• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Is Death Sleep?

Status
Not open for further replies.

hraedisc

Veteran
Nov 6, 2002
1,243
20
Visit site
✟24,083.00
Faith
SDA
Seventeenth Century

"R. O. [Richard (or Robert) Overton], scholar, soldier, and pamphleteer Man's Mortality, 1643
Title page reads:
A Treatise wherein 'T is proved, both Theologically and Philosophically, That as whole man sinned, so whole man died; contrary to that common distinction of Soul and Body: And that the present going of the Soul into heaven or hell, is a meer Fiction: And that at the Resurrection is the beginning of our immortality; and then actual Condemnation and Salvation, and not before.


Samuel Richardson (fl. 1633-1658), pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London
A Discourse on the Torments of Hell: the Foundations and Pillars thereof discover'd, search'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a Punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end, 1658


John Milton (1608-1674), "Greatest of the Sacred Poets"; Latin secretary to Cromwell


Treatise of Christian Doctrine, vol. 1, ch. 13
(Taught totally unconscious sleep of man in death until coming of Christ and resurrection.)
Inasmuch then as the whole man is uniformly said to consist of body, and soul (whatever may be the distinct provinces assigned to these divisions), I will show, that in death, first, the whole man, and secondly, each component part, suffers privation of life. . . . The grave is the common guardian of all till the day of judgment.—Chapter 13.


578

George Wither (1588-1667), "The Christian Poet,"
English translation of Nemesius, [early] Bishop of Emesa, 1636
(Contends for conditional immortality; soul is asleep in death.)


John Jackson (1686-1763), rector of Rossington
A Dissertation on Matter and Spirit, 1735
The Belief of a Future State, 1745
A Clear Distinction Between True and False Religion, 1750
(Doctrine of eternal torment confuted and condemned.)

John Canne (1590-1667), printer of R. Overton's work; pastor, Broadmead Baptist Church,
Bristol Reference Bible, 1682
(Held essentially the same as R. Overton.)

Archbishop John Tillotson (1630-1694), of Canterbury
Works, 1683
I do not find that the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is anywhere expressly delivered in Scripture, but taken for granted.—Works, 1717 ed., vol. 1, p. 749

Dr. Issac Barrow (1630-1677), professor of Greek, Cambridge University
Duration of Future Punishment, in Works
(Maintained eternal life is conditional; held final destruction of wicked.)
 
Upvote 0

hraedisc

Veteran
Nov 6, 2002
1,243
20
Visit site
✟24,083.00
Faith
SDA
Eighteenth Century


Dr. William Coward (1657-1725), practicing physician, London
A Survey of the Search After Souls


579
Second Thoughts Concerning the Human Soul, demonstrating the Notion of Human Soul, as believ'd to be a Spiritual and Immortal Substance, united to a Human Body, to be plain Heathenish Invention, and not Consonant to the Principles of Philosophy, Reason or Religion, 1702

Further Thoughts Concerning the Human Soul, 1703


Henry Layton (1670-1706), Anglican, author of twelve books on conditionalism
Arguments and Replies, in a dispute concerning the nature of the Soul, 1703
A Search After Souls, 1706
(Contends that during life, we live and move in Christ; and when we die we rest and sleep in Him, in expectation of being raised at His second coming.)


Joseph Nicol Scott, M.D. (1703-1769), minister, assisting his father, Thomas Scott
Sermons Preached in Defence of All Religion, 1743 (Maintains—vol. 2, sermons 17, 18—that life is for the righteous only, with destruction for the wicked.)


Dr. Joseph Priestley (1733-1804), Unitarian, scientist, and philosopher
"Disquisitions Relating to Matter and Spirit," in Works, vol. 3
The History of Opinion Concerning the State of the Dead
(The "state of the soul in death" is one of utter insensibility, as much dead as the body itself while it continues in the state of death.)


580

Bishop Edmund Law (1703-1787), master of St. Peter's College, archdeacon of Stafford shire, bishop of Carlisle
Considerations on . . . the Theory of Religion, 1749
The State of the Dead
, 1765 (Appendix to the foregoing)
(Challenged doctrine of conscious intermediate state; held death to be a sleep, a negation of all life, thought, or action—a state of rest, silence, oblivion.)


Peter Pecard (c. 1718-1797), master of Magdalen College, Cambridge, dean of Peterborough
Observations on the Doctrine of an Intermediate State, Between Death and the Resurrection, 1756 (Immortality not innate, but a gift through Christ.)


Archdeacon Francis Blackburne (1705-1787), of Cleveland; rector of Richmond
A Short Historical View of the Controversy Concerning the Intermediate State, 1765
(Most complete history of the topic in 18th century.)


Bishop William Warburton (1698-1779), of Gloucester, theological controversialist
Divine Legation of Moses, 1738-41
(Styled militant believers in everlasting torment as the "unmerciful doctors.")

581
Samuel Bourn (1714-1796), dissenter, Rivington, Lancashire
Christian Doctrine of Future Punishment, 1759
(Stresses "total destruction, or annihilation or ceasing to exist" for the incorrigibly wicked.)
Dr. William Whiston (1667-1752), Baptist theologian, professor of mathematics, Cambridge University
The Eternity of Hell—Torments Considered, 1740
(Denied doctrine of eternal torment; held wicked to be totally destroyed.)
Dr. John Tottie (fl. 1772), canon of Christ Church, Oxford; archdeacon of Worcester
Sermons Preached Before University of Oxford, 1775
(Opposed doctrine of natural immortality of soul.)
Prof. Henry Dodwell (1641-1711), classical scholar, professor at Oxford (the "learned Dodwell")
Letter Concerning the Immortality of the Soul, 1703
The Natural Mortality of Human Souls, 1708
An Epistolary Discourse, Proving From the Scriptures and the First Fathers, That the Soul Is a Principle Naturally Mortal; but Immortalized Actually by the Pleasure of God, 1706
 
Upvote 0

hraedisc

Veteran
Nov 6, 2002
1,243
20
Visit site
✟24,083.00
Faith
SDA
Nineteenth Century


Bishop Timothy Kendrick Anglican
Sermons, 1805
(The soul of man dies with the body, and is restored to life at the resurrection and second advent.)


582

Dr. William Thomson (1819-1890), archbishop of York
The Thought of Death (Bampton Lecture), 1862
Life to the godless must be the beginning of destruction since nothing but God and that which pleases Him can permanently exist.


Dr. Edward White (1819-1887), Congregationalist, pastor of St. Paul's Chapel; chairman of the Congregational Union. For over forty years was leading advocate of conditional immortality.
Life in Christ, 1846
That Unknown Country (Symposium)
Immortality
, a Clerical Symposium


In 1883 he declared:
I steadfastly maintain, after forty years of study of the matter, that it is the notion of the infliction of a torment in body and soul that shall be absolutely endless, which alone gives a foot of standing ground to Ingersoll in America, or Bradlaugh in England. I believe more firmly than ever that it is a doctrine as contrary to every line of the Bible as it is contrary to every moral instinct of humanity.—Introduction to J. H. Pettingell's The Unspeakable Gift (1884), p. 22.


