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You mean heaven, not paradise.It is my understanding that prayers for those who have died are to enable them to move from torment to paradise.
Also, just so there's no confusion, I'm not claiming the Deuterocanonical books are properly canonical and inspired--I don't have a dogmatic position one way or the other.
My sole point is to get people to think about what they believe critically. The matter of the Biblical Canon is simply an obvious example of how there are aspects of Christianity which are, very obviously, extra-biblical. What we say about the Bible in this way cannot itself be found in Scripture; but is instead extra-biblical. This isn't a problem for most Christians, but if one is making the argument that anything not in the Bible is wrong or bad then the very existence of the Bible itself conflicts with such a view.
Bible-onlyism is a false and nonsense idea. And, of course Bible-onlyism is not the same thing as Sola Scriptura, two entirely different animals. Sola Scripture states that Scripture is the final court of appeal, the Norma Normans of Christian faith and practice. This phrase Norma Normans is Latin meaning "The ruling rule", "the unruled rule", or "the norm that norms": Scripture establishes the rule of faith (regula fidei). That does not mean that there are not other rules or other standards, such as the Creeds and so forth, which are the Norma Normata, "the ruled rule" or "the normed norm"; i.e. the norms which are informed and ruled by the un-ruled rule of Scripture. The Creeds are not in the place of Scripture, but are guided by Scripture. The Church as a living body of believers practicing and believing their faith are grounded in the word of Scripture, and therefore confess the faith--that confession, that faith are the Creeds of the Church. And, likewise, through our historic and received faith and practice as Christians there has arisen a senses fidie, a consensus of faith, on which books are received as divinely inspired and authoritative as Scripture--this is the Bible. The Bible, as the Canon of Sacred Scripture, the divinely inspired written word of God, is the result of the unfolding history and general consensus of faith of the Christian Church down through the centuries. Though this consensus has not, and still remains, not strictly uniform: Which is why there continues to be debate over the Canon, specifically, over the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament.
To reach a dogmatic position on whether these books should or should not be in the Canon of Scripture should require, at the very least, a good reason. I simply do not accept that fiat pronouncements by this or that group of Christians suffices as a good reason for such a dogmatic position.
Simply saying "The Bible has 66 books because God made it that way" is a non-reason. When did God make it that way? How? On what basis do we know this? Just because you or your church only accepts this smaller Canon does not mean this was God's decision. I do not accept the infallibility of any man, not the vicar of St. Peter in Rome, nor of some pastor of a small non-denominational church in Smalltown, USA.
-CryptoLutheran
You mean heaven, not paradise.
But the idea of praying someone out of torment would be close to what the Catholic Church believes, that's true. However the RCC is the only denomination that believes in a Purgatory.
Besides which, there are other churches which pray that God will be merciful to the departed or that they will grow in glory or something like that, none of which presumes that the prayers will change God's mind about anything or will move the deceased to some other part of the afterlife, etc.
Okay, but no one prays for people in Paradise. And there are none there anyway, not since Christ's sacrifice on the cross.No I meant paradise (the place of disembodied spirits).
Thanks
It is my understanding that prayers for those who have died are to enable them to move from torment to paradise.
(Luke 16:19-31) clearly teaches two points.
1. The dead cannot move from torment to paradise (Luke 16:26).
2. The dead cannot go back to earth (Luke 16:27-31).
You seem to be teaching clearly that the revelation of God is still being revealed even today.
Another point you make is that is is a good thing for churches to teach differring doctrines (if I understand you correctly).
we have thousand of denominations due to division. Leaders have their 'own' understanding and opinions after they read the bible. It's sad I think it's how the Lord want it to be done. If you read the church history all the way up to now, you'll see godly servants of the Lord broke from their origin church and start their own denomination, some turned out to be good and some became really bad, in short no perfect church. Well it's sad and hard to swallow to see so much division for someone who's new to the faith but it's the reality.
I personally believed God is in charge of this, until Jesus's 2nd coming it will stay what is it, what do you think?
