is creating with age deceptive?

[archaeologist]

Y.E.C.'ers claim that God created with age, in your mind would that be deceptive or practical? why?

for the record i feel that it would be practical but let's hear what others have to say.

 

[Mallon]

God didn't just create the world with age. He created it with history. The world bears traces of meteor strikes, ancient mountain belts, multiple ice ages, etc. So you have not ask yourself not only why God would create a world with age, but why He would create a world with history, too. Because if you believe God created the world with these artifacts embedded in its crust, you had might as well believe he created the Lost City of Atlantis and in situ dinosaur bones, too!

 

[billwald]

Yes, it would be deceptive. Do we live in a real, physical universe or a holodeck that only exists in God's mind?

 

[philadiddle]

I was gonna say what Mallon said. For a further example, if Adam was made as the Bible said, he would have looked 15-20 years old, when he was only 5 minutes old. However, God wouldn't have made him with scars, healed bones from a fracture, or memories of being on the farm with grandpa. That's really the difference between looking old and having a history. The earth does have a history, a very old history.

So to answer your question, the appearance of age alone isn't deceitful, but with an appearance of history, it is lying.

 

[jckstraw72]

its not at all deceptive, since He tells us how He did it in Genesis. He did not create the world with history -- that conclusion comes from a certain interpretation of evidence that is based upon the presupposition of uniformitarianism.

 

[Mick116]

God could have created the universe two minutes ago, us with all our memories... but can you blame us for working under the assumption that the universe is as old as it actually appears?

 

[gluadys]

its not at all deceptive, since He tells us how He did it in Genesis. He did not create the world with history -- that conclusion comes from a certain interpretation of evidence that is based upon the presupposition of uniformitarianism.

Do you know what "uniformitarianism" means?

Did you know that uniformitarianism is described in the bible as typical of God's world, even as promised by God?

Psalm 104 is a good example.

 

[Citanul]

for the record i feel that it would be practical

Why would it be practical to create a world that looks old? If the world really wasn't that old, then I would think it would be more practical not to have it look old. That way we wouldn't waste our time determining an age that doesn't exist.

And can anyone give any Biblical backing for the idea that the world was created to look old? As far as I can see there's as much evidence to support that idea as there is that the world was created last Thursday.

 

[gluadys]

Why would it be practical to create a world that looks old? If the world really wasn't that old, then I would think it would be more practical not to have it look old. That way we wouldn't waste our time determining an age that doesn't exist.

And can anyone give any Biblical backing for the idea that the world was created to look old? As far as I can see there's as much evidence to support that idea as there is that the world was created last Thursday.

Actually, almost all relevant biblical passages emphasize that the earth is very old indeed. And that natural processes continue steadily through seasonal cycles year after year the same.

I just referenced Psalm 104 on another thread. The opening chapter of Ecclesiates also comes to mind.

 

[archaeologist]

The earth does have a history, a very old history

but when God created it He saw that it was all good. thus there is no history as you describe it. there could be no scars, no meteor hits at the time of creation.

Why would it be practical to create a world that looks old

i never said 'looked old' i said created with age and creating adam as a man is practical, the same with the sun, stars and so on.

God had a purpose and going through a process that took millions and billions of years would not fit that plan.

[almost all relevant biblical passages emphasize that the earth is very old indeed/QUOTE]

sorry neither of those passages say the earth is old. please cite some other ones that can be more specific.

but can you blame us for working under the assumption that the universe is as old as it actually appears?

but you know what they say about assumptions.

but with an appearance of history, it is lying

but God doesn't lie and He never claimed to create with a history. what He said was what he created was good so this 'history' had to come after the fall of man.

Do we live in a real, physical universe or a holodeck that only exists in God's mind?

but creating with age isn't deceptive. here is the meaning of that word and two others from the oxford dictionary:

1. deceptive: likely to make you believe something that is not true.

2. deception: the act of deliberately making someone believe something is not true

3. deceive: to make somebody believe something that is not true.

now i ask you , has God done anything of the sort? thik about it and compare it with all the scriptures that reference his creative act.

www.biblegateway.com this website should be of some help to you in looking up the references.

 

[Citanul]

i never said 'looked old' i said created with age

I don't see the difference. If something is created with age then it has to look old. And if something looks old, then it's created with at least the appearance of age, if not age itself.

but God doesn't lie and He never claimed to create with a history.

He never claimed to create with age either. If the six-day account is true, then on the seventh day Adam was one day old.

1. deceptive: likely to make you believe something that is not true.

If something is created with age, then it's likely to make you think that it came into being at some point earlier than it actually did.

If Adam was created as a 30-year old, then anyone looking at him would be likely to believe that he was actually born 30 years earlier, which wouldn't be true in this case. That fits your definition of deceptive.


And on a side note - if you're quoting multiple posts is it possible for you to include the original posters' names? It makes it a lot easier to follow the discussion.

 

[Mallon]

Why would an omnipotent God have to create a world that looked old anyway? Surely an omnipotent God could have sustained life on a young looking planet.

