Is divorce sin

Jennifer615 said:

mghalpern, I am very offended by what you have written above and would like an apology. HOW DARE YOU say I left my husband because of a "choice I felt confortable with"!!!! You were not there to see the years of abuse I suffered at his hands!! HOW DARE YOU suggest I must stay with a mean, cruel, manipulative man!! HOW DARE YOU!!

I have come across you in other threads, and thought you were able to give a argument with respect for the other person, but after this post, I have changed my mind. You have no right to judge me!

Just last weekend I had a heart to heart with my 9 year old daughter. She was in tears telling how much the fighting between my ex and myself affected me (I didn't even know she remembered it as she was 2 1/2 when we separated). She told me that her life has been so much better since the day we separated. I believe that this was Gods way of telling me that I did the right thing by leaving. This confirmed it for me! If you actually read all my posts, you would realise that I am not saying that divorce is an easy perfectly OK option, however forcing a woman to stay with an ABUSIVE husband is EVIL!!! I pray one day God will reveal this to you.

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I am absolutely not sorry for what I wrote. I didn't judge you in the least. All I said is that you will not be able to back up your decision with scripture. You felt (according to your own words above "I believe that this was Gods way of telling me that I did the right thing by leaving. This confirmed it for me!") that you had made the right decision. You have not supplied any scripture for this and that is up to you. I'm fine with your decision for yourself. I would not have necessarily advised you to divorce. I would have suggested a legal separation. There is a marked difference between the two. What I am most concerned about is that you are not only giving others the idea that divorce is alright (without scriptural reference or Godly counsel), but you have actually told others to leave their spouse and that divorce is okay (though not always the best choice). If you have some scripture which bkg (and I) have asked for you to provide (only so that we and other readers can see God in the case for divorce), then I will totally retract my comments in the post you have referred to. I am not sitting on the Judgment Seat; however, I do feel a responsibility to challenge anything that is not scripturally sound doctrine. We are all "messing" with God's children on here. I'm just as responsible to provide biblical advice that can be backed up, not just by my feelings but with scripture, as you are...Michael

mghalpern said:

I am absolutely not sorry for what I wrote. I didn't judge you in the least. All I said is that you will not be able to back up your decision with scripture. You felt (according to your own words above "I believe that this was Gods way of telling me that I did the right thing by leaving. This confirmed it for me!") that you had made the right decision. You have not supplied any scripture for this and that is up to you. I'm fine with your decision for yourself. I would not have necessarily advised you to divorce. I would have suggested a legal separation. There is a marked difference between the two. What I am most concerned about is that you are not only giving others the idea that divorce is alright (without scriptural reference or Godly counsel), but you have actually told others to leave their spouse and that divorce is okay (though not always the best choice). If you have some scripture which bkg (and I) have asked for you to provide (only so that we and other readers can see God in the case for divorce), then I will totally retract my comments in the post you have referred to. I am not sitting on the Judgment Seat; however, I do feel a responsibility to challenge anything that is not scripturally sound doctrine. We are all "messing" with God's children on here. I'm just as responsible to provide biblical advice that can be backed up, not just by my feelings but with scripture, as you are...Michael

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As always, Michael hit the nail on the head here. There is no Scriptural basis for divorce in the case mentioned above. There *IS* scripture basis for forgiveness, and potentially separation.

I'm saddened to see that people, especially Christians, are actually offended by Scripture. How can one be offended by the Words of our God? How can one love our God and be offended by His Word at the same time? How can we proclaim to have our hearts set on Jesus yet call Scripture "cold and hard"? We can't..

Michael is correct. There is no judgement in what he said. He is following, in my opinion, the Scriptural call for us to hold each other accountable. I'm not sure what is judgemental about that.

Abuse sucks and there is no excuse. But I could (and have) say the same thing about divorce in many cases. If what a person does/says/believes doesn't have Scriptural support, then how can one say that it is of God? I ask these questions here because I ask these questions of myself nearly every day.

2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings,

bkg

Hello fellow christians,

I have gone through 1 divorce (wife had 3 affairs) and almost went through another one recently (see tramatic seperation advice).

I have read all the posts, we are all brothers and sisters in christ so sad to see some of us taking things as a personal attack on ourselves.

My 1st wife that I am now friends with still had 3 seperate affairs and I forgave her 2 times in a pastors office ( twice with her boss). She became a christian after me after 1st affair and she tried to become one, but only for me (wrong reason) not because she was lead to by God or Jesus. She now never goes to church. I did not seperate from her as she left, and went may miles away. This must have been Gods will as it lines up with Gods Scipture.

Was Divorce a Sin, Yes.... But I did follow scripture and I am at peace knowing that I did follow Gods Word.

My 2nd wife, she left without notice and took money, everything.
But why?