(different groups or churches is challenging to a new believer, he might ask 'so which church/community should I go to?')
Humans are fallen. We live in a world that is fallen and imperfect. We will always be imperfect until we reach glory. Nobody has it all right and nobody had it all wrong. We each naturally develop our own understanding of what Truth is. Not one of us has it all figured out. Problem is, we tend to lean more on human logic and formal education, while leaning less on the Holy Spirit to teach us.What does "not allowed" mean there? I can walk into almost any Christian church in town this Sunday and not be quizzed on doctrine, nor do I know of very many churches which keep track of or somehow otherwise make sure that all of its members believe all the approved doctrines.
But as for relations between different denominations, it's usually cordial and both sides agree that the other is genuinely Christian *(even with the differences).
That would need you to be more specific.
TrueChurches would be much more orderly if they did not have humans in them. However, we humans do not always agree, so we create choices.
By the way, ALL THE OTHER great religions of the world have divisions too, and even the Christian denominations that claim unity have a formal unity, but there is still a private disagreement among the members that is often as strong as that which separates denominations.
Study and pray and join the church that you sincerely believe has the right answers. That is all we can do and it is what we should do.
we have thousand of denominations due to division. Leaders have their 'own' understanding and opinions after they read the bible. It's sad I think it's how the Lord want it to be done. If you read the church history all the way up to now, you'll see godly servants of the Lord broke from their origin church and start their own denomination, some turned out to be good and some became really bad, in short no perfect church. Well it's sad and hard to swallow to see so much division for someone who's new to the faith but it's the reality.
I personally believed God is in charge of this, until Jesus's 2nd coming it will stay what is it, what do you think?
(different groups or churches is challenging to a new believer, he might ask 'so which church/community should I go to?')
The church would be more orderly if it didn't have humans...that made me laugh out loud, probably because mo truer words could be spoken! Lol! I'm response to all the other "great" religions of the world having denominations, they don't have the Holy Spirit. What makes Christianity not fit under the world's religion umbrella is first and foremost, Christianity does not belong to this world and secondly Christianity is not a religion. Christianity is the only belief system that involves a personal relationship with a resurrected Savior who is fully God and fully man.True
Beloved one, I also concern about oneness.So sorry for all the weird replies. I'm new at this site and not sure how it all works. I am considering writing a book on the reunification of the One Church. If I do this, would it be OK to quote you?
After all isn't it your individual, personal relationship with God that matters above all, not what Denomination you belong to, which brings you into the Kingdom?
I really need to figure out how this forum works.
So sorry for all the weird replies. I'm new at this site and not sure how it all works. I am considering writing a book on the reunification of the One Church. If I do this, would it be OK to quote you?
we have thousand of denominations due to division. Leaders have their 'own' understanding and opinions after they read the bible. It's sad I think it's how the Lord want it to be done. If you read the church history all the way up to now, you'll see godly servants of the Lord broke from their origin church and start their own denomination, some turned out to be good and some became really bad, in short no perfect church. Well it's sad and hard to swallow to see so much division for someone who's new to the faith but it's the reality.
I personally believed God is in charge of this, until Jesus's 2nd coming it will stay what is it, what do you think?
(different groups or churches is challenging to a new believer, he might ask 'so which church/community should I go to?')
we have thousand of denominations due to division. Leaders have their 'own' understanding and opinions after they read the bible. It's sad I think it's how the Lord want it to be done. If you read the church history all the way up to now, you'll see godly servants of the Lord broke from their origin church and start their own denomination, some turned out to be good and some became really bad, in short no perfect church. Well it's sad and hard to swallow to see so much division for someone who's new to the faith but it's the reality.
I personally believed God is in charge of this, until Jesus's 2nd coming it will stay what is it, what do you think?
(different groups or churches is challenging to a new believer, he might ask 'so which church/community should I go to?')
I often wonder if the reason for the division may be to promote more extensive study of His word. I don’t know but it has had this effect on my study. It’s caused me to look at the scriptures from different people’s perspectives and reevaluate them to get a more comprehensive understanding of what they are teaching.
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