If YECs are willing to admit that God created the world with age, I can hardly understand why they would fault their brothers and sisters for believing it is so. Especially when the Bible itself tells us that God's handiwork is trustworthy (Psalm 19:1-2; Romans 1:20).

 

[ForumMonk]

Well, its interesting to watch this discussion split into the classic philosophic arguments. So far I have seen, Last Thursdayism and the Five Minute Hypothesis, only shortened now to two minutes. Soon the "other" side will be citing the example of how Jesus created the wine with the appearance of age at the wedding in Cana, because new wine is not as fine as old wine.

Really the argument divides along each individuals OEC/YEC point of view. Most OEC will say it is deceptive and most YEC will say it is not.

But let us imagine just for a moment. If you were God and you wanted to create a universe in which you intended to place a man a few days later knowing what his future would be. Would you create it with age? For example, would the sun be mature, would the earth have oil and coal, would trees be fully grown?

Regards,
FM

 

[archaeologist]

If Adam was created as a 30-year old, then anyone looking at him would be likely to believe that he was actually born 30 years earlier, which wouldn't be true in this case. That fits your definition of deceptive.

not really. no one is hiding the fact that he was created the day before and stating he is an older person with a history. God didn't hide the age of adam nor did adam so no deception took place.

gen 5:3 states: when adam had lived 130 years...
verse 5 states: altogether adam lived 930 years...
at no time does scripture state that adam was 930 years old, no deception is being made.

the same with creation, all gen. says is 'in the beginning... no mention of the age of the earth is made thus no attempt to deceive. it is onlythose who do not believe who seek to label the age at 14 billionyears or whatever, when they have no clue they are right and no means to prove it.

the deception comes in from the secular world, not God.

[QUOTEWhy would an omnipotent God have to create a world that looked old anyway? Surely an omnipotent God could have sustained life on a young looking planet.
][/QUOTE]

God did not create a world that looked old nor did He give it history. He created with age for His purpose and to demonstrate to all His power so that those who believe in Him will not be afraid but have confidence when they face temptation,struggles and persecution.

 

[archaeologist]

as for my quoting --i am not computer literate but i doid see the difference and would not know how to add the name. i thought it was automatic.

 

[Citanul]

as for my quoting --i am not computer literate but i doid see the difference and would not know how to add the name. i thought it was automatic.

If you click on the Post Quote button, you'll see the text of the message you're quoting, surrounded by quote tags. The opening one will be be

where name is the name of the user you're quoting, and number is the post number (which provides a link to the post but isn't as important).

If you make this of this tag rather than just

, then the name will appear with along with the quoted text. Hope this helps.

 

[Citanul]

God did not create a world that looked old nor did He give it history. He created with age

I still don't see the difference between creating with age and creating some that has history/looks old. Can you try and explain exactly what you mean by "creating with age"? I'm having trouble understanding the point you're trying to make.

 

[seekingmyLord]

Why would it be practical to create a world that looks old? If the world really wasn't that old, then I would think it would be more practical not to have it look old. That way we wouldn't waste our time determining an age that doesn't exist.

And can anyone give any Biblical backing for the idea that the world was created to look old? As far as I can see there's as much evidence to support that idea as there is that the world was created last Thursday.

Along the lines of your question, why do we make new photographs looked aged? I don't think it is meant to deceive. I think drawing or painting the portrait of an face with age is much more interesting for me as an artist and for those who view it than a drawing of a young person. Perhaps God felt the same.

I mean if everything in the universe was new at the same instant, wouldn't you think it you would like to add some interesting variations for you and the others of your creation to enjoy? What we perceive as age may simply be "character."

 

[notto]

I still don't see the difference between creating with age and creating some that has history/looks old. Can you try and explain exactly what you mean by "creating with age"? I'm having trouble understanding the point you're trying to make.

Did the trees in the garden have scars on them from lighting strikes and insect damage?

Were the rocks in the streams weathered and rounded?

Was there peat and rotting leaves in the soil?

All of these imply history, not age. They imply that a specific set of events (lightening, insects, weathering, and falling leaves) happened. They imply a specific physical history, not a chronological age.

If we are now seeing light from a supernova that happened 4 million light year away, then if the universe isn't that old, that event (or history) never happened. The supernova never existed and the history that we are seeing is a false one.

 

[crawfish]

There is a star 7500 light years away that scientists think is about to go supernova. Assuming that happens, think about it - if YEC is correct,
then God, 6000 years ago, created light heading to us indicating a supernova 6000-light years away. So we'd see it today.

I'll admit - if God doesn't care what we believe about how creation happened, then no, he's not really being deceptive. If, however, he holds it up as a matter of faith, and He made it appear to happen in a different way than it did happen, then YES! It is! What if God told us the sun was blue but was only making us think it was yellow, then said only those who believed it was blue could enter the kingdom of Heaven? Would that be deceptive?

Personally, I think the "practical" argument is silly. Some YEC's say it makes no sense for an all-powerful God to take hundreds of billions of years instead of six days to create the universe. Relatively speaking, though, for an eternal being hundreds of billions of years is essentially EQUAL to six days, in that both are reduced to absolute insignificance.