My Wife was being directed and mislead by a controlling new age christian woman who was divorced. I never knew there was such a thing. All your dreams are directed by God and are a message from God!

My Wife was upset that I was never at home as I was working all the time, missing church on Sunday. Yes, I put money and work before God, getting burned out, not emotionally there for my wife. So she found it else where.

Abuse, (opening a can of worms here now) over 3 yrs we both verbally abused each other, not fair fighting. 3 times she hit me and I hit her back, of course after we seperated she told evreyone that I hit her, she forgot to mention she hit me first. Bibical behavior by either one of us....NO
What is abuse? Husband or Wife doing things to hurt or controll the other spouse.

Did my wife treat me with respect? No

Did I love my Wife as Christ loved the Church ( was I willing to literaly die for my wife)? No

Would it been a Sin if I had filed for Divorce? Yes! Would I have been forgiven by God if I had done so without following his scriptures (His Will and Word) ?
On judgement day when I (and all of us) are to stand before him and held accountable for what we did on this earth....What am I going to say in my defense? Make up an excuse for not following his scriptures? I was not happy.....She hit me... She took everything...I dont love her anymore....I could never forgive her...I met someone else....I did it for the kids....I wasnt happy!

I beleive in God, so I beleive Divorce is a Sin.

I took personal responsibility for my own part in the marriage. I was honest with myself and wrote everything down that I did that was not Godly in the relationship. I prayed and asked God to forgive me, I read and asked for her forgiveness for the things I had done wrong. Was I mad did I hate her....Yes I did! It was so hard not to listen and follow ungodly advice but God gave us free will and his written word to follow.
I went to personal counselling myself, walked away from $6000 jobs and focused on God and myself.
I had 2 lawyers on standby ready to go to court in Canada and USA....( my wife wanted a divorce). I did not do anything unless I conferred with my Pastor first.
I prayed that my wifes newage christian friend would not controll my wife anymore, God intervened and she dissapeared.

I flew 3000 miles to USA and went to workshop with my wife that had moved 3000 miles away from me to see if it was over.

God intervened and we reconciled.... Because we allowed him to intervene.
Off to another couples workshop with my wife next week. God is Good.
God 1st, Wife 2nd, Job 3rd......or God 1st, Husband 2nd, Job 3rd.

Have we had arguements since...yes.....Did she ask for forgiveness about leaving and taking everything...yes.... Did I have to let the anger go, forgive her, so I could show her how I could love her the way in which christ loved the church...yes. Has she changed ...yes... Who had to change first, does it really matter?

As Dr.Phil says do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

Is Divorce a Sin? Yes What would have happened it I had not followed Godly scriptures? Divorce that is a fact!!


There is always 3 sides in any marriage, wifes side, husbands side, Gods side, if we can all learn to be empathatic and compassionate as christians our marriages will work. I really believe that the only way we can grow emotionally and be tested as christians is when we our in a marriage relationship. Our true nature, our childhood flaws, how grounded wqe are as christians, come out.

Its all about personal responsibility. Men love their wives as christ loved the church ( men are you ready to die literally for your wife 100% of the time?). Wives to respect their husbands.

We have a Awesome God! Divorce is a Sin! If each of us follows his Word (scriptures) and change ourselves (personal reponsibility) what ever happens God will Bless us for being obedient!!

Someone talked about walking with moccasins...I have walked with them,
( the night before my wife left I was working out of town half way to alaska when my transmission died on my truck, it was midnight and I had to walk for 3 hours to the nearest mining camp through prime time grizzly country with no gun or phone, called my wife on sat phone 3am when I got to camp and she said she would pray for me, even though she had transferred all the money into her own account earlier and packed everything of value in house ready to leave 3000 miles away to usa) so I have been there...but how can we say we are christians and deliberatly ignore scriptures because it conflicts with our own personal agenda?

Maybe we should all learn how to be more God-fearing and less Self-seeking.
Not just being christians in our heads but in our hearts!

Divorce is a Sin! God has blessed me for following his scriptures. Even the most hopeless situation is blessed if God is allowed to intervene.

Some of us may get divorced, like my 1st marraige. We may ask why? What about Unanswered prayers that we may think have not been answered, maybe they were answered, just not in the way we wanted then answered.

God bless each and everyone of you! Amen!

God Bless.

blessedlady70 said:

Ok...what now?

If you have gotten divorced and its not on "biblical grounds"...what now? Are you doomed to be alone the rest of your life? Are you never allowed to share the love of another?

Most people seem to focus on whether or not the "grounds" were there for the divorce, but what about afterwards...after you have picked up the pieces of yourself and put them back together...

what then?

