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Is creationism pseudo science?

S

solja247

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Discussing evolution/creation has led me to wonder is creation pseudo science?

Why or why not?

~

Many people who argue creationism are not even scientists. A lot of creationists become theistic evolutionists because of the evidence. You cant just shout 'Evolution is a lie'.

This should be interesting.
progress.gif
 

Papias

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Creationism does appear to be pseudoscience, based on how it compares to the usual ways to recognize pseudoscience.

They include:

  • Use of untestable claims
  • use of vague and undefined terms (like "kind")
  • looking for confirmation instead of refutation ("look at how well all creatures fit in their environments!")
  • Evading Peer review (many examples - especially the sternburg case)
  • Lack of Progress (Creationists don't agree on the basics, like the age of the earth, or the date of the flood, or on and on)
  • moving the goalposts
  • Imagining a conspiracy against them
  • Ignoring contrary evidence
  • Outright hoaxes that are still used
and so on. Some of these are discussed in more detail here: Pseudoscience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Creationism is specifically mentioned as a pseudoscience here:
Creation Science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course, wikipedia is not the only source of information, but as we saw, creationism fits the description. In fact, in logic and other classes, creationism is often used as a good example of a pseudoscience, specifically because it hits all the marks very well.

Papias
 
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marlowe007

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Many people who argue creationism are not even scientists.

Yeah, but many are scientists, and bloody good ones too. Like John Sanford of Cornell University for example, who helped to pioneer genetic engineering. If you wanna play the qualifications (fallacy of authority) game, creationists could easily and quite correctly point out that some of the greatest evolutionary biologists were not, in fact, biologists.

Basically, an origins explanation doesn't fit the bill for science if it can't give us a falsifiable hypothesis; an example of something unfalsifiable would be Philip Gosse's Omphalos hypothesis. An equivalent medical theory might be that disease really IS caused by demons, and that the magnified levels of bacteria you see in infections are really caused by demon poop, and that antibiotics work becuase demons suffer from a phobia of antibiotics. There is simply no logical way you can refute the previous sentence. Medicine works, all right, but our assumptions about the causes of disease are off-base - and there is no way to use science to prove, negatively or positively, that the "demon hypothesis" is right or wrong. Science can't test the supernatural, period.
 
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sfs

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Yeah, but many are scientists, and bloody good ones too. Like John Sanford of Cornell University for example, who helped to pioneer genetic engineering.
The small number of creationists who are good scientists have a tendency to be good scientists in different areas than the ones they make their creationist arguments in. Sanford, for example, is/was a fine genetic engineer, but he seems to have little or no background in population genetics, which is what he uses to argue against evolution. His population genetic arguments are actually pretty shallow.

If you wanna play the qualifications (fallacy of authority) game, creationists could easily and quite correctly point out that some of the greatest evolutionary biologists were not, in fact, biologists.
I don't think anyone brought up qualifications. Most creationists are not scientists because they are not doing science, not because they don't have the right degrees. The great evolutionary biologists were all biologists, because they were all doing biology.
 
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Papias

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Yeah, but many are scientists, and bloody good ones too. Like John Sanford of Cornell University for example, who helped to pioneer genetic engineering. If you wanna play the qualifications (fallacy of authority) game, creationists could easily and quite correctly point out that some of the greatest evolutionary biologists were not, in fact, biologists.
.


I think we established back on this thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7420581/ that it is undisputed that there is a scientific consensus in favor of evolution, as seen by project steve and even by a concession of that fact by Dembski.

As others have pointed out, even those few scientists who dispute evolution are usually out of their field, and a because scientists are actual human beings, you'll always be able to find one to hold any crackpot view chosen.

Papias
 
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marlowe007

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As others have pointed out, even those few scientists who dispute evolution are usually out of their field

Really? So, Ronald Fisher the BA astronomer was completely out of his field when formulating theories about genetics and statistics? I'm not denigrating his work or anything, just pointing out the double standard inherent in your criticism.
 
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Cabal

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Discussing evolution/creation has led me to wonder is creation pseudo science?

Why or why not?

Many people who argue creationism are not even scientists. A lot of creationists become theistic evolutionists because of the evidence. You cant just shout 'Evolution is a lie'.

