Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

[Saint Steven]

Nobody today has the background necessary for being an apostle according to the Apostles.

How can you qualify that statement?
What have the Apostles (capital A) ever said about the apostles (small a)?

 

[Dave L]

No evidence?
I have already testified to you that I speak in tongues, have seen the sick healed with the laying on of my hands and had visons that led to divine encounters.
And I'm not the only one. Did you think I was lying to you?

The prayer of faith heals the sick. Visions are highly questionable since the 60s.

 

[Dave L]

How can you qualify that statement?
What have the Apostles (capital A) ever said about the apostles (small a)?

What were the requirements for being an apostle?

 

[Saint Steven]

Nothing verifies that you have the gifts you say you have.

If you refuse to accept an eye-witness account, what do you do with this?
Does anything verify it?

1 John 1:3
We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Dave L]

If you refuse to accept an eye-witness account, what do you do with this?
Does anything verify it?

1 John 1:3
We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

We need some documented verified miracles. Until then it's all wishful thinking.

 

[Saint Steven]

The prayer of faith heals the sick. ...

What kind of church does this? Evangelical or Pentecostal?

James 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord.

 

[Dave L]

What kind of church does this? Evangelical or Pentecostal?

James 5:14
Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord.

I know of many from diverse persuasions who believe the prayer of faith heals the sick.

 

[Saint Steven]

Visions are highly questionable since the 60s.

Acts 2:17
“‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

 

[Dave L]

Acts 2:17
“‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

This was fulfilled at Pentecost.

 

[Saint Steven]

We need some documented verified miracles. Until then it's all wishful thinking.

Are you saved?
If so, can you prove it?
Or just wishful thinking?

There probably are. In fact, Bethel, Redding did exactly that.
Yet most just denied it. Preferring to attack the leadership instead.
I'll see if I can find the link. But you will no doubt dismiss it.

 

[JAL]

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16–17) (KJV 1900)

If scripture thoroughly furnishes believers, why chase after voices in your head thinking it is God, or in anybody else's head?

Why cite a verse that contradicts your position? Paul was referring to the OT 'scripture'. If that's sufficient, then the NT is superfluous, right?

Secondly you don't seem to understand the OT concept of a 'man of God'. That refers to a PROPHET. Obviously because only a prophet has sufficient insight to RELIABLY handle the written Word.

Thirdly the passage is merely anticipatory. No one will be FULLY equipped (perfect) in this life. But certainly the gift of prophecy vis a vis the written Word is a step in the right direction.

Fourthly you ignored the argument in my post, namely that repudiation of the Voice ties God's hands from running His church, by divesting Him of a means to give you a direct order RIGHT NOW.

Fifthly if Scripture is sufficient, why listen to ANY voices for clarification? You never go chasing after the voices of men? You never refer or listen to lexicons, commentaries, sermons, or concordances published by men? You do realize, don't you, that you wouldn't even HAVE an English translation, if it were not for the voices of men?

Sixthly - ah nevermind. Appeals to rationality are not effective on some people.

 

[Saint Steven]

This was fulfilled at Pentecost.

But you said, "Visions are highly questionable since the 60s."
Was Pentecost in the 60s?

 

[Albion]

Albion, and it's not just that you would have at least two authorities (if you accept Sola Scriptura), it's also that the first authority (the basis on which you accepted Jesus and the Bible) is a HIGHER AUTHORITY than Scripture because it DICTATED whether or not you accept Scripture as inspired.

And you can list more possibilities 3, 4, 5 and so on. In all cases, it means that Scripture is not the only FINAL authority in your life. 'Sola' Scriptura isn't Sola at all. THAT'S the charge of contradiction.

It all depends on how the word authority is being used. God is the ultimate authority, we agree. But authority for what? Determining our eternal fate? Deciding when the universe will come to its end? What? He is the final word on everything, right?

