then nothing will save you from his wrath. We are all without excuse. When standing in front of God at judgement he'll ask this "good family man" why he didn't accept Jesus when he could and the man will say I didn't think it was important enough and God will say well I don't think you're important enough, be gone.
What a breath of fesh air!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!If a god's ability to save man is only as good as man's ability to accept that salvation, then that god is too small.
.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,but whoever rejects the Son will not see the life, for God"s wrath remains on him.
God's only covering from sin is through Jesus and when you don't accept him as savior you are rejecting God. Then nothing will save you from his wrath. We are all without excuse. When standing in front of God at judgement he'll ask this "good family man" why he didn't accept Jesus when he could and the man will say I didn't think it was important enough and God will say well I don't think you're important enough, be gone.
If a god's ability to save man is only as good as man's ability to accept that salvation, then that god is too small.
.
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