This should be interesting.
progress.gif

Please, please, please don't get "creationism" and "creation" mixed up. "Creationism" typically refers to a specific origins theology based on one particular interpretation of the Bible. I realise you may be thinking that if you believe in creation, then you are a creationist, which is semantically correct - but typically creationism refers to a literal young earth view.

(Intelligent Design insists it isn't creationism, however there's a lot of reason to think it's essentially a cut-and-paste job, not that association with creationism alone is enough to prove it wrong, it's got lots of flaws in and of itself)

I'm a theistic evolutionist (there exist also "evolutionary creationists", but I'm not sure if they're the same thing). I believe that God did create everything via the naturalistic mechanisms that science attempts to define. In that sense, I am still a creationist. Just because I accept evolution doesn't mean I think that creation is pseudoscience and therefore a bad idea.

However, my approach to mechanism is different to that of most creationists - I simply don't believe that God is going to conclusively show up in the mechanism, I believe that would cheapen the notion of free will and choosing to have faith in God, because as soon as God starts becoming logically and empirically demonstrable it makes less sense to reject him.

Each process used in creating the earth appears empirically like there is no God acting there. You just have to have faith that He is, because He said He created everything. This system renders everything down fully to a choice, rather than the feverish attempts of creationists to find any shred of manipulated science they can to justify a few details in their interpretations of Genesis.

You do raise a good point - it isn't enough to poke holes in the opposing theory, you have to find evidence that supports yours too, and in terms of empirical evidence, creationists are most definitely not in a good position.

So, as to why creationism is pseudoscience:

- As has been stated already, a supernatural, allpowerful entity is not scientifically verifiable or demonstrable, and allowing it into the lab also kills scientific inquiry. When you allow the actions of an omnipotent deity into the mix, pretty much anything can be answered by "God did it." Why should one assume laws of nature that are consistent, interconnected and capable of creating order in matter and energy when this omnipotent figure can arbitrarily alter and suspend them without warning whenever they choose?

- Generally speaking, while there are some notable exceptions, particularly in the ID crowd, some well-known creationists really don't have a clue about science. A great example of this is Kent Hovind, who stated utterly straight-faced that "clouds block X-rays" (among many other howlers). The God-did-it problem also arises here again, because if you correct some creationists on these scientific blunders, often the retort is "well, God would have made it work", "or the laws of nature were different back then" - totally unjustifiable, a total killer of scientific enquiry, essentially equivalent to just making whatever the heck you want up - hey, if God is all-powerful, He could have done it, right?

- One has to wonder why, for a world that is apparently specially created and in which speciation does not occur, the observed evidence sure does LOOK like the opposite is the case. Assuming you don't get lumbered by an accusation of making stuff up or a conspiracy among scientists (short of looking at the data yourself, there's not much one can do to sway you out of that mindset, but to be honest, if you are that paranoid then nothing's probably going to convince you anyway), why would God create a world that appear much older than it is? The typical response is that God had to make aspects of the world old for Adam's benefit.

Apart from the fact that this implies a limitation on God, that he HAD TO make the earth a certain way, i.e. limited by His own designs, it it not only the case that the earth appears old, but that it contains a history. It appears that we have evolved from older creatures over millions of years, on a planet that is billions of years old, in a universe that is even older. Why do all the things we see in the universe follow a logically coherent, empirically observable and definable pattern over time, if it didn't happen? To me, this is deception - pure and simple, and the Bible does state that God does not lie.

I realise I've gone on a bit for this one, and you may disagree with my take on it - but my point is, regardless of the implications of a young earth appearing old, the responses of creationists to the evidence is typically to either cry conspiracy or resort to yet more tenuous Biblical interpretations - neither of which are scientific.

I'm sure there's more I could say, but I think I'll leave things at that for now.
 
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sfs

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Really? So, Ronald Fisher the BA astronomer was completely out of his field when formulating theories about genetics and statistics?
Ronald Fisher's degree was in math, not astronomy, i.e. he took the Mathematics tripos, not physical science ones. His degree was therefore entirely appropriate to his work in statistical genetics. Much of the best work in statistical genetics is still done in statistics departments, in fact.

In any case, why the continuing concern with degrees? Fisher did groundbreaking work in genetics, and was therefore a geneticist. If Sanford, say, published significant research findings in population genetics, he would be a population geneticist, regardless of whether his background was in genetic engineering or in statistical genetics. As I wrote before, few creationists are scientists because few do science.
 