In the following year he added:
The Old Testament is consistent throughout with the belief of the eternal life of the servants of God, and of the eternal destruction of the wicked. And it is consistent, when taken in its simple sense with no other belief. . . .

The Gospels and Epistles with equal pertinacity adhere almost uniformly to language respecting the doom of the unsaved which taken in its simple sense, teaches, as does the Old Testament, that they shall die, perish, be destroyed, not see life, but suffer destruction, everlasting destruction, "destruction," says Christ, "of body and soul in Gehenna."—Homiletic Monthly (England), March, 1885.


583

Dr. John Thomas (1805-1871), editor, Apostolic Advocate; founder of Christadelphians
(Final extinction of wicked; immortality a gift through Christ.)

H. H. Dobney (1809-1883), Baptist pastor, Maidstone, England
Notes of Lectures on Future Punishment, 1844

Archbishop Richard Whately (1787-1863), of Dublin; Oxford professor and principal
A View of the Scriptural Revelations Concerning a Future State
(The wicked are never spoken of as being kept alive, but as forfeiting life. Taught their final destruction.)

Dean Henry Alford (1810-1871), of Canterbury, Biblical scholar
Greek New Testament
(Eternal fixity and duration belong only to those who are in accordance with God.)

James Panton Ham, Congregationalist minister, Bristol
Life and Death; or, The Theology of the Bible in Relation to Human Mortality, 1849

Charles F. Hudson (1821-1867), Congregationalist minister and Greek scholar
Debt and Grace as Related to the Doctrine of a Future Life, 1857
Christ Our Life. The Scriptural Argument for Immortality Through Christ Alone, 1860

584

Dr. Robert W. Dale (1829-1895), Congregationalist pastor, Carr's Lane Church, Birmingham; editor, The Congregationalist; chairman, Congregational Union of England and Wales; and president of the First International Council of Congregational Churches in 1891. He announced his acceptance of conditionalism in a paper before the Congregational Union of 1874.


Eternal life, as I believe, is the inheritance of those who are in Christ. Those who are not in Him will die the Second Death from which there will be no resurrection. . . . I am not conscious that they [the positions of Conditionalism] have at all impaired the authority in my teaching of any of the great central doctrines of the Christian faith. The doctrine of the Trinity remains untouched; and the doctrine of the incarnation, and the doctrine of the atonement in its evangelical sense, and the doctrine of justification by faith, and the doctrine of judgment by works, and the doctrine of regeneration have received, I believe, from these conclusions a new and intenser illustration.—Recorded in Freer's Edward White, His Life and Work (1902), pp. 354, 355.


Dean Frenerick W. Farrar (1831-1903), canon of Westminster Abbey; dean of Canterbury
Eternal Hope, 1877
Faith and Mercy

Mercy and Judgment
, 1881
(Denounced dogma of endless, conscious suffering; could not find one single text in all Scripture that, when fairly interpreted, teaches the common views about endless torment.)


Hermann Oshaulen (1796-1839), professor of theology at Konigsberg
Biblical Commentary on the New Testament, vol. 4, 1860


585
The doctrine of the immortality of the soul and the name are alike unknown in the entire Bible.—Biblical Commentary on the New Testament (1860), vol. 4, p. 381.


Canon Henry Constable (died 1894), prebendary of Cork, Ireland
Hades: or the Intermediate State of Man Restitution of All Things
The Duration and Nature of Future Punishment
(The immortality of the soul, and the name, are alike unknown in the entire Bible.)


William E. Gladstone (1809-1898), British prime minister and theologian
Studies Subsidiary to the Works of Bishop Butler, 1896 ed.


In a searching criticism of Bishop Butler's Analogy and its defense of innate immortality, Gladstone contended:
[It is only] from the time of Origen that we are to regard the idea of natural, as opposed to that of Christian, immortality as beginning to gain a firm foothold in the Christian Church.— Studies Subsidiary to the Works of Bishop Butler (1896 ed.), p. 184.

The doctrine of natural, as distinguished from Christian, immortality had not been subjected to the severer tests of wide publicity and resolute controversy, but had crept into the Church, by a back door as it were; by a silent though effective process; and was in course of obtaining a title by tacit prescription.— Ibid., p. 195.

Another consideration of the highest importance is that the natural immortality of the soul is a doctrine wholly unknown to the Holy Scriptures, and standing on no higher plane than that of an ingeniously sustained, but gravely and formidably contested, philosophical opinion.—Ibid., p. 197.

The character of the Almighty is rendered liable to charges


586
which cannot be repelled so long as the idea remains that there may by His ordinance be such a thing as never-ending punishment, but that it will have been sufficiently vindicated at the bar of human judgment, so soon as it has been established and allowed that punishment, whatever else it may be, cannot be never-ending.—Ibid., p. 241.


Joseph Parker (1830-1902), Congregationalist, pastor, the City Temple, London
People's Bible, vol. 1, on Genesis​
Glorious to me is this idea (so like all we know of the Divine goodness) of asking man whether he will accept life and be like God, or whether he will choose death and darkness for ever. God does not say to man, "I will make you immortal and indestructible whether you will or not; live for ever you shall." No; he makes him capable of living; he constitutes him with a view to immortality; he urges, beseeches, implores him to work out this grand purpose, assuring him, with infinite pathos, that he has no pleasure in the death of the sinner, but would rather that he should LIVE. A doctrine this which in my view simplifies and glorifies human history as related in the Bible. Life and death are not set before any beast; but life and death are distinctly set before man—he can live, he was meant to live, he is besought to live; the whole scheme of Providence and redemption is arranged to help him to live—why, then, will ye die?—The People's Bible, vol. 1, p. 126


Discussing the ultimate banishment of sin from the universe, Parker adds:
By destroying evil I do not mean locking it up by itself in a moral prison, which shall be enlarged through ages and generations until it shall become the abode of countless millions of rebels, but its utter, final, everlasting extinction, so that at last the universe shall be "without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing"— the pure home of a pure creation.—Ibid., p. 160.


Commenting on the "Destruction of Sodom," Parker denies that "in giving life God has put it absolutely out of his own power to reclaim or withdraw it." He comments on the implications:


587
Having once given you life you are as immortal as he himself is, and you can defy him to interfere with his own work! The doctrine seems to me to involve a palpable absurdity, and hardly to escape the charge of blasphemy. Throughout the whole Bible, God has reserved to himself the right to take back whatever he has given, because all his gifts have been offered upon conditions about which there can be no mistake.—Ibid., p. 222.

In this case [of Sodom] we have an instance of utter and everlasting destruction. We see here what is meant by "everlasting punishment," for we are told in the New Testament that "Sodom suffered the vengeance of eternal fire," that is of fire, which made an utter end of its existence and perfectly accomplished the purpose of God. The "fire" was "eternal," yet Sodom is not literally burning still; the smoke of its torment, being the smoke of an eternal fire, ascended up for ever and ever, yet no smoke now rises from the plain,—"eternal fire" does not involve the element of what we call "time": it means thorough, absolute, complete, final: that which is done or given once for all.—Ibid., p. 223.


Bishop John J. S. Perowne (1823-1904), Hebrew scholar, Anglican bishop of Worcester

Hulsean Lectures on Immortality​
, 1868 The immortality of the soul is neither argued nor affirmed in the Old Testament.—Hulsean Lectures on Immortality, p. 31.

