is creation outside of science's scope?

[Assyrian]

verse 24 of genesis one does not haunt me as it does not refer to natural processes.. that is eisogesis at its best when people do say that.

No eisegesis is when you read things into scripture that aren't there. Like you were doing with Heb 11 claiming it said God did not use processes in his creation. We have been discussing what Gen1:24 actually says, it describes God commanding the earth to produce living creatures.

we know it is eisogesis because no other passage of scripture which refers to creation makes mention of nor corroborrates such thinking.

No that would not show eisegesis either, even if it were true.

I asked you about this before, did God use natural processes to created the blacksmith? The blacksmiths mammy and daddy?

Isaiah 54:16 See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc.

Or what about:

Psalm 102:18 Let this be written for a future generation, that a people not yet created may praise the LORD:

Isaiah 43:1 But now, this is what the LORD says--he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine.

Were natural processes involved after God opened Sarah's womb? From her giggles she certainly thought so. What about God making Jacob, and the nation that descended from them? What about the people not yet created? Do you think God was going to involve biology in making these people the traditional way?

we also know from the last verse of genesis 1 and from exodus that creation was completed in 6 days, which shuts the door on any other time frame theorized.

it also lets the world know that evolution is non-existent and a creation of evil because there is no scriptural foundation for such thinking and no reference to a time frame slower or longer than what God did in genesis.

saying one phrase changes the whole chapter and all of scripture is not dealing with reality and shows that such a person is looking for an excuse of justification to believe other things than what God says He did.

remember it is not me that you have to give an account but God. you are not insulting me or calling me a liar but God. i just stand with Him.

So when did God create the blacksmith?

God commanded the earth to produce living creatures, and he commanded the living creatures to be fruitful and multiply. Have animals stop making baby animals? If this command is still in effect, why do you think God's command for the earth to produce different kinds of animals was revoked?

Even if we were to accept your literal six day interpretation, your argument still does not work.

 

[Assyrian]

i gave an answer now it is up to you to demonstrate credibly why you are right. please show how one phrase changes the chapter and all biblical references to what you want them to read.

Just dealing with your posts in order, your accusations and evasion first, then the post that deals with the discussion. It was good to see you try to get to grips with the scriptural argument, though you did not actually deal with verse 24.

i will ignore the insults,
the childish behavior as it only makes you look bad.

The irony, and on so many levels.
Anyway I have dealt with your actual arguments in my last post. If we could stick to that it would be great.

 

[theFijian]

Archie, in Gen 1:24 why does God command the earth to bring forth living creatures? Why doesn't he do it himself? Please exegete this verse for us.

 

[archaeologist]

read verse 25.

assyrian is ignored.

 

[Assyrian]

Again. You seem to keep doing that. I make a nice long post taking your arguments apart and you refuse to answer.

It shows how well your arguments stand up.

 

[theFijian]

read verse 25.

I've read it before thanks, I already know God was the one who created. Now you read v24 and tell me why God commanded the earth to 'bring forth living creatures'.

 

[archaeologist]

God spoke for all His creation, why would verse 24 be any different?

there was no natural process used. where does it say that God created evolution and He used evolution to form all things?

you are reading into a verse and ignoring everything else.

 

[TomBormat]

The Bible can't use the word 'evolution' because the theory didn't exist when it was written. Also, since Genesis was written by a simple people who were involved almost solely in agriculture and husbandry, how can you expect them to understand such a concept? Of course the writer, even if he/she were inspired by God, would have no concept of such ideas, let alone their audience. Why can't you allow for humans and human thinking to grow? Why must you root our intellectual ability firmly in the Bronze Age, and never let it enter the 21st century?

 

[archaeologist]

The Bible can't use the word 'evolution' because the theory didn't exist when it was written

which is key to dismantling belief in the theory of evolution.

many here have said that they have 150 years of scientific study to back them up and prove their theory true, most say they are christian and say the believe God.

BUT if the truth has only come out in the last 150 years where was God all this time? why would He allow His writers, who were faithful and obeyed Him to write that which is not true, then leave it that way for thousands of years?

Why would God use someone who did not believe in Him, and was probably very angry that God would let His daughter die, nor followed His commands, etc. to provide the modern world with 'the truth'.

what about all those civilizations before darwin? they all died without this knowledge, is God that cruel to let such a hoax persist for millenia and have billions die woithout hope of salvation?

we know that evolution was not preached during the ancient civilizations, so what of them.

why would God set apart the Israelites and send His son, who also recognized the genesis account as true,for salvation when He knew the people were reading the old testament and getting a 'false' story?

why didn't Jesus correct Moses when He was here on earth, setting the record straight instead of having peter and paul reiterate the old testament events as literally true?

instead Jesus quoted Moses' writings as literally true?

evolution does not exist, and those who subscribe to it are being deceived as God never used that process or natural selection to do His work.

The Biblical writers wrote what God wanted them to write, with the Holy Spirit very much involved as to what was written and there is no lie contained therein.

there is no evolutionary process, no natural selection that did God's work for Him.

Jesus once said about heaven and going to prepare a place for those who believe in Him, "i tell you the truth... if it were not so, i would tell you..."

the same honesty applies for all the Bible, if it were any different, God would have written His word so we would know because God does not lie.

Also, since Genesis was written by a simple people who were involved almost solely in agriculture and husbandry, how can you expect them to understand such a concept

genesis was written by Moses, a well educated man who had access to all sorts of records and stories and visitors from other nations. He was in a position to know more than the rest of the nation of israel.

