Is Creationism a Fairy Tale?

[lasthero]

That's not the scenario I put forth, and flightless birds were not introduced into the conversation until after I had responded; a tactic that told me the question was baited.

I didn't bait you, I just thought of something after your comment. It happens.

 

[AV1611VET]

I love ur quote!

Thank you!

Too bad people have trouble understanding this.... "THE BIBLE SAYS IT ... THAT SETTLES IT"

It's too simple, and It doesn't come with theories, hypotheses, and suppositions; and they're not used to that.

Couple the fact that they probably invested a big chunk of their money getting their education to the fact that the Bible says ...

Luke 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

... and you have a recipe for scientific methodism and Biblical illiteracy.

 

[nuttypiglet]

I'm curious about that too -- but then again, it wouldn't be the first time they demanded that we do their homework for them.

Well the first thing we have to prove is the Bible. It is a book inspired by God, full of prophecy, some which is yet to happen, but much has already happened. To know thousands of years accurately into the future means supernatural knowledge. Let me give you proof of an event that will occur in the near future, and yet written thousands of years ago.
The book of revelation says that in the middle of the tribulation we will see a sign in the Heavens. In Genesis it says the stars, planets, moons etc are all there for signs and seasons. So let me quote the first part of Revelation 12.
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

If you get some good astronomy software such as stellarium (free), you can set yourself to any vantage point on the Earth. If you put yourself in Jerusalem and look up, then scroll through thousands of years, you will see something in Sept 2017. Virgo is right over Jerusalem, with the Sun on her shoulder, and the Moon at her feet. She has a crown of 12 stars thanks to Leo and some of our planets aligning with it. Now scroll forward slowly and watch the King planet (Jupiter). It travels across to Virgo, and enters her womb area. It actually moves around the womb three time before exiting between her thighs. Now scroll forwards thousands of years and you will not see this again.

Now revelation continues with
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

If you use such software at the date I stated, you will be amazed to see this too. I won't say anymore, the proof is there for a future event to be seen.

So amazing isn't it that this was written thousands of years ago and so very accurately. I thought it might be a coincidence, but as you go through the rest of revelation and look at the signs, they will all be there.
The tribulation is broken up into two halves, the second being called the GREAT tribulation. Each being 3.5 years and the second starting Sept 2017. It's easy to now calculate the start of the tribulation.

It might also be interesting if you learn what a lunar tetrad is. The next one is 2014. There is always a significant event in alignment with a tetrad. We saw one in 1949 which is when Israel established it's own government. There was one in 1967-1968 which aligns with Israel re-claiming Jerusalem. There was one in 1493-1494 and the Jews were forced out of Spain. Next year will be the 8th tetrad since 1AD and another will not occur for 500 years.

 

[AV1611VET]

I didn't bait you, I just thought of something after your comment. It happens.

In any event, I feel I answered your question as you wrote it.

You may not agree based on something thought up after I responded, but I'm not going to chase goalposts.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Why would you think evil is a gene? Evil is choice and Angels/humans have something called free will.

Ah, so when you say the Nephhilim were evil, you're not saying that they were born evil, but that every single last one of them, to the last man, woman, and child, chose to be evil of their own free will?

I'm glad you cleared that up -- otherwise, it would've sounded too much like a fairy tale.

Noah and his family were taken by the Archangel Michael to an area of safety and watched over.

Ah, so our unblemished hero was under the protection of a supernatural guardian... This does have historical precedent...

Cinderella had her fairy godmother,
King Arthur had Merlin,
Hercules, Perseus, Achilles, etc., all had Zeus,
Even Harry Potter had Albus Dumbledore...

Oh, wait, those aren't history, are they? No matter -- at least they're not fairy tal-- oh, wait...

However, the biggest thing which affected the progress of the Nephilim was Enoch's actions. He was returned to the Earth and told by God to deliver a message to the watchers. They would witness the destruction of their offspring, then be locked up until judgement day, then destroyed. They were trembling with fear.

Where are you getting this from? This is good material.

Noah with his wife, three sons and their wives were not hero's they were righteous, still following the word of God and worshipping him.