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solja247

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Creationism does appear to be pseudoscience, based on how it compares to the usual ways to recognize pseudoscience.

They include:
  • Use of untestable claims
  • use of vague and undefined terms (like "kind")
  • looking for confirmation instead of refutation ("look at how well all creatures fit in their environments!")
  • Evading Peer review (many examples - especially the sternburg case)
  • Lack of Progress (Creationists don't agree on the basics, like the age of the earth, or the date of the flood, or on and on)
  • moving the goalposts
  • Imagining a conspiracy against them
  • Ignoring contrary evidence
  • Outright hoaxes that are still used

Good point. Although, i do believe wikipedia is biased agiansts creationists.

Yeah, but many are scientists, and bloody good ones too. Like John Sanford of Cornell University for example, who helped to pioneer genetic engineering. If you wanna play the qualifications (fallacy of authority) game, creationists could easily and quite correctly point out that some of the greatest evolutionary biologists were not, in fact, biologists.

There are not many creationist scientists out there anymore. Very few credible ones...

Creationism is not science because it starts with a conclusion and searches for evidence in support of that conclusion. Science begins with evidence and draws conclusions from that evidence.

One could say evolutionists do the same. They make the assumption that evolution happened, therefore try to prove it.

Please, please, please don't get "creationism" and "creation" mixed up. "Creationism" typically refers to a specific origins theology based on one particular interpretation of the Bible. I realise you may be thinking that if you believe in creation, then you are a creationist, which is semantically correct - but typically creationism refers to a literal young earth view.

(Intelligent Design insists it isn't creationism, however there's a lot of reason to think it's essentially a cut-and-paste job, not that association with creationism alone is enough to prove it wrong, it's got lots of flaws in and of itself)

I'm a theistic evolutionist (there exist also "evolutionary creationists", but I'm not sure if they're the same thing). I believe that God did create everything via the naturalistic mechanisms that science attempts to define. In that sense, I am still a creationist. Just because I accept evolution doesn't mean I think that creation is pseudoscience and therefore a bad idea.

However, my approach to mechanism is different to that of most creationists - I simply don't believe that God is going to conclusively show up in the mechanism, I believe that would cheapen the notion of free will and choosing to have faith in God, because as soon as God starts becoming logically and empirically demonstrable it makes less sense to reject him.

Each process used in creating the earth appears empirically like there is no God acting there. You just have to have faith that He is, because He said He created everything. This system renders everything down fully to a choice, rather than the feverish attempts of creationists to find any shred of manipulated science they can to justify a few details in their interpretations of Genesis.

I did mean YEC. Im starting to sway more to evolutionary creationist. Do you have any links to anyone sites who do believe this (I checked and I found nothing).


- As has been stated already, a supernatural, allpowerful entity is not scientifically verifiable or demonstrable, and allowing it into the lab also kills scientific inquiry. When you allow the actions of an omnipotent deity into the mix, pretty much anything can be answered by "God did it." Why should one assume laws of nature that are consistent, interconnected and capable of creating order in matter and energy when this omnipotent figure can arbitrarily alter and suspend them without warning whenever they choose?

I disagree. SOME Creationists say silly things like laws of nature havent been consistent. But not all creationists believe that.

- Generally speaking, while there are some notable exceptions, particularly in the ID crowd, some well-known creationists really don't have a clue about science. A great example of this is Kent Hovind, who stated utterly straight-faced that "clouds block X-rays" (among many other howlers). The God-did-it problem also arises here again, because if you correct some creationists on these scientific blunders, often the retort is "well, God would have made it work", "or the laws of nature were different back then" - totally unjustifiable, a total killer of scientific enquiry, essentially equivalent to just making whatever the heck you want up - hey, if God is all-powerful, He could have done it, right?

Kent hovind is the laughing stock for creationistsand evolutionists. I wouldnt call that a good example.

Apart from the fact that this implies a limitation on God, that he HAD TO make the earth a certain way, i.e. limited by His own designs, it it not only the case that the earth appears old, but that it contains a history. It appears that we have evolved from older creatures over millions of years, on a planet that is billions of years old, in a universe that is even older. Why do all the things we see in the universe follow a logically coherent, empirically observable and definable pattern over time, if it didn't happen? To me, this is deception - pure and simple, and the Bible does state that God does not lie.

This is a good point.
 