Of course the writer, even if he/she were inspired by God, would have no concept of such ideas, let alone their audience

God gave them brains, teachers, and others who would explain such things. do not assume about the ancient world. they knew more than the moderns give them credit.

Why must you root our intellectual ability firmly in the Bronze Age, and never let it enter the 21st century?

because the truth doesn't change even though 'modernization' does. evil didn't stop working in the bronze age and we must stay with the truth despite what secular man says or pursues.

 

[Rudolph Hucker]

... ...
what about all those civilizations before darwin? they all died without this knowledge, is God that cruel to let such a hoax persist for millenia and have billions die woithout hope of salvation?
...

Tough to anaswer Arch: how many died in the flood do you think?

 

[TomBormat]

God is cruel, look at the world. Would an all-loving omnipotent being let such suffering persist?

And Moses didn't write Genesis.

 

[TomBormat]

You might ask, Arch, who did write Genesis?

I'll tell you, Tom Bormat.

That's right, I wrote Genesis. But don't tell anybody!

And for proof, I offer this: If a biographer wrote the story of my life and left out that I wrote Genesis, does that mean that I didn't write it? Of course not. And so on.

 

[archaeologist]

God is cruel, look at the world. Would an all-loving omnipotent being let such suffering persist?

He provides ways out, salvation through His Son; answers to prayer and so on. but keep in mind that He allowed man the right to choose freely-- to follow Him or to follow evil.

the evil doers time will come and they will be punished justly. make the right decision before it is too late.

 

[theFijian]

The Bible can't use the word 'evolution' because the theory didn't exist when it was written]

which is key to dismantling belief in the theory of evolution.

I propose we start a list of things which aren't in the Bible which is to key to proving that they don't exist:

Cinemas
The automobile
pedometers
Coco pops
Dalmatians
Ayers rock
...

 

[Assyrian]

which is key to dismantling belief in the theory of evolution.

many here have said that they have 150 years of scientific study to back them up and prove their theory true, most say they are christian and say the believe God.

BUT if the truth has only come out in the last 150 years where was God all this time? why would He allow His writers, who were faithful and obeyed Him to write that which is not true, then leave it that way for thousands of years?

Why would God use someone who did not believe in Him, and was probably very angry that God would let His daughter die, nor followed His commands, etc. to provide the modern world with 'the truth'.

what about all those civilizations before darwin? they all died without this knowledge, is God that cruel to let such a hoax persist for millenia and have billions die woithout hope of salvation?

we know that evolution was not preached during the ancient civilizations, so what of them.

why would God set apart the Israelites and send His son, who also recognized the genesis account as true,for salvation when He knew the people were reading the old testament and getting a 'false' story?

why didn't Jesus correct Moses when He was here on earth, setting the record straight instead of having peter and paul reiterate the old testament events as literally true?

instead Jesus quoted Moses' writings as literally true?

evolution does not exist, and those who subscribe to it are being deceived as God never used that process or natural selection to do His work.

The Biblical writers wrote what God wanted them to write, with the Holy Spirit very much involved as to what was written and there is no lie contained therein.

there is no evolutionary process, no natural selection that did God's work for Him.

Jesus once said about heaven and going to prepare a place for those who believe in Him, "i tell you the truth... if it were not so, i would tell you..."

the same honesty applies for all the Bible, if it were any different, God would have written His word so we would know because God does not lie.

Does the bible contain a lie because it does not mention that the earth is a sphere? Was God perpetuating a cruel hoax because the bible doesn't say the earth is rotating and orbits the sun? There is no mention of gravitation that holds the earth in orbit around the sun. Did billions die without hope of salvation because they believed the sun moved around the earth? Could people only be saved once Copernicus and Newton (who denied the Trinity) revealed the science behind motion of the solar system. Do your really think salvation depends on scientific knowledge? What about the people before Watson and Crick who did not know DNA was a double helix? Are they not saved either?

We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not by a correct interpretation of Genesis or the correct interpretation of any of the processes mentioned in scripture like the movement of the sun and moon. People did not lose their salvation if they thought the ends of the earth was literal, nor was God deceiving them and perpetuating a hoax.

 

[archaeologist]

the same appeals tothe same tired old arguments, your going to the absurd just shows you refuse to be rational, constructive or even cordial.

i have proven my contention with this thread and after repeated ostings no one will or canrefute what i have provenabout science being outside of the scope of science.

that point has been proved science loses.

We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ

you don't get it. when a person chooses jesus as their Savior, they have entered into the kingdom of God and that means they follow God not the world.

just because one is saved by God's grace does it give permission to disobey Him and return to the ways of the world and create alternatives to His words.

God said it Himself: "why do ye call me Lord Lord but do not do the things i say"

if you say you have chosen to follow God then you have no freedom to dismiss gen. 1 or revelations, no freedom to add evolution when evolution is solely a human/deception construct.

you follow and preach what God says nothing else. which is why i started that thread, 'when did God say...' because God has never said to follow science's 'evidence' or interpretations.

He said 'follow me' or 'the just shall live by faith' turning and following secular science is not doing either.

 

[theFijian]

i have proven my contention with this thread and after repeated ostings no one will or canrefute what i have provenabout science being outside of the scope of science.

Rather, you've spent over 40 pages proving you don't understand science.

 

[archaeologist]

ha ha ha--

 

[theFijian]

ha ha ha--

Observe the sum total of archie's argument.

 

[Psudopod]

if you say you have chosen to follow God then you have no freedom to dismiss gen. 1 or revelations, no freedom to add evolution when evolution is solely a human/deception construct.

Why limit this to evolution? Why not special relativity, the idea gas equation, antibiotics or chemotherapy?