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I don't think being alone for the rest of your life = being doomed. But yes, I believe that the Bible is clear on this subject:

1 Cor. 10: 10-11 - To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband 11 (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) --and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

1 Corinthians 7:27 - Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage.

Mark 10:11 - And he said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her;

Mark 10:12 - and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

Is being alone a bad thing? I think that very few people (myself included) really consider any of these teachings before they marry or before they divorce. I never thought I'd be divorced - not in a million years. But I didn't put God first, and He "took away" my idol. Do I blame Him? No. Do I blame my wife? No. Do I blame myself? Yes. Must I now live with the consequences of my decisions, my past? Yes. Do I pray for restoration? Multiple times per day....

I'm not sure how that is "doomed"... It may not be ideal in *MY* eyes, but I think that God is clear on how He views the situation...

God Bless.

blessedlady70 said:

I didn't mean to sound like being alone is "being doomed"...but it is less than ideal as a human who craves being loved and being in a relationship with the opposite sex. After all, we were created to desire that very thing (and of course a relationship with God).



I agree that most don't consider that teaching before they marry or divorce...I know I didn't. So, how can we just forget that desire for relationship...how? I have never known how it feels to be truly loved by a spouse...to be treated with respect, to be honored and cared for...



It just hurts so much that now I can never know that because I made the mistake of marrying someone who would not give those things to me...



And, no I was not the ideal spouse either...it just grieves my soul that I will never know the love that God intended me to know from a man...or that my son will know what a father is...because of bad choices that I made.



Thank you for your opinion...and God Bless.

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I’m so sorry. I hear the immense pain in your post believing that you may never receive the human love that you crave so much and that your son may not know what a father is.



Before I continue…my mother never remarried after my father divorced her (I was two and a half years old), yet she continued on quite beautifully and though I have some issues and insecurities that I am working through, I didn’t turn out too bad. (I know lots of boys w/o fathers and girls w/o mothers who have turned out great and lots who haven’t. God can give you everything you need to help you raise your son to be a mighty and healthy man of God.)



Now on to the rest of my post... There are several questions that are left by you posts that make a thoughtful/scriptural response very difficult (i.e., Are you and your ex Christians?, Were you both at marriage?, Who filed for divorce?, What were your reasons?, Do you have any scriptural support for this divorce?, Is you ex remarried?, Is he in communication with you?, Have you considered reconciliation?, How long were you married?, How long have you been divorced?, Did you start with a separation?...if so, How long?, Etc.). Don’t feel compelled to answer any of these very personal questions, however, providing you with any sound advice (regarding marriage/divorce/remarriage, etc.) is next to impossible without this information. That being said, I believe that your focus (for the foreseeable future) ought to be on the Lord and your son. From what you have written and the by the “sound of your (first and this) post,” I feel that God may be letting you know that He wants to be your first and only love for now…He wants to be your Healer, Provider, Protector, and your Lover.



I can relate to some of your struggle. As mentioned above, I was raised by my mother (and my older sister). I received an tremendous amount of affection, acceptance, love, etc. (to a fault); however, I didn’t receive nearly as much of these things in my marriage as I had hoped for (this being part of our problems and something I have been working on to have a much healthier view of my insecurities and conditioning). Now that we are separated, I have almost no affection, acceptance, love, etc., and certainly no physical intimacy. I have resolved that this may be for a very long time. We’ll see how long this takes…it’s up to God and it’s up to us to cooperate. For now I will continue to keep my attention on Christ and let Him lead me. I have very difficult days, but He sees me through each and every one.



I hope this is helpful. If I can provide anything else just let me know…Michael

Jennifer, I appreciate your posts and agree completely. My husband was physically abusive early in our marriage and it hurt our relationship a lot. God wouldn't let me go though, he wanted me and my husband to be together. Had he not changed I believe I would have been right to leave him, but he did change so I needed to stay. Some Christians haven't learned understanding and grace. God calls each person to his will in each situation.

To the two who have set themselves up as judge and jury: instead of continually pounding each individual into the floor why not try saying to yourself "I won't be that way, it isn't right for me." I hope someday you will truly understand the meaning of grace. If God can forgive any sin but turning from him as you say, why doesn't your actions show such convictions? P.S. Once remarried, getting divorced to that person would be a sin also!

Leanna said:

To the two who have set themselves up as judge and jury: instead of continually pounding each individual into the floor why not try saying to yourself "I won't be that way, it isn't right for me." I hope someday you will truly understand the meaning of grace. If God can forgive any sin but turning from him as you say, why doesn't your actions show such convictions? P.S. Once remarried, getting divorced to that person would be a sin also!

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Leanna,

Nobody here is acting as judge or jury. I don't understand why you would say such a thing? Is it because I am strong in my convictions that the Bible has ALL of the answers for our lives? Is it because I feel it important to share those answers with others? Are we not to hold each other accountable?