Of course, they were the only people in all of creation to do so, right? The story doesn't work if they weren't.

If you look at this it fits evolution perfectly. Tiny reptiles suddenly explode into many hundreds of huge dinosaurs through evolution, in a pretty short space of time? I don't think so.

How short a space of time do you think we're discussing here?

Evolution seems to be on the back burner, not doing anything, then suddenly decides it's time for an explosion of new life. It isn't meant to work like that.

In light of recent evidence, I wouldn't exactly call you the "go-to" guy to explain how things are supposed to work.

But please, keep going...

Look at the amount of life forms that exploded into existence over a so called period of 150 million years (small for that number of branches), yet that's what we are supposed to believe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you, who just claimed that every species that ever existed was crafted by genetic experiments from a race of demigods a few thousand years ago, find 150 million years hard to believe?

Laugh harder - YouTube

(I must say I'm getting a lot of mileage out of this clip lately)

 

[TLK Valentine]

That's not the scenario I put forth, and flightless birds were not introduced into the conversation until after I had responded; a tactic that told me the question was baited.

You're the one who mentioned birds. If you didn't mean all birds, then what did you mean?

 

[lasthero]

In any event, I feel I answered your question as you wrote it.

You may not agree based on something thought up after I responded, but I'm not going to chase goalposts.

I didn't move the goalpost.

 

[AV1611VET]

You're the one who mentioned birds. If you didn't mean all birds, then what did you mean?

Let me remind you of what I responded to, and point out something you may have missed:

It's not just the fossils , it's where they're found. As we go higher in the geologic column, we see theropods disappear and birds appear. That makes no sense if birds are turning into dinosaurs.

He's talking about the leading edge of the appearance of birds.

As theropods (whatever those are) disappear, birds of flight come on the scene.

Then after I responded, he jumps to the trailing edge and the realm of flightless birds.

 

[lasthero]

Let me remind you of what I responded to, and point out something you may have missed:

He's talking about the leading edge of the appearance of birds.

As theropods (whatever those are) disappear, birds of flight come on the scene.

Then after I responded, he jumps to the trailing edge and the realm of flightless birds.

I didn't say anything about 'birds of flight'. I just said birds.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Well the first thing we have to prove is the Bible. It is a book inspired by God, full of prophecy, some which is yet to happen, but much has already happened. To know thousands of years accurately into the future means supernatural knowledge. Let me give you proof of an event that will occur in the near future, and yet written thousands of years ago.
The book of revelation says that in the middle of the tribulation we will see a sign in the Heavens. In Genesis it says the stars, planets, moons etc are all there for signs and seasons. So let me quote the first part of Revelation 12.
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

If you get some good astronomy software such as stellarium (free), you can set yourself to any vantage point on the Earth. If you put yourself in Jerusalem and look up, then scroll through thousands of years, you will see something in Sept 2017. Virgo is right over Jerusalem, with the Sun on her shoulder, and the Moon at her feet. She has a crown of 12 stars thanks to Leo and some of our planets aligning with it. Now scroll forward slowly and watch the King planet (Jupiter). It travels across to Virgo, and enters her womb area. It actually moves around the womb three time before exiting between her thighs. Now scroll forwards thousands of years and you will not see this again.

Now revelation continues with
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

If you use such software at the date I stated, you will be amazed to see this too. I won't say anymore, the proof is there for a future event to be seen.

So amazing isn't it that this was written thousands of years ago and so very accurately. I thought it might be a coincidence, but as you go through the rest of revelation and look at the signs, they will all be there.
The tribulation is broken up into two halves, the second being called the GREAT tribulation. Each being 3.5 years and the second starting Sept 2017. It's easy to now calculate the start of the tribulation.

It might also be interesting if you learn what a lunar tetrad is. The next one is 2014. There is always a significant event in alignment with a tetrad. We saw one in 1949 which is when Israel established it's own government. There was one in 1967-1968 which aligns with Israel re-claiming Jerusalem. There was one in 1493-1494 and the Jews were forced out of Spain. Next year will be the 8th tetrad since 1AD and another will not occur for 500 years.

