Is Ethical relativism intellegent? I say NO.

Phred

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charlesseamanj said:
The correct translation of the word is not "kill" it is "murder". So that arguement has no logical founding.
And you invalidate your own argument. If a commandment is dependent upon the reader's definition of murder then this is not an absolute.
 
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Phred

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charlesseamanj said:
Your comment concerning matter existing in certian places at one time is a prime example as to why people like you never see beond the the phisicial.
You are trying to use the laws of nature to explain the laws of the Spirit. The laws of the Spirit created the laws of nature. That is why the one in the Spirit has a more compleet knoledge of the sciences of this modern world.
More foolishness. There is no evidence that a "spiritual" anything even exists. The laws of nature are there for us to examine. Your "spiritual laws" are only there for YOU to examine. I'm sorry, but you're not exactly what I'd call and unimpeachable source.
 
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Phred

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charlesseamanj said:
As for the ones who carried out the action, they were just following a command from God. It was a war.
So if God tells me to I can kill you and face no punishment? The non-absolute part here is you interpreting what you think God is telling you.
 
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charlesseamanj

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z3ro said:
Let me try and rephrase this; if humans stopped existing, matter could still not exist in the same space/time as other matter. That is because we are just observing things. If humans stopped existing, it would no longer be "evil" to kill another person. See, not absolute.
So as long as humans exist, it will be wrong for one to murder another. So their is an absolute for humans as long as they exist.
 
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charlesseamanj

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Is Ethical relativism intellegent? I say NO.



Ethical relativism is the position that there are no moral absolutes, no moral right and wrongs. Instead, right and wrong are based on social norms. Some have heard of the term situational ethics which is a category of ethical relativism. At any rate, ethical relativism would mean that our morals have evolved, that they have changed over time, and that they are not absolute.
One advantage of ethical relativism is that it allows for a wide variety of cultures and practices. It also allows people to adapt ethically as the culture, knowledge, and technology change in society. This is good and a valid form of relativism.
The disadvantage of ethical relativism is that truth, right and wrong, and justice are all relative. Just because the group of people thinks that something is right does not make so. Slavery is a good example of this. Two hundred years ago in America, slavery was the norm and morally acceptable. Now it is not.
Relativism also does not allow for the existence of an absolute set of ethics. Logically, if there are not absolute ethics, then there can be no Divine Absolute Ethics Giver. Requiring an absolute set ethics implies an Absolute Ethics Giver which can easily be extrapolated as being God. This would be opposed to ethical relativism. Therefore, ethical relativism would not support the idea of an absolute God and it would exclude religious systems based upon absolute morals; that is, it would be absolute in its condemnation of absolute ethics. In this, relativism would be inconsistent since it would deny beliefs of absolute values.
Furthermore, if ethics have changed overtime there is the problem of self contradiction within the relativistic perspective. 200 years ago slavery was socially acceptable and correct. Now it is not. There has been a change in social ethics in America regarding this issue. The problem is that if slavery becomes acceptable again in the next 200 years, who is to say if it is right or wrong? We would have a contradictory set of right and wrong regarding the same issue. To this I ask the question, does truth contradict itself?
Within ethical relativism, right and wrong are not absolute and must be determined in society by a combination of observation, logic, social preferences and patterns, experience, emotions, and "rules" that seem to bring the most benefit. Of course, it goes without saying that a society involved in constant moral conflict would not be able to survive for very long. Morality is the glue that holds a society together. There must be a consensus of right and wrong for a society to function well. Ethical relativism undermines that glue.
It seems to be universal among cultures that it is wrong to murder, to steal, and to lie. We see that when individuals practice these counterproductive ethics, they are soon in prison and/or punished. Since ethics are conceptual in nature and there are some ethics that seem to transcend all cultures (be true for all societies) I conclude that there is a transcendent God who has authored these ethics -- but that is another discussion.
I do not believe that the best ethical patterns discovered by which societies operate (honesty, fidelity, truth, no theft, no murder, etc.) are the product of our biological makeup or trial and error. As a Christian, I see them as a reflection of God’s very character. They are a discovery of the rules God has established by which people best interact with people because He knows how He has designed them. The 10 commandments are a perfect example of moral absolutes and have yet to be improved upon. They are transcendent; that is, they transcend social norms and are always true.
I was once challenged to prove that there were moral absolutes. I took up the challenge with the following argument. I asked the gentleman whether or not there were logical absolutes. For example, I asked if it was a logical absolute that something could exist and also not exist at the same time. He said, no that it was not possible. Another example is that something cannot bring itself into existence. To this he agreed that there were indeed logical absolutes. I then asked him to explain how logical absolutes can exist if there is no God. I questioned him further by asking him to tell me how in a purely physical universe logical absolutes, which are by nature conceptual, can exist. I said, they cannot be measured, put in the test tube, weighed, nor captured; yet, they exist. So, I asked him to please tell me how these conceptual absolute truths can exist in a purely physical universe...without a God. He could not answer me. I then went on to say that these conceptual absolutes logically must exist in the mind of an absolute God because they cannot merely reside in the properties of matter in a purely naturalistic universe. And since the logical absolutes are true everywhere all the time and they are conceptual, it would seem logical that they exist within a transcendent, omnipresent, being. If there is an absolute God with an absolute mind then he is the standard of all things – as well as morals. Therefore, there would be moral absolutes. To this argument the gentleman chuckled, said he had never heard it before, and conceded that it may be possible for moral absolutes to exist.
Of course, as a Christian, as one who believes in the authority and inspiration of the Bible, I consider moral absolutes to be very real because they come from God and not because they somehow reside in a naturalistic universe.
Ethics are important in society, in the home, and in all interactions. Would you believe me if I started lying to you in this paper? No. You expect me to be fair, honest, logical, and forthright. Can I be that if I believe all ethics are relative? Heck, if I did, I could try and deceive you into getting me to believe what I want you to.
:CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY:
 