The immortality of the soul is a phantom which eludes your eager grasp. Ibid.


Sir George Stokes (1820-1903), professor of mathematics, Cambridge; president of Royal Society; M. P.

That Unknown Country (A Symposium)​
, 1889
Immortality, a Clerical Symposium
It was natural that, after the forfeiture of immortality through transgression, man should seek to satisfy his craving for immortality by imagining that he had something immortal in his


588
nature. It is, then, to revelation that we must look, if we are to find out something about man's condition in the intermediate state.—That Unknown Country, p. 829.

Man's whole being was forfeited by the Fall, and the future life is not his birthright, but depends on a supernatural dispensation of grace. To look to man's bodily frame for indications of immortality, to look even to his lofty mental powers—lofty, indeed, but sadly misused—is to seek the living among the dead. Man must look not into himself, but out of himself for assurance of immortality.—Immortality, a Clerical Symposium, p. 123.

 
Upvote 0

hraedisc

Veteran
Nov 6, 2002
1,243
20
Visit site
✟24,083.00
Faith
SDA
19th century continued



Dr. W. A. Brown (1865-1943), of Union Seminary, New York

The Christian Hope​
, 1912​
(From Israel came the doctrine of the resurrection, and of the advent; from Greece, the doctrine of natural immortality.)

Dr. J. Ager Beet (1840-1924), Wesleyan professor



Last Things​

Preface to The Immortality of the Soul: A Protest, 5th ed., 1902​
The following pages are . . . a protest against a doctrine which, during long centuries, has been almost universally accepted as divine truth taught in the Bible, but which seems to me altogether alien to it in both phrase and thought, and derived only from Greek Philosophy. Until recent times, this alien doctrine has been comparatively harmless. But, as I have here shown, it is now producing most serious results. . . .

It will of course be said, of this as of some other doctrines, that, if not explicitly taught in the Bible, it is implied and assumed there. . . . They who claim for their teaching the authority of God must prove that it comes from Him. Such proof in this case, I have never seen.—The Immortality of the Soul (5th ed., 1902), Preface.



589

Dr. R. F. Weymouth (1822-1902), headmaster of Mill Hill School, translator of New Testament in Modern Speech
My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying to destroy or destruction, are explained to mean "maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence." To translate black as white is nothing to this.—Cited by Edward White in Life in Christ (1878), p. 365.


New Testament in Modern Speech, note on 1 Corinthians 15:18:

By "perish" the Apostle here apparently means "pass out of existence."*

On Hebrews 9:28:
The use in the N.T. of such words as "death," "destruction," "fire," "perish," to describe Future Retribution, point to the likelihood of fearful anguish, followed by extinction of being, as the doom which awaits those who by persistent rejection of the Saviour prove themselves utterly, and therefore irremediably, bad.


On Revelation 14:11:
There is nothing in this verse that necessarily implies an eternity of suffering. In a similar way the word "punishment" or "correction" in Matt. xxv. 46 gives in itself no indication of time.


On Revelation 20:10:
The Lake of fire: Implying awful pain and complete, irremediable ruin and destruction.*"


Dr. Lyman Abbott (1835-1922), Congregationalist pastor, and editor, Christian Union and The Outlook.

That Unknown Country (Symposium), 1889
Outside of the walls of Jerusalem, in the valley of Gehenna,


______
[size=-1]*Notes by Earnest Hampden-Cook, editor and reviser of third edition of The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Richard Francis Weymouth.[/size]

590
was kept perpetually burning a fire, on which the offal of the city was thrown to be destroyed. This is the hell fire of the New Testament. Christ warns his auditors that persistence in sin will make them offal to be cast out from the holy city, to be destroyed. The worm that dieth not was the worm devouring the carcasses, and is equally clearly a symbol not of torture but of destruction. —That Unknown Country, p. 72.

The notion that the final punishment of sin is continuance in sin and suffering is also based in part on, what seems to me, a false philosophy as to man. This philosophy is that man is by nature immortal. The conviction has grown on me, that according to the teaching both of science and Scripture, man is by nature an animal, and like all other animals mortal; that immortality belongs only to the spiritual life; and that spiritual life is possible only in communion and contact with God; that, in short, immortality was not conferred upon the race in creation whether it would or no, but is conferred in redemption, upon all those of the race who choose life and immortality through Jesus Christ our Lord.—Ibid.


Dr. Edward Beecher (1803-1895), Congregationalist theologian; president, Illinois College

Doctrine of Scriptural Retribution
It [the Bible] does not recognize, nay, it expressly denies the natural and inherent immortality of the soul. It assures us that God only hath immortality. (1 Tim. vi, 16). By this we understand that He has immortality in the highest sense—that is, inherent immortality. All existence besides Himself He created, and He upholds. Men are not, as Plato taught, self-existent, eternal beings, immortal in their very nature. . . . There is no inherent immortality of the soul as such. What God created He sustains in being, and can annihilate at will. Doctrine of Scriptural Retribution, p. 58.


Dr. Emmanuel Petavel-Ollieff (1836-1910), Swiss theologian; lecturer, University of Geneva
The Struggle for Eternal Life (La Fin du Mal)
The Extinction of Evil, 1889
The Problem of Immortality


591

Dr. Franz Delitasch (1813-1890), Hebraist, professor, Rostock, Erlangen, Leipsic

A New Commentary on Genesis
There is nothing in all the Bible which implies a native immortality.—Comment on Gen. 3:22.
From the Biblical point of view the soul can be put to death, it is mortal.—Comment on Num. 23:10.


Bishop Charles J. Ellicott (1820-1905), of Bristol, chairman, English Revision Committee

The Ceylon Evangelist, October, 1893
It seems inconceivable that when God is all in all, there should be some dark spot, where amid endless self-inflicted suffering, or in the enhancement of ever-enduring hate, rebel hands should be forever raised against the Eternal Father and God of Everlasting Love.—The Ceylon Evangelist, October, 1893.


Dr. George Dana Boardman (1828-1903), pastor, First Baptist Church of Philadelphia; established Boardman Foundation of Christian Ethics, University of Pennsylvania

Studies in the Creative Week, 1880
Writing on the issue of immortality he states:


Not a single passage of Holy Writ, from Genesis to Revelation, teaches, so far as I am aware, the doctrine of Man's natural immortality. On the other hand, Holy Writ emphatically declares that God only hath immortality (1 Tim. vi. 16): that is to say: God alone is naturally, inherently, in His own essence and nature, immortal.—Studies in the Creative Week, pp. 215, 216. If, then, Man is immortal, it is because immortality has been bestowed on him. He is immortal, not because he was created so, but because he has become so, deriving his deathlessness from Him Who alone hath immortality. And of this fact the Tree of


592
Life in the midst of the Garden seems to have been the appointed symbol and pledge. That this is the meaning of the Tree of Life is evident from the closing words of the Archive of the Fall: "Jehovah God said: 'Behold, the Man hath become as one of Us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he stretch forth his hand, and take also of the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever:' therefore Jehovah God drove the Man forth from Eden, and stationed on the East of the Garden the Cherubim, and the Flaming Sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the Tree of Life" (Gen. iii. 22-24). If Man is inherently immortal, what need was there of any Tree of Life at all? This much, then, seems to be clear: Immortality was somehow parabolically conditioned on the eating of this mysterious Tree, and the Immortality was for the entire Man-spirit and soul and body.—Ibid., p. 216.