If, by sharing the Words of God, you feel I am being judge and jury, then I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I believe you are completely wrong. If someone comes here asking "is this sin", and the Bible is very clear to answer that question, how is it judgemental to post the answer? If someone comes here and says "I believe...." but the belief is outside of Scripture, and someone posts Scripture to state just that, how is that judgemental? If someone says "God said...." but God's own Words state otherwise, and we know God does not change, then how is posting that being judgemental?

The truth of the Bible isn't easy. Not for me, not for many. But it *IS* the truth. Where is the judgement in that?

I'm sorry if I've posted too many questions in this post, but I don't see how you can state that I have no compassion or grace for posting God's words...

EDIT: If my message came off at all upset or condescending, I want to assure you it certainly was not intended to. In my own search for what God's will is for my life, I have struggled with what I see to be truths in the Bible that seem to be sometimes rejected by many Christians. I honestly don't get it. But in my own seeking, I think I sometimes seem to be seeking the sliver in anothers rather than the plank in my own eye - that's not intended. I do believe that it is important to hold each other accountable - it's not just important, it's critical for reasons that Michael mentioned. Perhaps delivery is the key...

Leanna said:

Jennifer, I appreciate your posts and agree completely. My husband was physically abusive early in our marriage and it hurt our relationship a lot. God wouldn't let me go though, he wanted me and my husband to be together. Had he not changed I believe I would have been right to leave him, but he did change so I needed to stay. Some Christians haven't learned understanding and grace. God calls each person to his will in each situation.

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Leanna said:

To the two who have set themselves up as judge and jury: instead of continually pounding each individual into the floor why not try saying to yourself "I won't be that way, it isn't right for me." I hope someday you will truly understand the meaning of grace. If God can forgive any sin but turning from him as you say, why doesn't your actions show such convictions? P.S. Once remarried, getting divorced to that person would be a sin also!

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You are absolutely right! I am so sorry that I was so shallow and restrictive in my viewpoint. I leaned only on my understanding of God's Word and countless Christian books/sermons/commentaries/etc. as my guide for the ridiculous advice that I have dispensed. I mistakenly thought that our forum friends were asking for godly input into their situations...silly me! Since God's grace is so abundant, maybe I’ll start leaning on my own understanding and acknowledge that He gave me a brain to think with apart from His Word and the works of many scholarly Christians. I can start trusting myself because “I’m so fearfully and wonderfully made.” Maybe you could teach me more about understanding and grace and you don’t even have to support it with any scripture since doing so shouldn’t be of any importance to anyone. I used to think that God’s will was very clear for everyone (at least that His Word pertained to ALL Believers), but since “God calls each person to his will in each situation,” His will must be different from person to person. I can surmise that divorce is okay for some, but not for all…never mind the reason for the divorce. You know, I’ve learned something… What’s right for some may not be right for all and what’s wrong for some may not be wrong for all!



NOW THAT I AM AWAKE FROM MY NAP…LET ME RESPOND WITH CLARITY OF MIND!



You may have thought that you might be able to convince me that I have no grace or understanding…that I am the judge and jury, but you are sorely wrong. I have not said anything in the posts that you are referring to that could be construed as judgmental. Lady, I have been a Christian for twenty-six years, I’m a licensed minister, and have counseled people for fifteen plus years, and in all this time, no one has ever accused me of the things YOU are accusing me of. I am known as a man of God’s love, grace, mercy, and kindness. I make no apologies for being unwavering when it come to God’s Word. Have I said that anyone was not a Christian for a decision they have made? Have I said anyone was going to hell because of a bad choice? I think not! God loves each and every one of us the same. And yes, we who confess our sins and repent will be forgiven our sins against our loving Father. But this has nothing to do with what His Word says.



Proverbs 3: 5, 6 tells us:

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.



It seems that leaning on God’s understanding (His Word) and acknowledging Him (what He has said) is insufficient for you. No wonder so many people walk a crooked path.



All bkg and I have asked for is scriptural references for the statements made by members in these forums or for an acknowledgement that they are basing their comments on personal opinion, feelings, thought, etc. No harm…no foul. Just be honest. You would think that on a Christian forum people would expect you to use the Bible to back up your thoughts…especially when asked for by others. Again, if you can’t just let us know. I’m not better because I may have scriptural references, but a lot of non-believers and young believers are looking for godly advice/support/information and I think we have an obligation to make it clear just where these thoughts stem from.



Talk about offended. You have insulted me and again…you offer no scripture to support any of you accusations against any of my postings. If we were in court, the whole case would have been thrown out for lack of evidence. You can’t substantiate anything that you wrote about me in your post. You talk about understanding and grace, yet you resort to name calling (judge and jury) and accusations (that I don’t know about “understanding and grace”). Maybe bkg’s post will help you understand the POV we seem to share better…Michael

bkg said:

Leanna,

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bkg said:

Nobody here is acting as judge or jury. I don't understand why you would say such a thing? Is it because I am strong in my convictions that the Bible has ALL of the answers for our lives? Is it because I feel it important to share those answers with others? Are we not to hold each other accountable?