So when we are speaking of the final authority on essential dogma, that which we must believe as part of our faith...what is the authority? Or, related to that, what may any church rightly demand of its members in the way of doctrine?

The authority for THAT would be God. Also. Just as with everything else.

But how do we know what he is telling us in that regard?

It is in divine revelation, and just about every Christian church says that the Bible is the word of God! What, in fact, could be a more reliable authority for determining essential doctrine than God's own revelation to us? And the term for using that revelation in preference to anything else we might think of is Sola Scriptura/the Bible Alone.

It cannot be either Reason OR Scripture, nor can it be Reason AND Scripture. That is because Reason is obviously not as high a faculty, not as authoritative as Gods own word. However, it would be right to say that Reason is to be used by us in the process of understanding Scripture.

 

[Dave L]

Are you saved?
If so, can you prove it?
Or just wishful thinking?

There probably are. In fact, Bethel, Redding did exactly that.
Yet most just denied it. Preferring to attack the leadership instead.
I'll see if I can find the link. But you will no doubt dismiss it.

Salvation shows up in lifestyle.

 

[Dave L]

But you said, "Visions are highly questionable since the 60s."
Was Pentecost in the 60s?

I was only showing how crazy those claiming visions can be.

 

[Dave L]

Why cite a verse that contradicts your position? Paul was referring to the OT 'scripture'. If that's sufficient, then the NT is superfluous, right?

Secondly you don't seem to understand the OT concept of a 'man of God'. That refers to a PROPHET. Obviously because only a prophet has sufficient insight to RELIABLY handle the written Word.

Thirdly the passage is merely anticipatory. No one will be FULLY equipped (perfect) in this life. But certainly the gift of prophecy vis a vis the written Word is a step in the right direction.

Fourthly you ignored the argument in my post, namely that repudiation of the Voice ties God's hands from running His church, by divesting Him of a means to give you a direct order RIGHT NOW.

Fifthly if Scripture is sufficient, why listen to ANY voices for clarification? You never go chasing after the voices of men? You never refer or listen to lexicons, commentaries, sermons, or concordances published by men?

Sixthly - ah nevermind. Appeals to rationality are not effective on some people.

If scripture thoroughly furnishes believers, why would "voices in the head" be necessary?

 

[Saint Steven]

We need some documented verified miracles. Until then it's all wishful thinking.

I'm not aware of anything from what you would consider "a reliable source".
But I found the link to healing testimonies from Bethel, Redding. (2012-2019)
Testimonies | Bethel Redding
To deny them would be calling all these folks liars. Can you live with that?

 

[JAL]

If scripture thoroughly furnishes believers, why would "voices in the head" be necessary?

If scripture thoroughly furnishes believers, why would "voices of men" be necessary? Concordances, lexicons, sermons, commentaries, and Bible translatoins - all the work of men.
Andt I just repudiated any notion that scripture thoroughly furnishes believers. Not the least of my arguments is the fact that Paul was addressing Timothy, a man of God (a prophet). You shouldn't presume to take verses out of context, applying them to the whole church.

 

[Dave L]

I'm not aware of anything from what you would consider "a reliable source".
But I found the link to healing testimonies from Bethel, Redding.
Testimonies | Bethel Redding
To deny them would be calling all these folks liars. Can you live with that?

I've heard many of "testimonies". The prayer of faith heals. But there are no Apostolic level gifts today. Raising the dead on command. Or mending twisted limbs on demand. etc.

 

[Dave L]

If scripture thoroughly furnishes believers, why would "voices of men" be necessary? Concordances, lexicons, sermons, commentaries, and Bible translatoins - all the work of men.
Andt I just repudiated any notion that scripture thoroughly furnishes believers. Not the least of my arguments is the fact that Paul was addressing Timothy, a man of God (a prophet). You shouldn't presume to take verses out of context, applying them to the whole church.

Knowing the meaning of a Greek word is not up there with chasing after voices in the head.