H. Pettingell (1815-1887), Congregationalist, district secretary of Congregationalist Board of Foreign Missions

The Theological Trilemma (Endless Misery) Universal Salvation, or Conditional Immortality, 1878
Platonism versus Christianity, 1881
The Life Everlasting: What Is It? Whence Is It? Whose Is It? 1882
The Unspeakable Gift, 1884
It is worthy of remark, that the doctrine of eternal torment is found neither in the Apostles' Creed, nor the Nicene Creed, nor in two of the principal Confessions of Faith of the sixteenth century, viz., the otherwise rigid Creed of the French Reformed Church and the Thirty-nine Articles of the Anglican Church. And we believe that if this dogma has been handed down throughout the Protestant Churches, it is simply as an inheritance from the errors of the middle ages and from the speculative theories of Platonism. If we examine the writings of the earlier Fathers, Barnabas, Clement of Rome, Hermas, Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandria, we, find them all faithful to the apostolic doctrine of the


593
final destruction of the wicked. The dogma of everlasting torment did not creep into the Church until she yielded to the influence of Platonic philosophy.—Pettingell's, The Life Everlasting, pp. 66, 67.





Conferences on Conditionalism

In the nineteenth century, in addition to a great revival of individual exponents of conditionalism, conferences were held, such as the large London Conference on Conditional Immortality, May 15, 1876, with its published report. Convened under the chairmanship of Lieutenant—General Goodwyn, the attendance included such prominent adherents as Henry Constable, Edward White, Minton, Heard, Howard, Leask, Tinling, and Barrett, with messages from Dr. Petavel of Switzerland, Dr. Weymouth of Mill Hill School, et cetera. The gist of the conference report was: "The Bible nowhere teaches an inherent immortality; but teaches that it is the object of redemption to impart it. . . . The communication of it requires a regeneration of man, by the Holy Spirit, and a resurrection of the dead."—Page 28. It declared that the enjoyment of immortality is conditional; and that those who will not return to God will die and perish everlastingly. "Out of Christ there is no life eternal."

Dr. White there declared:
These are the ideas which have brought us together this morning. They are now firmly held by an immense multitude of thoughtful people of all lands, for although we are but a little company here assembled, we represent an immense army in Europe and America. These views are spreading every day amongst the churches; and number among their adherents some of the foremost men of science, theologians, missionaries, philologers, philosophers, preachers, and statesmen.—Report, London Conference on Conditional Immortality, pp. 28, 29.


594

Important Symposiums Appear

Several important symposiums—Life Everlasting (199 pages, 1882), with twenty contributors; That Unknown Country (943 pages, 1889), a pro and con discussion with 52 well-known contributors; and a third, Immortality: a Symposium, published in Britain —were all issued within a decade. These, appearing on both sides of the Atlantic, indicate the widespread interdenominational and international interest in this vital theme. Note the first one, in 1882, published in Philadelphia.

Pettingell's "The Life Everlasting" Symposium.—A 199-page symposium (appearing as a supplement to J. H. Pettingell's The Life Everlasting of 1882), was prepared by the following contributors:

Dr. Leonard Bacon, pastor, Park Congregational Church, Norwich, Conn.; Dr. Edward White, Congregationalist, St. Paul's Chapel, London; Samuel Minton, Anglican, Eaton Chapel, London; George R. Kramer, Independent pastor, Household of Faith Church, Wilmington, Del.; Joseph D. Wilson, rector, St. John's Reformed Episcopal Church, Chicago; A. A. Phelps, pastor, Congregational Church, Rochester, New York; editor, The Bible Banner; Dr. A. M. B. Graham, president Arkansas Christian Conference and president Christian Temperance Union of Arkansas; William B. Hart, layman, Philadelphia; Dr. Willam Leask, Congregationalist pastor, Maberly Chapel, London; editor, The Rainbow; Dr. Emmanuel Petavel (Petavel-Olliff), Geneva, Switzerland, author of La Fin du Mal, translated into English as The Struggle for Eternal

595

Life; J. H. Kellogg, M.D., superintendent of Battle Creek, Michigan, Sanitarium, author of The Soul and the Resurrection; Prof. D. H. Chase, Methodist, Middletown, Conn.; Charles Byse, pastor, Free Evangelical Church, Brussels, Belgium, and editor of Eglise Chretienne Missionnaire Belge and Journal du Protantisme Francoise; William Lang, author, Edinburgh; M. W. Strang, editor, The Messenger, Glasgow; Prof. Hermann Schutz, University of Gottingen, Germany, author of Die Voraussetzungen der christlichen Lehre von der Unsterblichkeit (The Principles of the Christian Doctrine of Immortality); Dr. Clement M. Butler, rector of Trinity Church, Washington, D.C., and professor of history, Episcopal Divinity School, Philadelphia; Dr. Matson Meier-Smith, Congregationalist pastor and professor of homiletics and pastoral cares, Episcopal Divinity School, Philadelphia; Canon Henry Constable, Anglican author, London; Dr. C. R. Hendrickson, pastor, Baptist Church, Jackson, Tenn.; Dr. W. R. Huntington, rector, All—Saints Church, Worcester, Mass.

Dr. Phelps' Indictment on Innate Immortality.—Dr. Phelps, in discussing "Is Man by Nature Immortal?" (pp. 639-650), presents twelve counts against the doctrine of innate immortality:

1. It has a bad history; it was introduced by the serpent in Eden, and springs from a heathen philosophy; it is not found in Jewish belief; is a compromise with Platonism; adopted and authenticated by the Church of Rome.

2. It is at variance with the scriptural account of man's creation.

3. It clashes with the Bible statement of man's fall.

596 4. It is opposed to the scriptural doctrine of death. 5. It is equally opposed to physiological facts.

6. Immortality is nowhere ascribed to man in his present state of existence.

7. Immortality is a blessing to be sought, and not a birthright legacy.

8. Inherent immortality is opposed to the scriptural doom of the wicked.

9. It supersedes the necessity of a resurrection.

10. It reduces the judgment scene to a solemn farce. 11. It subverts the Bible doctrine of Christ's second coming.

12. It is a prolific source of error—Mohammedanism, Shakerism, Swedenborgianism, Spiritualism, Purgatory, Mariolatry, Universalism, Eternal-Tormentism.

 
Upvote 0

hraedisc

Veteran
Nov 6, 2002
1,243
20
Visit site
✟24,083.00
Faith
SDA
Twentieth Century

Canon William H. M. Hay Atken (1841-1927), Anglican mission organizer
The doctrine of Eternal Torment has lost its hold on the common sense and moral sensibilities of mankind. People don't and won't believe that an infinitely good and merciful God can consign His own offspring (Acts xvii. 28, 29) to measureless aeons of torture in retribution for the sins and weaknesses o£ a few swiftly passing years here on earth.—Foreward, Eric Lewis' Life and Immortality, 1949, p. f.