If, by sharing the Words of God, you feel I am being judge and jury, then I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I believe you are completely wrong. If someone comes here asking "is this sin", and the Bible is very clear to answer that question, how is it judgemental to post the answer? If someone comes here and says "I believe...." but the belief is outside of Scripture, and someone posts Scripture to state just that, how is that judgemental? If someone says "God said...." but God's own Words state otherwise, and we know God does not change, then how is posting that being judgemental?



The truth of the Bible isn't easy. Not for me, not for many. But it *IS* the truth. Where is the judgement in that?



I'm sorry if I've posted too many questions in this post, but I don't see how you can state that I have no compassion or grace for posting God's words...



EDIT: If my message came off at all upset or condescending, I want to assure you it certainly was not intended to. In my own search for what God's will is for my life, I have struggled with what I see to be truths in the Bible that seem to be sometimes rejected by many Christians. I honestly don't get it. But in my own seeking, I think I sometimes seem to be seeking the sliver in anothers rather than the plank in my own eye - that's not intended. I do believe that it is important to hold each other accountable - it's not just important, it's critical for reasons that Michael mentioned. Perhaps delivery is the key...

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BKG... I think that I know you well enough by now to say that I don't see you as upset or condescending. I believe it is your passion for God's truth and for others to see/accept His truth that leads you to say the things that you do. We tend to live our lives as though tomorrow is guaranteed, but the truth is, none of us know if we will take another breath. When you live life with this understanding (which often a crisis/tragedy leads us to) your passion for living according to God’s truth is ignited into a blazing fire. We can all improve our delivery; however, we should read past one’s delivery and look into one’s heart. Is truth being spoken in spite of a “rough” delivery? If so, we need to focus on the truth that is being spoken. Someone wrote in a marriage thread that we ought to be offended when someone defiles our Lord in any way and I see you standing up to defend your Heavenly Father, not your opinions/thoughts/feelings. I believe that you do this not because God needs us to defend Him necessarily, but because many non-believers and new-believers are reading these posts. The Lord has warned us about leading “children” astray and of false teaching:





1 Timothy 1

qvb://0/anchor/4Warning Against False Teaching

qvb://0/anchor/53I want you to stay in Ephesus. I asked you to do that when I went into Macedonia. Some people there in Ephesus are teaching false things. Stay there so that you can command them to stop. qvb://0/anchor/64Tell them not to spend their time on stories that are not true and on long lists of names in family histories. These things only bring arguments; they do not help God’s work. God’s work is done by faith. qvb://0/anchor/75The purpose of this command is for people to have love. To have this love they must have a pure heart, they must do what they know is right, and they must have true faith. qvb://0/anchor/86Some people have wandered away from these things. They talk about things that are worth nothing. qvb://0/anchor/97They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about. They do not even understand what they say they are sure about.

qvb://0/anchor/108We know that the law is good if a man uses it right. qvb://0/anchor/119We also know that the law is not made for good men. The law is made for people who are against the law and for those who refuse to follow the law. It is for people who are against God and are sinful, who are not holy and have no religion, who kill their fathers and mothers, who murder, qvb://0/anchor/1210who take part in sexual sins, men who have sexual relations with other men, those who sell slaves, who tell lies, who speak falsely, and who do anything against the true teaching of God. qvb://0/anchor/1311That teaching is part of the Good News that God gave me to tell. That glorious Good News is from the blessed God.



1 Timothy 6

False Teaching

qvb://0/anchor/4You must teach and preach these things.3If anyone has a different teaching, he does not accept the true teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ. And that teaching shows him the true way to serve God. qvb://0/anchor/54The person who teaches falsely is full of pride and understands nothing. He is sick with a love for arguing and fighting about words. And that brings jealousy, making trouble, insults, and evil mistrust. qvb://0/anchor/65And that also brings arguments from men who have evil minds. They have lost the truth. They think that serving God is a way to get rich.



You are absolutely correct. We have an obligation to each other as sisters and brothers to hold each other accountable, not in judgment, but in love. It is so much easier to sin in private than in the witness of others. We must lean on each other for support when we are weak or misguided. It’s so important to admonish one another when we are not walking in the truth and pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to our spirit so we can turn from our wicked ways. We are one body and when one of our members is living in sin, promoting false teachings, is hurting, etc., this hurts the whole body.



BKG… Keeping seeking God and His truth and keep exposing false teaching, so the “little ones” may learn and know the truth. God Bless you my friend…Michael

Exodus 7
2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites.