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Mallon

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One could say evolutionists do the same. They make the assumption that evolution happened, therefore try to prove it.
But that's not true at all. Evolution is inferred on the basis of biogeographical, developmental, biostratographic, genetic, and anatomic evidence. Evolution isn't assumed; it is inferred on the basis of these independent evidences.
Creationism, on the other hand, is first assumed and then evidence is cherry-picked to support it. Evidence that does not support creationism is rejected. This is stated on AiG's own website:

"By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record." (The AiG Statement of Faith - Answers in Genesis)

That is to say, evidence that contradicts their statement of faith concerning the literal history of Genesis is rejected outright. That's pseudoscience.
 
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Cabal

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Good point. Although, i do believe wikipedia is biased agiansts creationists.

Do check for external links - as far as I can tell there isn't anything there that isn't well-supported.

One could say evolutionists do the same. They make the assumption that evolution happened, therefore try to prove it.

Right, in the sense that initially evolution was a hypothesis and then supporting evidence was found that raised it to the status of a theory. But here's the critical difference, as Mallon pointed out - if evidence was found that went AGAINST evolution, the theory would be dropped. Science is not afraid to do this, and has done it many times before. Conversely, AIG outright state that they will just ignore evidence that they deem as going counter to their viewpoint. This is not scientific.

Look at it this way - science has no vested interest in thinking that the universe is 13.7 Gyr old, the earth is 4.6 Gyr old, and mankind evolved from apelike ancestors.

Your typical young-earth Genesis-literalist creationist however, whose faith has among its foundations that the earth and universe were created barely 6000 years ago and that God handcrafted them from dust and his breath, implying a special creation - can you honestly say the same for them, that they have no vested interest in their viewpoint?

Scientists honestly do not have an attachment to their figures. Creationists do.

I did mean YEC. Im starting to sway more to evolutionary creationist. Do you have any links to anyone sites who do believe this (I checked and I found nothing).

To be honest, everything I find seems to suggest it's the same thing as TE - but one or two places have suggested it's slightly different - that God has a more direct involvment? I just don't want to send you a pile of TE links if it's not what you're after is all.

I disagree. SOME Creationists say silly things like laws of nature havent been consistent. But not all creationists believe that.

Some don't claim it outright, true - the point is is that allowing an omnipotent being into the mix means no-one can be sure that the laws HAVE and WILL remain consistent, if the being can just upend them arbitrarily at will and without warning.

Kent hovind is the laughing stock for creationistsand evolutionists. I wouldnt call that a good example.

Ok, I apologise :) wasn't sure how low to set the example there :D

So who would you consider a better example of a prominent creationist speaker or creation scientist?
 
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Scottish Knight

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If one looks throughout history we find that humanity has difficulty accepting conclusions that are different from the perceived truth or norm. Whether it is the catholic church refusing to accept galileo's discoveries or scientists refusing to see that evolution no longer fits all the facts. Darwin was a great scientist whos observations led him to hypothesise his philosophy which he himself stated was beyond the realm of science. I have watched several documntaries and read books (pro as well as anti) and have come to the conclusion that much of the evidence used to support evolution can be interpreted to fit other theories. Essentially your philosophy is going to dictate how you interpet the evidence. Both evolution and creationism are outside science. It would be better in my mind to drop both theories, examine all the proven evidence, examining all the possible interpretations and allow people to choose which theory they find more convincing
 
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Papias

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Marlowe wrote:

Really? So, Ronald Fisher the BA astronomer was completely out of his field when formulating theories about genetics and statistics? I'm not denigrating his work or anything, just pointing out the double standard inherent in your criticism.
In science, anyone can propose a hypothesis, and it doesn't matter who they are. All ideas are evaluated based on evidence. I'm not familiar with him, but if his work stood up to the evidence, then that's fine.

My point was that the few scientists (and it appears to be less than a few percent, based on Project Steve) who support creationism do so by rehashing well disproven arguments, and hence the fact that they are real scientists in other fields is hardly relevant.

Papias
 
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Scottish Knight

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What facts cannot be accounted for by evolutionary theory, Scottish Knight? And why don't think you think evolution is science?