Eric Lewis (1864-1948), Cambridge University, missionary to Sudan and India

Life and Immortality, 1949 Christ, the First Fruits, 1949 Lewis' summary:
1. That man is mortal. That immortality is not his by nature, but a gift of God to him in Christ, conditioned on faith and


597
obedience, the earnest of which immortality, is the indwelling Spirit of God. And this immortality is put on at the resurrection.

2. That at death, man's soul, his physical organism, dies, and the man returns to dust.

3. That at death, his spirit, which is not a personal entity apart from his body, returns to God who gave it, while the man himself passes into unconscious sleep until the resurrection.

4. That at resurrection, God calls the dead man back to life, breathing into him again His Spirit. . . . The resurrection body, given to the righteous at the coming of Christ, will be a spiritual body, a glorified body, like His own after His resurrection.

There will be a resurrection unto judgment, as well as unto life. Those whose names are not found written in the book of life, will be cast into the lake of fire, there to perish ultimately, burned up like the chaff. How long their sufferings will last, is known to God alone; His judgment will be according to the desert of each. This is "the second death," from which there will be no resurrection.—Christ the First Fruits, p. 79.


Dr. William Temple (1881-1944), late Archbishop of Canterbury, Primate of Great Britain

Christian Faith and Life, 1931; 16th impression, 1954
Drew Lecture on Immortality,
1931
Nature, Man and God,
1953
[The] doctrine of the future life [will] involve our first disentangling the authentic teaching of the classical Scriptures from accretions which very quickly began to obscure this.—Nature, Man and God, p. 460.

Man is not immortal by nature or of right; but he is capable of immortality and there is offered to him resurrection from the dead and life eternal if he will receive it from God and on God's terms.—Ibid., p. 472.

Are there not, however, many passages which speak of the endless torment of the lost? No; as far as my knowledge goes, there is none at all.—Ibid., p. 464.

After all, annihilation is an everlasting punishment though it is not unending torment.—Ibid.


598
One thing we can say with confidence: everlasting torment is to be ruled out. If men had not imported the Greek and unbiblical notion of the natural indestruction of the individual soul, and then read the New Testament with that already in their minds, they would have drawn from it a belief, not in everlasting torment, but in annihilation. It is the fire that is called aeonian, not the life cast into it.—Christian Faith and Life, p. 81.

How can there be the Paradise for any while there is Hell, conceived as unending torment, for some? Each supposedly damned soul was born into the world as a mother's child, and Paradise cannot be Paradise for her if her child is in such a Hell.—Ibid., p. 454.


Dr. Gerardus van Der Leeuw (1890-1950), professor,University of Groningen

Onsterfelijkheid of Opstanding (Immortality or Resurrection), 1947
After quoting Eccl. 3:19-21, he comments:
[Innate] Immortality is a conception which fits into the philosophy of pantheism. With death belongs not immortality, but Resurrection.—Onsterfeliikheid of Opstanding, p. 30.

The Church has—no matter how much Hellenized it may be in doctrine and practice—always maintained the resurrection of the body. . . . The body dies, death is not being denied at all. Even the Spirit, the soul that I am, will not exist. The soul will also die. But the whole life of man will be renewed by God. God will raise me up "in the latter day."—Ibid., p. 32.

God alone is immortal (1 Tim. 6:16). To man he has given the promise of Resurrection. . . .

Creation will change into re-creation. And re-creation is resurrection, a raising up by God.—Ibid., p. 36.

Many preachers of recent times are rather hesitant to preach about immortality. But in former days, when preaching about eternal life, it was without effort that they dwelt upon imaginations of a corruptible body and an immortal soul. The older devotional books and church hymns are full of it. Even now people in the house of bereavement and on the graveyards are being comforted from the same source—yet these representations


599
are not in any respect Christian, but purely Grecian and contrary to the essence of Christian faith.—Ibid., p. 20.


Dr. Aubrey R. Vine (1900- ), editor, The Congregational Quarterly; professor at Yorkshire United Independent College

An Approach to Christology, 1948
The natural immortality of the spirit is a Greek rather than a Christian concept.—An Approach to Christology (1948), p. 314.

Against the idea of the natural immortality of the spirit we must set the fact that God is the only self-existent and that nothing exists or continues to exist except by His grace and will, within this schema or within any other. God only is exoschematic. When we use the word "immortal," therefore, of anything but God, we must always realize that none but God is immortal by his own nature and without qualification.—Ibid., p. 315.

"Immortal" should only be applied to a human spirit if we clearly recognize that it is only immortal at God's grace and pleasure. Only God is immortal by His own nature and without qualification.—Ibid., p. 311, footnote.


Dr. Martin J. Heinecken (n.d.), professor of systematic theology, Lutheran Theological Seminary, Philadelphia

Basic Christian Teachings, 1949 Speaking of man as a unit, he declares:
In the Biblical account of creation we are told that God formed man of the dust and of the earth, and that he then breathed into his nostrils and man became a living soul. This is usually interpreted to mean that God made a soul, which is the real person, and that he then gave this soul a temporary home in a body, made of the dust of the earth. But this is a false dualism. . . . Man must be considered a unity. Basic Christian Teachings, pp. 36, 37.

We are dealing with a unified being, a person, and not with something that is called a soul and which dwells in a house called


600
the body, as though the body were just a tool for the soul to employ, but not really a part of the person.—Ibid., p. 38.


Coming then to the issue of the immortality of the soul he says:
It is held by some people that there is within every man an unchanging and indestructible core, immortal in its own right. It is unaffected by time; it had no beginning, neither can it have an end. It has always been and always will be. It came into this world of changing things from the realm of eternity and will return to it.—Ibid., p. 133.

The Christian view is by no means to be identified with the above belief in the immortality of the soul. The Christian belief is in the immortality of the God—relationship, and in the resurrection. The Christian dualism is not that of soul and body, eternal mind and passing things, but the dualism of Creator and creature. Man is a person, a unified being, a center of responsibility, standing over against his Creator and Judge. He has no life or immortality within himself. He came into being through God's creative power. He spends as many years on this earth as in God's providence are allotted to him. He faces death as the wages of sin.— Ibid., pp. 133, 134.

Men have speculated like this: At death the soul is separated from the body. It appears then before God in a preliminary judgment (mentioned nowhere in Scripture) and enters into a preliminary state either of blessedness or condemnation. Then, when the last trumpet sounds, the body is resurrected and rejoined with the soul, and complete once more, the reunited body and soul appear for the final, public judgment scene, from there to enter either into final bliss or final condemnation. It is no wonder that, with this view, men have had little use for a resurrection, and have finally dropped the notion altogether and have been satisfied with the redemption of only the soul.—Ibid.. p. 135.

To die then means to pass to the resurrection and the judgment at the end of time. Even if someone should say that all men sleep until the final trumpet sounds, what is the passage of time for those who are asleep? The transition from the moment of death to the resurrection would still be instantaneous for them. It would be no different from going to bed at night and being waked in the morning.—Ibid., p. 136.


601

David R Davies (1889- ), rector, St. Mary Magdalen, St. Leonard-on-Sea, Britain

The Art of Dodging Repentance, 1952
The soul of man is not necessarily automatically immortal. It is capable of being destroyed. The Bible offers no ground whatsoever for believing that the soul is immune from death and destruction. The soul can be destroyed.