Joshua 11
20 For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Proverbs 28
14 Blessed is the man who always fears the LORD ,
but he who hardens his heart falls into trouble.

God permitted man Divorce on the grounds of hardness of hearts. So to say there is no biblical backing for divorce is not true. That would lead to the simple question what is it that brings on a hardness of the heart? Abuse, neglect, hurt, anger, hate, love, jealousy, abortion,...... I mean we could go on and on. God allowed Moses to permit divorce, all the while God was hating it. This problem has nagged at me for quite some time now. So I went back and looked at all the times a hard heart was mentioned. My findings were interesting... more so that one instance I found God hardening a man and a peoples heart.... for a great purpose. One where a warning of this hardness will lead to trouble and one ( Isaiah which I did not post) where the hardness of the heart blinds, and deafens people. Three very unique and different outcomes from the same "illness" , if you will. This is where IMO this conversation has gone. When you remedy a "sickness" you have to establish what you are dealing with, you do not give a cough drop if you have a fever, and you do not give aspirin for a runny nose. and you do not punish for allowing the "sickness" in after the sick have recovered. You learn to wear your socks on a cold night... to shut the window before bed, or turn the fan off when you sleep. Those that don't will always be sick. I see our two brothers doing something very similar.... yet failing in retrieving the symptoms. Not everyone gets a runny nose and not everyone gets a fever...... while bed rest and lots of liquids is the "general" cure... its not always the best medicine.
This leads me to my larger point.... why are you hard hearted? Abuse? God may have very well permitted this heart to get hard.... but He hates when that happens. Argue otherwise I have scripture to back that up ( see above) So what do you do now? The very strict and Biblical path drawn seems to be very cut and dry, and God has given His people every option to avoid this exact thing, yet in the christian world and in the world itself, its still a astounding "sickness" that infects many. Is divorce a sin... that question seems to have been covered many pages ago..... my personal opinion does not vary from the majority, even as an "innocent" by-standard I have been thrust into a sin. Yet, still one I can move on from. bkg and mg seem to bee taking a page right from the "Book of desi" I am sad to see that the individual in all this has been lost. "Overall" statements and pleas for biblical backing will do exactly as what you are trying to remedy... you are creating hard hearts, not working on them. Some may respond well to this method... as I read over this thread... its not working. Please give me biblical backing where we are to push one another into such a thing.
I have used the verse below over and over... and pounded away on the theme of acceptance. "those that can should"... those that cant .... well they will miss the rewards they are being bestowed upon you. Years of abuse and the phrase "jump to divorce" is made...... affairs dealt with and still the plea for biblical backing is being asked for. Hardness of heart..... from abuse... sure, and divorce is permitted.... sorry boys thats the way it is, its ALLOWED, but because it is so does not mean its smiled upon. I made a vow to my wife to ensure her happiness.... my hard was hardened first hers followed... now she is happy without me and I will not sit here are tell God He messed up for allowing this to happen.... he ALLOWED me to fulfill my vow and promise, through my, hard heart. I failed to see the greater picture until it was fully revealed. This does not make it right, this does not make it biblical, this does also does not warrant each other to jump down peoples throats, but it does fulfill my promise to her, and just as it should be, not on my terms.
Of all people you know how much it hurts... the suffering you feel... and both of you and your approach quickly makes me wonder if perhaps the hardness of divorce has not started on your hearts as well. There is a thing called tact and on a subject as delicate as the one in this conversation.... you are both heavily lacking it..... I don't know you mg... but of what I have read... you need help just as much as those you are holding "accountable". Dont hang your acceptance over people like something special.
Keep working on your own marriages and life after, before you start telling people how to fix theirs.
I understand perhaps better then most the bitterness that breeds inside because of a spouse leaving... there is a thing that separates the "men" from the "boys" and I am now failing to see it here, though I have no doubt you both know what I am talking about. I would double and triple check your motives.... while you are focusing on those already divorced it seems as though you should be sharing this message with those in the midst or on the verge.... and TRUE divorced christians have looked into the word about this subject their rejection to the acceptance extended is simply not your job to fix. And have be it your approach seems to be having quite the opposite effect.

Matthew 19
Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
10The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."
11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[3] because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Warrior Poet

thank you Michael for replying to my post...I appreciate it very much.

May God Bless You

As always, Michael hit the nail on the head here. There is no Scriptural basis for divorce in the case mentioned above. There *IS* scripture basis for forgiveness, and potentially separation.

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For the sake of exploring the issue of whether there is basis for divorce due to abuse:

In the gym where I work out, there is a poster hanging in the locker room. It is a picture of a casket with a beautiful flower bouquet on top. The words say: "She was married 20 years, and was only given flowers once" and below that is a number to call if you suspect domestic violence.