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FSTDT

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Cerberus,

Cerberus~ said:
Is it wrong to swat a fly?
Most people care about animals because they can suffer, and because the animals have an interest in continued existence.

However, there is a basic consensus that flies have neither of these things: they cannot suffer, nor do they have any interest in continued existence, so it is not wrong to swat a fly. (There are probably good environmental reasons to avoid extinguishing all flies from the planet, however.)
 
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charlesseamanj

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Flys have a reason to exist, so I would not say it is wise to extinguish all of them.
But weather it is wrong to kill one, I do not have any non-biblicial answer. My biblicial answer is , no it is not wrong. The reason is because the whole earth and everything in it was given to man.
 
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FSTDT

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Charlesseamanj,

Could you please, please, put linebreaks between your text. And also, if you want to copy-and-paste an entire article from the internet, please site sources. Your above post came from http://www.carm.org/relativism/ethical.htm

And there are serious problems with your text. Take this for example:
Requiring an absolute set ethics implies an Absolute Ethics Giver which can easily be extrapolated as being God.
I'm sorry, but this is simply laughable. The author has obviously never heard of Categorical imperatives, utilitarian calculations, both of which are a set of absolute ethics that do not require God.

Even more, the author has provided no reason to believe that absolute ethics needs to come from an "absolute ethics giver". As long as you are going to copy and paste your posts word-for-word, I feel obligated to do the same thing:
Kantian imperatives are an example of absolute morality that can exist in a godless universe.

But, aside from that, the Bible is not a source of moral absolutes, especially in light of the number of other holy books with a competing set of moral absolutes. It really begs to the question to single out the Bible among all other holy books in the world as the only one that claims to have a handle on absolute morality.

And, you should keep in mind that the Bible has been used to defend every moral good and moral atrocity. The Bible has played an equally relevant role in motivating the Crusades and Third Reich, just as it played a role in motivating Mother Theresa and humanitarian missions in Africa. It works like this: when someone says they believe something is right, they try to take the moral highground and claim that God agrees with them. "I believe woman shouldnt vote, and God agrees with me", "I believe schools should be segregated, and God agrees with me", "I believe abortion is wrong, and God agrees with me". Do you see where I'm going with this?