The immortality of the soul is not a Biblical doctrine, but Greek philosophy. The Biblical doctrine about the soul is the resurrection from the dead. Man is a created being. God created him out of nothing. Man was created for immortality, but by his own rebellion against God he made himself mortal.—The Art of Dodging Repentance (1952), p. 84.

The idea of the immortality of the soul derives from Greek philosophy which conceived the after-life of Hades, a ghostly, shadowy underworld, in which the soul lived a twilight existence. We have translated the Greek word, Hades, by our English word Hell, which we think of as a place of pain and torment. But the Greek Hades was not a place of torment. Hell as torment is derived more from the Hebrew Gehenna than from the Greek Hades, which was a lower, shadowy existence, denuded of passion and suffering. It was the product of the Greek view of men as a compound of matter and soul, which death severed, releasing the soul from the prison-house of matter into an independent existence.

The Hebrew view of man was entirely different. In the Bible man is regarded as a unity of "life" or spirit, which manifests itself as both soul and body. Since man has made himself mortal, his soul, in consequence, also partakes of mortality. Man is not a compound of two separate entities, matter and spirit, but a unity of spirit functioning as matter and soul. It is the unity that is mortal.—Ibid., pp. 84, 85.


Dr. Basiil F. C. Atkinson, under—librarian of Cambridge University

The Pocket Commentary of the Bible, Part One: Book of Genesis, 1954
Comment on Gen. 2:7:

602
It has sometimes been thought that the impartation of the life principle, as it is brought before us in this verse, entailed immortality of the spirit or soul. It has been said that to be made in the image of God involves immortality. The Bible never says so. If it involves immortality, why does it not also involve omniscience or omnipresence, or any other quality or attribute of the Infinite? Why should one alone be singled out? The breath of life was not breathed into man's heart, but into his nostrils. It involved physical life. Throughout the Bible man, apart from Christ, is conceived of as made of dust and ashes, a physical creature, to whom is lent by God a principle of life. The Greek thinkers tended to think of man as an immortal soul imprisoned in a body. This emphasis is the opposite to that of the Bible, but has found a wide place in Christian thought.—The Pocket Commentary of the Bible, Part 1, Book of Genesis, p. 32

 
Upvote 0

hraedisc

Veteran
Nov 6, 2002
1,243
20
Visit site
✟24,083.00
Faith
SDA
20th century continued

Dr. Emil Brunner (1889- ), professor of systematic and practical theology, University of Zurich, guest professor at Princeton, and International Christian University, Tokyo

Eternal Hope (English translation by Harold Knight), 1954



After discussing the widespread, historic concept of the "survival of the soul after death" as "the separation of soul from body," he states:
For the history of Western thought, the Platonic teaching of the immortality of the soul became of special significance. It penetrated so deeply into the thought of Western man because, although with certain modifications, it was assimilated by Christian theology and church teaching, was even declared by the Lateran Council of 1512 [1513] to be a dogma, to contradict which was a heresy. Eternal Hope, p. 100.






Then he adds:
Only recently, as a result of a deepened understanding of the New Testament, have strong doubts arisen as to its compatibility with the Christian conception of the relation between God and man.—Ibid.





603



According to Platonism:
The body is mortal, the soul immortal. The mortal husk conceals this eternal essence which in death is freed from its outer shell.—Ibid., p. 101.






After observing that "this dualistic conception of man does not correspond to the Christian outlook," he then remarks:
Since this mode of robbing evil of its sting runs necessarily parallel with the rendering innocuous of death through the teaching about immortality, this solution of the problem of death stands in irreconcilable opposition to Christian thought.—Ibid.






Commenting further on the "doctrine of the immortality of the soul" (p. 105), which medieval Christianity "took over" from "Greek philosophy," he observes that it was "utterly foreign to its [Christianity's] own essential teaching." And he adds:
The opinion that we men are immortal because our soul is of an indestructible, because divine, essence is, once for all, irreconcilable with the Biblical view of God and man.—Ibid., pp. 105, 106.


The philosophical belief in immortality is like an echo, both reproducing and falsifying the primal Word of this divine Creator. It is false because it does not take into account the real loss of this original destiny through sin.—Ibid., p. 107.



Dr. Reinhold Niebuhr (1892- ), professor at Union Theological Seminary

The Nature and Destiny of Man (Scribners), 1955 (Gifford Lectures at Edinburgh, 1939)

After contrasting the "classical" view of man, of Graeco-Roman antiquity, and the "Biblical" view, Niebuhr states that the two "were actually merged in the thought of medieval Catholicism."—The Nature and Destiny of Man, vol. 1, p. 5. The classical view, that the

604



"mind" or "spirit" is "immortal" was inseparably tied to the dualistic concept of man (p. 7). But among the Hebrews, he observes,
the concept of an immortal mind in a mortal body remains unknown to the end.—Ibid., p. 13.


Origen's Platonism completely destroys the Biblical sense of the unity of man.—Ibid., p. 153, footnote.

Gregory's [of Nyssa] thoroughly Platonic conception of the relation of the soul to the body is vividly expressed in his metaphor of the gold and the alloy.—Ibid., p. 172.

The idea of the resurrection of the body is a Biblical symbol in which modern minds take the greatest offense and which has long since been displaced in most modern versions of the Christian faith by the idea of the immortality of the soul. The latter idea is regarded as a more plausible expression of the hope of everlasting life.—Ibid., vol. 2, p. 294.

The resurrection is not a human possibility in the sense that the immortality of the soul is thought to be so. All the plausible and implausible proofs for the immortality of the soul are efforts on the part of the human mind to master and to control the consummation of life. They all try to prove in one way or another that an eternal element in the nature of man is worthy and capable of survival beyond death."—Ibid., p. 295.

The Christian hope of the consummation of life and history is less absurd than alternate doctrines which seek to comprehend and to effect the completion of life by some power or capacity inherent in man and his history.—Ibid., p. 298.







607
DR. D. R. G. Owen, professor of religious knowledge, Trinity College; lecturer, philosophy and religion, Wycliffe College, Toronto


Body and Soul, 1956
The points at issue revolve around the concepts of "body" and "soul." The "religious" anthropology [in contradistinction to the Biblical] adopts an extreme dualism, asserting that the body and the soul are two different and distinct substances. It claims that the soul is divine in origin and immortal by nature and that the corruptible body is the source of all sin and wickedness. It recommends the cultivation of the soul in detachment from the body, and advocates the suppression of all physical appetites and natural impulses. It regards the body as the tomb or prison of the soul from which it longs to get free. Finally, it tends to suppose that the soul, even in its earth-bound existence, is entirely independent of the body and so enjoys a freedom of choice and action untrammeled by the laws that reign in the physical realm.—Body and Soul, p. 26. (Copyright, 1956, by U. L. Jenkins, The Westminster Press. Used by permission.)


If we turn to the Bible, however, as we shall later, we find that a quite different view of man is assumed throughout. Here





608
there is no dualism and scarcely any idea of the immortality of a detached and independent soul.—Ibid., p. 29.


Plato remains to the end an antiphysical dualist. It is he, and his followers, who most of all are responsible for imposing the "religious" anthropology on Western thought.—Ibid., p. 41.