Hypothetically, say the woman in the casket and her killer husband had a son. While it is unbiblical to divorce, I believe it is quite biblical to provide the best care for your children (I don't know specific verses, but I doubt anyone could prove that isn't biblical) and I hardly believe staying in a marriage like that would be providing the best care for the son. Legal separations are quite convenient (ironic that the same papers are filed as a divorce, and the final order is the same too - only difference is that you are still married), but would giving an abusive husband visitation be providing the best care? In most states in the US, visitation and child support go hand in hand, very hard to get a judge to order one and deny the other. Studies show that boys need a positive father figure in their life. Studies also show that wife beaters very easilly become child beaters. I don't have the statistics right here, but any google search will give you reputable sites with those statistics - and it's common knowledge that you hear in school and on the news all the time.

You think this is a rare exception? Think again. Just today, the local paper said that the husband of a woman who was abused and he killed, was finally arrested today after a year long investigation. He made the murder look like a suicide.

Further, abuse doesn't always show when you are dating or courting. I know some women who saw no warning signs, no red flags, until they were married 10 years, when hubby decided to start hitting.

So what is an abused wife to do? Divorcing the spouse is not scriptural, but providing the best care for her children is scriptural.

bkg, let me take back what i said of you earlier. I know from the many posts of yours I have read that you are not trying to be condemning. I think it is good for you to stick by your convictions.

Flipper, call me the worst sinner, but I think it wouldn't be wrong for that woman to get a divorce. Albeit counseling and ample opportunity for reparation has been made.

Mg & bk (judge & jury), you want Bible verses, here goes:

James 2:13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgement.

Mercy is getting the abused spouse out of the abusive marriage, judgement is forcing him/her to stay were he/she and the children are continuiously abused.

Matthew 12:7 - If you had known what these words mean "I desire mercy, not sacrifice" you would not have condemned the innocent. (8) For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

God does not require the abused spouse to be a sacrificial victim for the sake of the "marriage".

1 Corinthians 7:12 - But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman should have her own husband.

I believe that the desire that God put in a man to have a companion and sexual partner is too great, especially if they were married before. Who would have the greater desire, the person who have never been married before, or the person who has once known an intimate sexual marriage?

"It is better to marry than to burn"

Sorry, don't know the exact verse. This applies to divorced persons too, not just single people.

1 Timothy 2-3 - Such teachings come through hypocritical liars whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. (3) They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods ......................

To me, forbidding someone to remarry after a divorce is a doctrine of demons.

Genesis 2 18 - It is not good that a man should be alone

I know you are going to invalidate everything I have said, as you have all my posts. You just don't seem to understand God's heart if a spouse is unrepentedly abusive.

You refuse to see exactly what I am saying. I don't believe in easy divorce at all!!!! This is close to my heart because my brother was in this situation. Him and his wife were in a loving marriage. Admittedly they are not Christians, but he treated her very well. Yes, I'm know he has faults but I also know he was a good husband. Anyway when she turned 29 she had a mid-life crises. She went and got her belly-button pierced, then walked out of the marriage, saying "you always tried to change me". She then got together with her soccer coach, and started living with him. In this case, the divorce is absolutely wrong. Yes, my brother is a bit of a power freak, but there was NOTHING that could not have been resolved there. She made a lifetime commitment and should have stayed with him and worked it out, instead of taking the easy way out. My best friend's husband left her because she gained too much weight, and developed a drinking problem. She lost heaps of weight and stopped drinking completely, but he said he "gave his marriage back to God" and that was that. Another man left his wife because she could not keep the house tidy. All these divorces are sinful and pathetic and should not have happened.

Mg, you have said I have encouraged others to leave marriages. I only said this to one person, sweetpea, whose husband treated her lower than a prostitute. I would say to any other separated Christian to do everything they can and whatever it takes to try and reconcile the marriage.

Not only are abusive marriages extremely bad for the abused spouse, they are soul destroying for the children in the marriage. I know many many adult survivors who resent their mothers for not leaving their abusive fathers.

Mg, I can sort of see where you're coming from. You are separated and your wife wants a divorce. If you say divorce in some cases is OK, then you think you would be saying it is OK for your wife to divorce you. I sincerely hope you and your wife reconcile because it seems to me you love her and want to change. I would however advise you to go to a Christian men's accountability group. I know quite a few marriages that have been saved when the man acknowledges his part in the problems and works to deal with it. Their wives have fallen in love with them over again.

And another thing, for some people, to told they cannot remarry IS BEING DOOMED!!!!!!!!!!! God puts this desire in many people's hearts. To me personally, a life of being single would not be a life worth living.

Blessed lady, I can really feel your pain. I don't believe you are doomed to be unmarried. If you did the wrong thing by divorcing your ex-spouse, then repent. God is mercyful and forgiving. Get your life in order with God first, and pray about it. God might bring someone into your life. Just be more deserning about who you marry. He must be a Christian and love you with all his heart.