The problem is that astronomy isn't miraculous, it's mathematical. Anyone with a working knowledge of the subject can predict the exact position of any stars, planets, or combination of them with pinpoint accuracy a week, a month, a year, a century, a millennium from now.

You've just proven the point with one word -- stellarium. Surely you don't think its ability to see the sky a thousand years in the future is prophetic? Is the Holy Spirit of God contained in software?

The Egyptians and Greeks, to name only two, didn't have the electronics, but they did have the math. Their knowledge of astronomy is already well-known, and it would be easy for them or anyone with access to their knowledge to predict a specific conjunction of stars, moons, and planets at some point in the distant future.

So as an example of the "prophetic" powers of the Bible, I'm afraid predicting stellar events is something of a bust. Not only can nearly anyone do it, but this particular method has a history of being used for fraudulent messianic claims.

Case in point:

On March 1, 1504, Christopher Columbus used his advance knowledge of a lunar eclipse to convince a native Jamaican population that he and his crew were emissaries of God, and that they should be revered, respected, and well-provisioned (not coincidentally, the Jamaicans were about to stop feeding Columbus and his stranded crew, as they were eating the locals out of house and home). Was Columbus a prophet?

While we're at it, am I a prophet? Because God has told me that our taxes are too darn high, and in order to show His displeasure, he will blot out the Moon on April 15 (tax day), 2014!

Just you wait. Furthermore, you mentioned these events happening in September of 2017 -- I'll do my part have having God extinguish the Sun on August 21 of that year! That oughta get people's attention, amirite?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Let me remind you of what I responded to, and point out something you may have missed:

He's talking about the leading edge of the appearance of birds.

As theropods (whatever those are) disappear, birds of flight come on the scene.

Then after I responded, he jumps to the trailing edge and the realm of flightless birds.

Gotta go with lasthero on this (because the facts are on his side)-- he never specified flight, just birds.

You are the one who forgot that not all birds fly.

 

[lasthero]

Well the first thing we have to prove is the Bible.

But the Book of Enoch isn't part of the Bible, so I fail to see the connection. It's noncanonical. There's absolutely no reason to go down your mystical juju rabbit hole.

 

[TLK Valentine]

But the Book of Enoch isn't part of the Bible, so I fail to see the connection. It's noncanonical. There's absolutely no reason to go down your mystical juju rabbit hole.

Which is another reason to disregard his entire fairy tale.

 

[Split Rock]

National Geographic pride themselves on ensuring everything they put to print is very accurate, and that's why they waited 3 months for the scrutiny by the best in the business. Even a PET scan was taken of the fossil with no clue it was fake. The scientists were simply over excited that at last there was clear evidence of birds being evolved from Dinosaurs. What do you think was happening in those 3 months? nothing? They funded the investigation and then put more funding into the projects for the 3rd month. They wanted to ensure this thing was genuine. You honestly think they would have gone to print if it wasn't thought of as genuine by the experts? what part of their tack record are you basing this on?

It failed peer review, and Nat Geo still published it. That is the reality. They learned a lesson from that, unlike you creationists who never learn.

 

[lasthero]

So amazing isn't it that this was written thousands of years ago and so very accurately. I thought it might be a coincidence, but as you go through the rest of revelation and look at the signs, they will all be there.
The tribulation is broken up into two halves, the second being called the GREAT tribulation. Each being 3.5 years and the second starting Sept 2017. It's easy to now calculate the start of the tribulation.

Also, I could have sworn the Bible explicitly said that no man knows the date or time of Jesus' return. Yet, here you...

 

[nuttypiglet]

But the Book of Enoch isn't part of the Bible, so I fail to see the connection. It's noncanonical. There's absolutely no reason to go down your mystical juju rabbit hole.

Who decided on the 66 books to be included in the Bible and with what criteria?

Nearly all Bible scholars accept Enoch should have been included. Enoch is referenced in book that ARE in the Bible. All Enoch's books do, is to fill in the missing details. For example, Genesis. The existing 66 books simply say a forbidden fruit was eaten and that Adam was tricked by Eve, Eve was tricked by the Serpent. No other details filled in really. However, the book of Adam and Eve explains every detail and says nothing to contradict the 66 books.