This latter belief especially—the idea that the soul can exist apart from the body—obviously implies some form of body—soul dualism. . . . This body-soul dualism was a necessary implicate of the Greek doctrine of the immortality of the soul.—Ibid., p. 59.

Now there are a few isolated Scriptural passages that may suggest the idea of the immortality of the soul in the Greek sense, but the normal Biblical point of view is quite different: in the New Testament it is the resurrection of the body that is stressed, and this doctrine is almost a direct contradiction of the "Orphic" eschatology. Why, then, did the Fathers lean toward this largely un-Biblical notion?—Ibid.

The fact is that the Fathers' adoption of the "religious" idea of the immortality of the detachable soul forced them into the doctrine of body-soul dualism.—Ibid., p. 61.

The idea of the intermediate state eventually developed into the doctrine of purgatory.—Ibid.

The Fathers were no doubt impressed by the force of the arguments advanced by Greek philosophy to prove the immortality of the soul. And, finally, of course, the idea of an intermediate state gave the human being another chance to be purged of his sins before the last judgment. It was the development of this notion that led to the doctrine of purgatory, with all the superstitions and objectionable practices that eventually made up the purgatorial system and, in the end, furnished part of the immediate cause of the Reformation.—Ibid., p. 62.

Their [Church Fathers] resulting anthropology was a mixture of Biblical and Greek ideas. They added to the New Testament doctrine of the resurrection of the body the idea of an intermediate state in which the soul exists apart from the body, awaiting its recovery at the end.—Ibid., p. 77.

The "religious" anthropology, as far as Western thought is concerned, is Greek and not Biblical in origin. It is also typical of Eastern religions in general, such as Hinduism and Buddhism. It seems to be characteristically "religious," and for this and other reasons has tended to creep into and corrupt the Christian view of man. This happened, as we saw, in the patristic and medieval





609
periods, and modern Catholicism and Protestantism have tended to perpetuate this early mistake. Ibid., p. 163.


The Biblical view of man is entirely different from the "religious."—Ibid., p. 164.

The idea of the immortality of the soul in the Greek sense may be suggested in some passages in the wisdom literature and is definitely found in places in the Apocrypha. This line of thought was later developed in the Hellenistic Judaism of the Alexandrine School, in the inter-Testamental period, of which the religious philosopher Philo is the outstanding example.—Ibid., p. 178.


Such are some of the host of advocates of conditional immortality, or life only in Christ, and/or of the ultimate destruction of unrepentant sinners.

This article was written in the 1950's, so it doesn't get more recent. The source was cited in the link posted a few posts ago.
 
Upvote 0

deu58

Senior Veteran
Dec 12, 2003
3,099
75
69
Philippines
Visit site
✟26,169.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hello<><

Well, an impressive array of human scholarship but what happened to these raised saints?

Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Did they all just crawl out of their graves to take a little stroll and hop back in them again?

SDA's say that Jesus observed the Sabbath by sleeping in the tomb but this is not supported by scripture.

1pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



According to Peter although the flesh of our Lord lay dead and sleeping in the tomb on the Sabbath day his Spirit was wide awake and bushy tailed preaching to the spirits whose were lost in the Great Deluge. I know there are some who say these are Fallen Angels but I do not personally agree. But any way you look at it both body and soul were not asleep in grave. The flesh was dead, the Spirit was alive. The act of resurrection was the recombining of the living spirit with the dead flesh.

yours in Christ
deu58
 
Upvote 0

@@Paul@@

The Key that Fits:Acts 28
Mar 24, 2004
3,050
72
55
Seattle
✟26,081.00
Faith
Baptist
PaladinValer said:
Body-Soul-Spirit is an apollinarian heresy.

Apollinaris according to what I've learned was a Chiliast. In addition, modern day premillennialism really is just a simply modified verion of Chiliasm, just like Semi-Pelagialism is with full Pelagialism.
I guess i'm a Chiliast apollinarian heretic... :)
 
Upvote 0

deu58

Senior Veteran
Dec 12, 2003
3,099
75
69
Philippines
Visit site
✟26,169.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hi @@paul@@

^_^
So what? I like chili to. Texas style.

What is a chiliast? I beleive we are created as a three part being. Flesh Mind and Spirit. We are created in The image of God so I see know problem with with being created in three parts because to me it represents the trinity.

God the Father=mind
God the Son= flesh
God the Holy Spirit= spirit.

Yours in Christ
DEU58
 
Upvote 0

PaladinValer

Traditional Orthodox Anglican
Apr 7, 2004
23,587
1,245
44
Myrtle Beach, SC
✟30,305.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
deu58 said:
Hi @@paul@@

^_^
So what? I like chili to. Texas style.

What is a chiliast? I beleive we are created as a three part being. Flesh Mind and Spirit. We are created in The image of God so I see know problem with with being created in three parts because to me it represents the trinity.

God the Father=mind
God the Son= flesh
God the Holy Spirit= spirit.

Yours in Christ
DEU58
To be made in the Image of God is to have the ability to comprehend complex abstract thought and have an advanced sense of consciousness. We are the only known species to possess these qualities; even the Neanderthal weren't as advanced (close however).
 
Upvote 0

@@Paul@@

The Key that Fits:Acts 28
Mar 24, 2004
3,050
72
55
Seattle
✟26,081.00
Faith
Baptist
deu58 said:
Hi @@paul@@

^_^
So what? I like chili to. Texas style.

What is a chiliast? I beleive we are created as a three part being. Flesh Mind and Spirit. We are created in The image of God so I see know problem with with being created in three parts because to me it represents the trinity.

God the Father=mind
God the Son= flesh
God the Holy Spirit= spirit.

Yours in Christ
DEU58
A chiliast is a heretic... didn't you get that part?....... it's someone who believes in the premillenial return of Christ. i.e. a literal millenial reign of Christ on earth.
Body>Soul>Spirit... I totally agree!! Which is why i don't have a problem interpreting...
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​

My 2c... The soul sleeps and awaits resurrection... The spirit does something else... :)
 
Upvote 0

statrei

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2004
2,649
30
Indiana/Virginia
✟3,125.00
Faith
SDA
I have generally found that discussions on the state of man while in death are conducted at a purely theoretically level without considering the practical implications. This is unfortunate for it enables each side in the discussion to practically claim victory without settling the underlying controversy, thus making the Christian faith look rather foolish.

Darius
 
Upvote 0

deu58

Senior Veteran
Dec 12, 2003
3,099
75
69
Philippines
Visit site
✟26,169.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hi Paladin

To be made in the Image of God is to have the ability to comprehend complex abstract thought and have an advanced sense of consciousness. We are the only known species to possess these qualities; even the Neanderthal weren't as advanced (close however).

I am sure you are being brief in your description but to me there is much more involved, Not only are we created in his image we are created equal. I travel a lot and although a US citizen I live in Asia. It is obvious that all people are not created physically equal so it must be at a different level that we are equal. That is at the spiritual level. Every where I have ever been people are the same. We all desire peace, Justice fair treatment, security, love etc. The cultures may very but the part of us that is our true self is the same

Even if some one steals from a thief the thief still wants justice for himself and that is what separates the good from the evil. The good people want those things for themselves and everybody else and if truly necessary many will sacrifice themselves to achieve a common good for all
whereas an evil person only wants these things for themselves and if necessary will sacrifice many to achieve these things for themselves.