I will tell you the truth. You will probably be marginalised by other "Christians" if you did not have "Biblical grounds" for divorcing your 1st husband, but there are many churches and Christians who will accept you. There will just not be as much choice. I know, I live it every day. I have been rejected by many on this and other forums. Yet, I will keep my eyes on God and follow Him and receive his blessings on my family.

Leanna said:

bkg, let me take back what i said of you earlier. I know from the many posts of yours I have read that you are not trying to be condemning. I think it is good for you to stick by your convictions.

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Leanna said:

Flipper, call me the worst sinner, but I think it wouldn't be wrong for that woman to get a divorce. Albeit counseling and ample opportunity for reparation has been made.

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Leanna,



That is kind of you to retract what you said about bkg. He really is a good man that isn't trying to judge anyone. He is a man of strong convictions who is concerned about statements that are either contrary to, or can't be supported by scripture. He is a humble man who has learned a lot about himself and the Lord through his own personal struggles. Thank you for your own humility to recognize these things.



Leanna...regarding Flipper... Again, I'm not too sure that anyone here is attempting to condemn, convict, judge, or name call other members. The title of this thread is "Is Divorce Sin." Each person here is doing there best to answer this question, not to cast aspersions. I do believe that when one makes an argument for or against a position, they are obligated to support their position. This can (and should first) be done through biblical support, you can quote biblical/spiritual "authorities" (theologians, pastors, authors, etc.), you can supply your opinion/feelings/thoughts, but one must make it clear that they are doing this. Many times members have been asked to support their assertions with scripture, yet most have not only been unable/unwilling to do so, they have not come out and said that, though they may not be able to support their comments biblically, they strongly hold their view based upon feeling/thoughts/etc. When we are all posting to a public forum, especially as Christians, we ought to take it seriously and act responsibly knowing that many/most of the viewers/posters are looking for advice/direction/guidance. These individuals who are searching may or may not be Christians or they may be young in their faith. So, again I say that I don't think that anyone is calling you or anyone else a sinner just because they believe something is a sin. If someone asks directly whether "we" believe what he or she have done is a sin, and they have provided amble information, then they are opening themselves up to an answer. I welcome your comments...Michael

Leanna said:

bkg, let me take back what i said of you earlier. I know from the many posts of yours I have read that you are not trying to be condemning. I think it is good for you to stick by your convictions.

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I just wanted to publicly say "thank you" for this. I can't put into words how much this means to me. Thank you.

I'm going to pull away from this conversation for now. My views are known - my belief is that the Bible is VERY clear on this subject. And as much as there are days that I believe it's extremely hard to live as a result of my own divorce (as I too want nothing more than to hold my wife again), I cannot and WILL NOT change God's words to suit my own desires. This desire to change God's words, I believe, will be what eventually collapses the Christian church. And it saddens me, honestly, that holding people accountable is something that, despite Paul's and John's books, we are no longer allowed to do. Christianity is NOT about feeling okay with sins and making bad life decisions (which we all do), it's about seeking the heart of our Christ and living by HIS words and HIS desires.... not our own... not my own.

mghalpern said:

Regarding Flipper... Again, I'm not too sure that anyone here is attempting to condemn, convict, judge, or name call other members. The title of this thread is "Is Divorce Sin." Each person here is doing there best to answer this question, not to cast aspersions. I do believe that when one makes an argument for or against a position, they are obligated to support their position. This can (and should first) be done through biblical support, you can quote biblical/spiritual "authorities" (theologians, pastors, authors, etc.), you can supply your opinion/feelings/thoughts, but one must make it clear that they are doing this. Many times members have been asked to support their assertions with scripture, yet most have not only been unable/unwilling to do so, they have not come out and said that, though they may not be able to support their comments biblically, they strongly hold their view based upon feeling/thoughts/etc. When we are all posting to a public forum, especially as Christians, we ought to take it seriously and act responsibly knowing that many/most of the viewers/posters are looking for advice/direction/guidance. These individuals who are searching may or may not be Christians or they may be young in their faith. So, again I say that I don't think that anyone is calling you or anyone else a sinner just because they believe something is a sin. If someone asks directly whether "we" believe what he or she have done is a sin, and they have provided amble information, then they are opening themselves up to an answer. I welcome your comments...Michael

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Ok, let me simplify. You said that divorce goes against the Bible, right? I can't disagree with that. However, how does one handle staying married when the home situation does not provide a good environment for their son, which also goes against the Bible? Should one stay legally separated ad infinitum?

I'm not judging anyone either. For the record, I'm happily married and childless, so I'm not even using me as an example. I'm just looking at the big picture with the scenerios posed here, and seeing a contradiction, or rather, clash.