 

[nuttypiglet]

Also, I could have sworn the Bible explicitly said that no man knows the date or time of Jesus' return. Yet, here you...

Hmm. So let me ask you. Is this in reference to Jesus coming for his bride? or is it in reference to him coming to establish his millennium reign?

 

[lasthero]

Nearly all Bible scholars accept Enoch should have been included.

Source, please. I did a cursory search and came across quite a few who don't consider it canonical at all.

The Book of Enoch was considered as Scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas (16:4)[23] and by many of the early Church Fathers, such as Athenagoras,[24] Clement of Alexandria,[25] Irenaeus[26] and Tertullian,[27] who wrote c. 200 that the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ.[28] However, later Fathers denied the canonicity of the book, and some even considered the letter of Jude uncanonical because it refers to an "apocryphal" work.[29]
By the 4th century, the Book of Enoch was mostly excluded from Christian canons, and it is now regarded as scripture by only the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Eritrean Orthodox Church.

Book of Enoch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Enoch is referenced in book that ARE in the Bible

Yes, so?

All Enoch's books do, is to fill in the missing details.

Eh, not exactly. They mess up a few things.

1:1 Implies restoration during tribulation - not congruent with scriptures.
1:8 In conflict with the doctrine that peace was made at the cross. Also, in the last days tribulation will increase for the righteous - this "verse" seems to dispute that.
2:2-3 Appears to contradict 2 Pet 3:3-7
5:4 Is an admonition to some unknown party - this is very irregular relative to the scriptures (i.e. authentic ancient writings by God-fearing Jews)
6:3 Semjaza seems to be listed as the leader of the angels, which is not scriptural
6:3,8 None of these angels are mentioned in the Bible
8:1 Azazel isn't even listed in 6:8 as one of the angels that fornicated with women
8:3 Araqiel and Shamsiel aren't listed in 6:8 either
10:2 Enoch allegedly wrote about Noah, even though the Bible teaches that Enoch was taken up to heaven years before Noah was born.
10:4-6,12 Implies angels can be bound & hid in holes under rocks. This is contrary to scripture.
10:8 Ascribes all the sin of the fallen angels to one named Azazel - not scriptural.
10:15-11:2 Seems to imply that permanent restoration took place after the flood - clearly not true. It seems the true author of this book confused scriptures pertaining to the future restoration.
13:5-6,14:4-5,7 Implies fallen angels can't talk to God - this contradicts Job. Also implies that angels were repentant, but weren't received back by God - very strange doctrine.
14 Gives a very strange description of Heaven that conflicts with many scriptures
15:8-10 Very strange doctrine about "evil spirits" proceeding from unredeemable giants
17-18,21,23 Gives a very strange description of the earth & universe which is clearly not true. Also alludes to the ancient model of astronomy that held that there were 7 stars (the closest planets) which burned like the sun (they don't.)
19:3 Discredits all other prophecy about the consumation of the ages.
20 Lists strange angels not in scripture, and incorrectly assigns the roles of Michael (the warrior) and Gabriel (the messenger)
21:7-10 Seems to contradict Biblical descriptions of the present & final judgement places for the fallen angels
22 Contradicts the Biblical descriptions of past, present & future dwelling places for the righteous who die
32:2-6 Seems to imply the Garden of Eden was still in existance after the Flood
33:1-2 Says Heaven rests on a foundation that is at the Eastern edge of the earth
33:3 He claims he counted the stars & individually mapped them, which is impossible scripturally (& scientifically)
34 Says the winds come out of a "portal" at the Northern edge of the earth
36:3 Says the stars come out of portals at the Eastern edge of the earth & move West
38:5-6 Contradicts Daniel & other prophecies about the Mellinial Reign
39:1-2 Very strange implications here about the "seed" of angels dwelling with men at the end... this contradicts the scriptures
40:7 Talks about the "Satans" - plural, different than the Bible, who gives that name to only one fallen angel. Also, implies Satan can't stand in God's presence, contrary to Job.
40:9 Once again mixes up the roles of the 2 Archangels & adds more names in. Michael's role in scripture is related to conquoring nations & fighting spiritual wars, while Gabriel's relates to bringing messages & visions to people.
41:1-2 Says the Kingdom of God is divided - it's not & can't be scripturally. Also describes sinners being repelled from a mansion, which is also not scriptural, unless you look at a parable Jesus told, which was not intended to be literal.
41:4-5 Says the sun, moon, winds, etc. are stored in chambers & released at appointed times.
41:6-7 Implies the sun & moon move opposite of each other
43:1-3,44 Very weird model of the nature of stars & lightning
47:4 Says God requires the blood of the saints... very strange
51:1 Says Sheol & Hell will give back to the earth, which isn't scriptural - also Hell is a NT term, not OT
51:2 Disputes the Biblical doctrine that we are chosen. (We don't have to wait until Christ's return to be chosen.) This isn't scriptural.
General: Seems to imply Enoch came back down to earth after being taken up to Heaven, which is not scriptural.