We are given this time to chose whom we will serve. And when our flesh dies it will return to whence it came. Some to await judgment for destruction and some to await judgment for eternal life with God the father.

Ec 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The Bible is plain in many places that the spirit is not in the grave with flesh.

yours in Christ
deu58
 
Upvote 0

hraedisc

Veteran
Nov 6, 2002
1,243
20
Visit site
✟24,083.00
Faith
SDA
deu58 said:
Hello<><

According to Peter although the flesh of our Lord lay dead and sleeping in the tomb on the Sabbath day his Spirit was wide awake and bushy tailed preaching to the spirits whose were lost in the Great Deluge. I know there are some who say these are Fallen Angels but I do not personally agree. But any way you look at it both body and soul were not asleep in grave. The flesh was dead, the Spirit was alive. The act of resurrection was the recombining of the living spirit with the dead flesh.

yours in Christ
deu58
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

There has been considerable misunderstanding of these verses of Scripture. It has been preached that Christ actually descended into the lower regions of the earth and preached to lost souls who were in prison in some type of purgatory or limbo. This is very far from what the text actually says. Let's look at it closely now and get the real message of these verses. It says, "Christ also hath once suffered for sins ... that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached."

First of all, notice how Christ preached to those spirits in prison. He did it by the Spirit, and that word is capitalized in your Bible. It actually refers to the Holy Spirit. So whatsoever Christ did in preaching during this period of time, He did it through or by the Holy Spirit.

With that in view, let's ask this: "When was the preaching done?" The answer is plainly given in verse 20: "when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing." So the preaching was actual done while the ark was being built--during the preaching Noah to that antediluvian world. Now, one more question: "To whom was the preaching done?" The text says here "unto the spirits in prison." Throughout the Bible we find this terminology used in describing those who are bound in the prison house of sin. David prayed, "Bring my soul out of prison." Psalm 142:7. Paul spoke of his experience in these words, "bringing me into captivity to the law of sin." What Peter is telling us here is simply that Christ, through the Holy Spirit, was present while Noah preached; Christ was there through the Holy Spirit to speak conviction to their hearts and appeal to them to come into the ark. There is absolutely nothing in this text to indicate that Jesus left His body during the time He was dead to go to any subterranean place to minister to wicked spirits. The three questions are clearly answered in the text itself: (1) that He preached by the Holy Spirit, (2) He did it while the ark was preparing, and (3) He did it to the spirits in prison, or to those individuals whose sinful lives were bound in the prison house of sin.
 
Upvote 0

hraedisc

Veteran
Nov 6, 2002
1,243
20
Visit site
✟24,083.00
Faith
SDA
deu58 said:
Hello<><

Well, an impressive array of human scholarship but what happened to these raised saints?

Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Mt 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Did they all just crawl out of their graves to take a little stroll and hop back in them again?

deu58

As Christ arose, He brought from the grave a multitude of captives. The earthquake at His death had rent open their graves, and when He arose, they came forth with Him. They were those who had been co-laborers with God, and who at the cost of their lives had borne testimony to the truth. Now they were to be witnesses for Him who had raised them from the dead.

During His ministry, Jesus had raised the dead to life. He had raised the son of the widow of Nain, and the ruler's daughter and Lazarus. But these were not clothed with immortality. After they were raised, they were still subject to death. But those who came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave. These, said Christ, are no longer the captives of Satan; I have redeemed them. I have brought them from the grave as the first fruits of My power, to be with Me where I am, nevermore to see death or experience sorrow. These went into the city, and appeared unto many, declaring, Christ has risen from the dead, and we be risen with Him. Thus was immortalized the sacred truth of the resurrection. The risen saints bore witness to the truth of the words, "Thy dead men shall live, together with My dead body shall they arise." Their resurrection was an illustration of the fulfillment of the prophecy, "Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead." Isa. 26:19.
 
Upvote 0

herev

CL--you are missed!
Jun 8, 2004
13,619
935
60
✟43,600.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
<>< said:
These 2 beliefs are biblical and were believed before Seventh-day Adventists were denominated.

Truth is not, and never has been, established by human majorities. Theological truth is ever, and only, based upon the immutable Word of God and determined by its inspired precepts and principles. But always there have been godly and scholarly champions of genuine truth. And this is definitely the case with the doctrine of immortality in, and only in and through, Jesus Christ at His second advent.

The next posts are from this site:

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/q44.htm
Ahh, I believe all you have said in this post--maybe a first;) but, which is the immutable Word of God? As I understand my Bible history, there are no orignials left and there are many translations based on many manuscripts?
thanks
 
Upvote 0

seangoh

Veteran
Dec 10, 2002
1,295
39
45
Singapore
Visit site
✟24,161.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
statrei said:
I have generally found that discussions on the state of man while in death are conducted at a purely theoretically level without considering the practical implications. This is unfortunate for it enables each side in the discussion to practically claim victory without settling the underlying controversy, thus making the Christian faith look rather foolish.

Darius

AMEN!
 
Upvote 0

deu58

Senior Veteran
Dec 12, 2003
3,099
75
69
Philippines
Visit site
✟26,169.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hello<><

Your conclusions sound more like damage control to support your doctrine than Biblical truth. They are disjointed and make little sense.

1pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

2pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

We see that there is a spiritual prison called hell for Angels so why does it seem so impossible that there is a spiritual prison for unsaved humans?

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

When Satan is bound he is in prison in the pit.

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


The Greek for death
qavnatoß Thanatos (than'-at-os);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 2288


the death of the body
that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
with the implied idea of future misery in hell
the power of death
since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin
metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name,
the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell
the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

a/&dhß Hades (hah'-dace);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Location, Strong #: 86

The Greek for hell
name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
KJV Word Usage and Count
hell 10
grave 1


Although many do not wish to accept it for various reasons Jesus plainly taught that there is a place of suffering for the lost.

Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Jesus gives us a parable describing hell. A place that in another place he does confirm exists.

Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Hell is not the lake of fire.

But those who came forth from the grave at Christ's resurrection were raised to everlasting life. They ascended with Him as trophies of His victory over death and the grave.
So these people are exempt from the Investigative Judgment that your church teaches began Oct 22 1844? Interesting view here. Some are awake some are asleep. Some must be judged some do not.

Mr 9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

Mr 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

So what is happening here? This is before the crucifixion and Moses did die but here he is talking to Jesus. Now Moses sinned and was not permitted to enter the promised land because of that sin. But here it is obvious he is not sleeping and apparently his sin had been forgiven him long before 1844.

yours in Christ
deu58 :wave:
 
Upvote 0

hraedisc

Veteran
Nov 6, 2002
1,243
20
Visit site
✟24,083.00
Faith
SDA
Moses and Elijah exist in a body, not out of a body. They were God's special cases, along with Enoch. Moses was resurrected, Enoch and Elijah were taken alive. Enoch and Elijah never slept in the grave, as did Moses.

My position is rock solid. Immortality is ONLY given as a GIFT. Sinful Man doesn't possess it naturally.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.