Because so many people claim to know what God wants, but people have disagreements about the things that God wants, you find yourself in a position where Bible-based morals are nothing more than expressions of peoples personal opinions and prejudices. Its moral relativism masqurading as the will of God.

(And besides, if morality really does come from God, what does God base it on? If its something outside of his own personal opinions, then however God reasons can be achieved by any theist or atheist alike, meaning morality has an objective component outside of the will of God. And if it doesnt, then theists are no worse off than atheists in terms of providing objective reasons to justify their actions.)

And the notion of an "absolute ethics giver" has been outdated sense the time of Plato, when he authored his famous Euthyphro posing the following dilemma: Does God disapprove of sin because it is bad or is sin bad because God disapproves of it? On the first interpretation of the dilemma theists can provide objective reasons for not sinning, but so can atheists. On the second interpretation, theists can provide no objective reasons for not sinning so that if atheists cannot, they are no worse off than theists. (source, I've changed the word "rape" to "sin" to be more inclusive to any type of wrongdoing.)

I have long argued that morality has an objective component (in fact you can read one of the essays I've written on its objective component here), however for reasons provided above I do not believe god has anything to do with that component. All it takes for something to be objective is that you justify it on a basis outside of your own opinions - and that is pretty easy to do.

The article you've copied and pasted is worthless. If the author were to hand a paper like that to his Philosophy 101 instructor, he would get an F.
 
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charlesseamanj

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FSTDT said:
(And besides, if morality really does come from God, what does God base it on? If its something outside of his own personal opinions, then however God reasons can be achieved by any theist or atheist alike, meaning morality has an objective component outside of the will of God. And if it doesnt, then theists are no worse off than atheists in terms of providing objective reasons to justify their actions.)
.
God did create everything so he determines what is Good and bad. His opinions is the foundation of what he says is good and bad. He, being so far above us, is more elightened as to the reasons he gives us his standereds. We being the created have no other choice than to submit or die. This might seem harsh, but we are the ones dis-obeying the comands of the father of all creation. He being the owner has the right to do as he sees fit in the area of justice.
 
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FSTDT

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charlesseamanj said:
His opinions is the foundation of what he says is good and bad. He, being so far above us, is more elightened as to the reasons he gives us his standereds.
Besides testing if we will simply obey, does he have reasons for his standards or not?
 
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charlesseamanj said:
You are trying to use the laws of nature to explain the laws of the Spirit. The laws of the Spirit created the laws of nature. That is why the one in the Spirit has a more compleet knoledge of the sciences of this modern world.

Are you related to dad, from the CrEvo forums?
 
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FSTDT

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Charlesseaman,

charlesseamanj said:
We are not able to compleetly obey. This is why God provided a way for us to be pardoned. God did this because he loves us.
I dont mean to be rude, but your reply didnt answer my question. I didnt ask whether we are able to obey all of his standards, I asked "does he have reasons for his standards or not?".
 
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charlesseamanj

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FSTDT said:
Charlesseaman,


I dont mean to be rude, but your reply didnt answer my question. I didnt ask whether we are able to obey all of his standards, I asked "does he have reasons for his standards or not?".
The reason for his standerds is: He formed them after himself. They are the standerds he follows and would follow if he were a man, which he became.
 
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Patzak

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charlesseamanj wrote:
The correct translation of the word is not "kill" it is "murder". So that arguement has no logical founding.

I think your biblical morality is not as absolute as you would like to think. By differentiating between killing and murder you have just shifted the relative (human) part to determining whether a killing is an execution or a murder.

You are essentialy saying state-sancioned killing is not murder - how about assassinations? The assassin is surely just doing their job, executing the will (or possibly even the law) of the country/government.


Another point: you say the Israelites' killing of neighbouring nations in the OT was not wrong, because it was done on God's command and therefore just. So apparently God's direct command trumps his own laws. I don't know about you personally, but I have seen fundamentalist christians claim they would kill their own children if God commanded them to do so. Would that be right or wrong? And how can I, who personally never speak with God, much less know what he is or isn't saying to you, see the inherent difference between a just, God-ordered killing on the one hand and an unjust murder commited by a psychotic who "hears voices in his head" on the other?
 
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