canon - Why is the Book of Enoch not regarded as canonical? - Christianity Stack Exchange

And that's just from the first 59 chapters.

 

[nuttypiglet]

The problem is that astronomy isn't miraculous, it's mathematical. Anyone with a working knowledge of the subject can predict the exact position of any stars, planets, or combination of them with pinpoint accuracy a week, a month, a year, a century, a millennium from now.

You've just proven the point with one word -- stellarium. Surely you don't think its ability to see the sky a thousand years in the future is prophetic? Is the Holy Spirit of God contained in software?

The Egyptians and Greeks, to name only two, didn't have the electronics, but they did have the math. Their knowledge of astronomy is already well-known, and it would be easy for them or anyone with access to their knowledge to predict a specific conjunction of stars, moons, and planets at some point in the distant future.

So as an example of the "prophetic" powers of the Bible, I'm afraid predicting stellar events is something of a bust. Not only can nearly anyone do it, but this particular method has a history of being used for fraudulent messianic claims.

Case in point:

On March 1, 1504, Christopher Columbus used his advance knowledge of a lunar eclipse to convince a native Jamaican population that he and his crew were emissaries of God, and that they should be revered, respected, and well-provisioned (not coincidentally, the Jamaicans were about to stop feeding Columbus and his stranded crew, as they were eating the locals out of house and home). Was Columbus a prophet?

While we're at it, am I a prophet? Because God has told me that our taxes are too darn high, and in order to show His displeasure, he will blot out the Moon on April 15 (tax day), 2014!

Just you wait. Furthermore, you mentioned these events happening in September of 2017 -- I'll do my part have having God extinguish the Sun on August 21 of that year! That oughta get people's attention, amirite?

lunar eclipses and using software are not difficult. So you believe that John, while exiled on Patmos, wrote the book of revelation using Stellarium and a laptop? John was not an expert of the Stars, and was a prisoner. I very much doubt that he knew Jupiter would have a retrograde appearance in Virgo three times in a row, in the year 2017. I very much doubt he knew certain planets would align with Leo to give a 12 star crown. I very much doubt he knew the Moon would be at Virgo's feet at that moment with the Sun on her shoulder. On top of that we have the rest of the sign, after Jupiter is born out of Virgo.
Perhaps you have a reference I have missed which confirms John had great knowledge of astronomy/astrology?

 

[nuttypiglet]

Source, please. I did a cursory search and came across quite a few who don't consider it canonical at all.



Book of Enoch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Yes, so?



Eh, not exactly. They mess up a few things.



canon - Why is the Book of Enoch not regarded as canonical? - Christianity Stack Exchange

And that's just from the first 59 chapters.

Quite a list of things you've copied and pasted from somewhere, BUT I had to laugh at them because they are simply not correct. Have you actually checked any of them for yourself and seen the errors stated are wrong?
I know that in science, copying and pasting and taking the word of others is so common, but in religion you are your own church and must seek the truth. If you want we can go through that list. If you put your references and what you believe the biblical passages in contradiction mean, then we can discuss them. This of course means you actually doing some work, and not simply copying the work of others which has been proved wrong on several occasions.