First I need to distinguish between microevolution that causes variation between the same kind of animals and plants (which is a proven fact) and the theory of evolution which states that all life is descended from a common ancestor (which is unproven). Whether it is correct or not it is unable to be validated by the scientific method. There have been no irrefutable missing links found between species. So-called missing links have either been disproved or can be interpreted as fully human or fully ape. All evidence of ancient humans have shown them to be remarkably similar to modern humans with a level of sophistication. Mutations are normally harmful to the speciesso it is unlikely that millions of beneficial mutations happened. Mutations also happen to existing genes only. I have never heard of new genes suddenly appearing and yet different species have a different number of genes. These are just a couple off the top of my head. Tomorrow I'll get my books out to post more accurate and referenced evidences
 
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Mallon

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There have been no irrefutable missing links found between species. So-called missing links have either been disproved or can be interpreted as fully human or fully ape.
That's not true. Creationists themselves cannot agree which hominid fossils are distinctly human and which are distinctly ape. Their differences in opinion are documented here:
Comparison of all skulls
Note that some authors, like Duane Gish, have flip-flopped over the years about the identification of certain skulls. This demonstrates that human and other ape fossils aren't always easy to tell apart because of how similar they really are. Evolution is a theory that accounts for why humans and apes are similar -- because they share common ancestry to the exclusion of other animals. Creationism offers no such solution. It is pseudoscience.

Mutations are normally harmful to the speciesso it is unlikely that millions of beneficial mutations happened.
Actually, mutations are normally neutral, having no impact on phenotype whatsoever. Also, don't forget that negative mutations are selected against, slowly weeding them out of the population, while rare beneficial mutations are NOT selected against, which is why they are able to accumulate within populations over time.

Mutations also happen to existing genes only. I have never heard of new genes suddenly appearing and yet different species have a different number of genes.
But gene duplications happen all the time, and new mutations introduced into those duplicated genes produce new genes. This has been observed many times. Just watch this video:
YouTube - How Evolution Adds New Information - Link

Tomorrow I'll get my books out to post more accurate and referenced evidences
Before you do, you might want to check your arguments against this exhaustive list first:
An Index to Creationist Claims

I'm sorry, Scottish Knight, but you haven't shown anything that contradicts the theory of evolution (just your incomplete understanding of it). The fact of the matter is that evolution is good science, whereas creationism is pseudoscience.
 
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Cabal

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First I need to distinguish between microevolution that causes variation between the same kind of animals and plants (which is a proven fact) and the theory of evolution which states that all life is descended from a common ancestor (which is unproven).

There is no difference between micro and macro evolution. The only difference involved is timescale. This is like saying you can walk a foot, but you can't walk a mile.

If we didn't descend from a common ancestor, can you then explain why we and chimpanzees both have the exact same viral DNA remnants in the exact same sequences in the exact same places in our genetic code? Can you explain why we and chimpanzees have the same genetic error in the exact same location in our broken Vitamin C synthesis gene?

Whether it is correct or not it is unable to be validated by the scientific method.

The scientific method doesn't mandate validation, only falsifiability. Nothing is 100% provable in science. Atomic theory isn't 100% provable, neither is gravity. However, all these theories are inherently falsifiable. Creationism is not.

There have been no irrefutable missing links found between species.

Wrong.

Tiktaalik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So-called missing links have either been disproved or can be interpreted as fully human or fully ape.

And how exactly does one do that, given the remarkable degree of similarity between them?

All evidence of ancient humans have shown them to be remarkably similar to modern humans with a level of sophistication.

You do realise that more recent speciation events are going to involve superficially similar populations, right?

Mutations are normally harmful to the speciesso it is unlikely that millions of beneficial mutations happened. Mutations also happen to existing genes only.

No, mutations are generally neutral.

As an example, there was a study done recently on the long-term effects of heavy smoking on a smoker's genes. The average mutation rate incurred was one mutation every 15 smokes - and here's the rub, only ONE of those mutations is bad - the one that ends up killing them.

If a mutation is critically bad, the possessor is a lot more likely to be killed off by it before reproduction. The neutral and beneficial ones therefore persist for longer.

And yes, mutations do happen to existing genes, however mutation mechanisms are still capable of creating new information.

I have never heard of new genes suddenly appearing and yet different species have a different number of genes. These are just a couple off the top of my head. Tomorrow I'll get my books out to post more accurate and referenced evidences

cf Lenski's E. Coli experiment where after several generations of separation and genetic divergence from the original population the ability to digest citrate appeared. Also cf the evolution of nylonase.

How is it possible to believe that adaptation can occur and yet claim that new genes don't appear?
 
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