Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

Dave L said:

Were all Jews saved when Jesus said salvation is only of the Jews?

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So, you are claiming that Jesus was NOT the atoning sacrifice for the whole world.
That seems unbiblical for some reason. lol

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Saint Steven said:

So, you are claiming that Jesus was NOT the atoning sacrifice for the whole world.
That seems unbiblical for some reason. lol

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

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Whole world = gentiles, no longer Jews only.

Dave L said:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

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Context is my best friend.

1 Corinthians 2:12
What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

Saint Steven said:

Context is my best friend.

1 Corinthians 2:12
What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

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If Jesus paid for all sins of all people, including the sin of unbelief, all should be saved, should they not?

Dave L said:

Whole world = gentiles, no longer Jews only.

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Any way you slice it, Jesus was the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.
But that doesn't mean that everyone was automatically saved. We had to receive what was offered.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Dave L said:

If Jesus paid for all sins of all people, including the sin of unbelief, all should be saved, should they not?

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Why aren't they saved, Dave? Is there something they need to do?
Or does God only APPLY salvation to a select few will condemning the rest without reason?

Saint Steven said:

Why aren't they saved, Dave? Is there something they need to do?
Or does God only APPLY salvation to a select few will condemning the rest without reason?

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This is where you must drag in works. Why? Because you don't understand the atonement.

Dave L said:

Whole world = gentiles, not just Jews.

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I think just because He died for everyone’s sins doesn’t necessarily mean everyone will receive atonement. It can mean that He died so the entire world has the means to be forgiven. He died for the sins of the entire world but if they reject Him they will not receive atonement.

BNR32FAN said:

I think just because He died for everyone’s sins doesn’t necessarily mean everyone will receive atonement. It can mean that He died so the entire world has the means to be forgiven. He died for the sins of the entire world but if they reject Him they will not receive atonement.

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= works

Saint Steven said:

Why aren't they saved, Dave? Is there something they need to do?
Or does God only APPLY salvation to a select few will condemning the rest without reason?

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We MUST abide and bear fruit to receive salvation according to John 15:1-10. Although I do believe in some cases there may be circumstances that a person may be saved without bearing fruit. Perhaps someone who comes to true repentance on their death bed who doesn’t have the ability or opportunity to bear fruit like the thief on the cross for example. I would be willing to bet if he did have the ability he would’ve undoubtedly produced fruit otherwise he wouldn’t have been saved.

Dave L said:

= works

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John 15:1-10 specifically says we must bear fruit or we will not receive salvation. James 2:14-26 James speaks of two types of faith. He mentions a saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. It is the faith by which we are saved not the works themselves. Notice James 2:14 can that faith save him? Meaning can that kind or type of faith that is without (doesn’t produce or compell) works save him?

BNR32FAN said:

John 15:1-10 specifically says we must bear fruit or we will not receive salvation. James 2:14-26 James speaks of two types of faith. He mentions a saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. It is the faith by which we are saved not the works themselves. Notice James 2:14 can that faith save him? Meaning can that kind or type of faith that is without (doesn’t produce or compell) works save him?

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit which you must already have before the fruit can grow.

Dave L said:

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit which you must already have before the fruit can grow.

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The apostles and many others had faith before receiving the Holy Spirit.

Dave L said:

This is where you must drag in works. Why? Because you don't understand the atonement.

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You mean your opinion about the atonement. the scripture below says the atonement was for the whole world, not only for us who are saved. But what do you believe? Not that.

Does God only APPLY salvation to a select few will condemning the rest without reason?
You seem to believe so.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

BNR32FAN said:

We MUST abide and bear fruit to receive salvation according to John 15:1-10. Although I do believe in some cases there may be circumstances that a person may be saved without bearing fruit. Perhaps someone who comes to true repentance on their death bed who doesn’t have the ability or opportunity to bear fruit like the thief on the cross for example. I would be willing to bet if he did have the ability he would’ve undoubtedly produced fruit otherwise he wouldn’t have been saved.

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Salvation by works then?

Saint Steven said:

Salvation by works then?

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What is your interpretation of John 15:1-10? Also what is your definition of faith?

BNR32FAN said:

What is your interpretation of John 15:1-10? Also what is your definition of faith?

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Fruit is the evidence, not the requirement.

FAITH is: Being convinced of the eternal and fully confident in the unseen.

Saint Steven said:

You mean your opinion about the atonement. the scripture below says the atonement was for the whole world, not only for us who are saved. But what do you believe? Not that.

Does God only APPLY salvation to a select few will condemning the rest without reason?
You seem to believe so.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Click to expand...

There are many passages that define for whom Christ died. The "all men" and "whole world" passages rough it in to being not just Jews as in history, but gentiles too. And from there the scope of the atonement zeros in on believers only and the Church only. Then to the exclusion of the Pharisees who confronted Jesus in John 10, whom Jesus told he did not die for. You need to study further before assuming too much. Isaiah 53 calls the atonement's subjects "many".

Dave L said:

There are many passages that define for whom Christ died. The "all men" and "whole world" passages rough it in to being not just Jews as in history, but gentiles too. And from there the scope of the atonement zeros in on believers only and the Church only. Then to the exclusion of the Pharisees who confronted Jesus in John 10, whom Jesus told he did not die for. You need to study further before assuming too much. Isaiah 53 calls the atonement's subjects "many".

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Sorry, there is a fact here that is inescapable.
He is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also
for the sins of the whole world.

Saint Steven said:

Fruit is the evidence, not the requirement.

FAITH is: Being convinced of the eternal and fully confident in the unseen.

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“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;

The term “takes away” means cut off or removed from the vine (Christ). The Greek word used is aírō which means

away

G142


G142


Lemma:

αἴρω


Transliteration:

aírō


Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

The correct definition is referring to something that is attached to the vine in which this case means to remove or cut off.

and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

The word used for “thrown or cast” is

cast

G906+G906


G906


Lemma:

βάλλω


Transliteration:

bállō


Pronounce:

bal'-lo


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls a) to scatter, to throw, cast into b) to give over to one's care uncertain about the result c) of fluids

1) to pour, pour into of rivers

2) to pour out

2) to put into, insert


Grammar:

a primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense):--arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare ῥίπτω.

If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:1-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

So according to the Greek definitions anyone who does not produce fruit is cut off or removed from the vine (Christ) gathered and thrown away without care or regard to wither (dry up and waste away) then thrown (again without care or regard) into the fire to be burned. Nothing about these statements can result in salvation. Now consider who Jesus is speaking to. This takes place right after the Last Supper. Judas has already left the group to go betray Jesus and only Jesus and His 11 faithful apostles are walking to the olive grove in Gethsemane. So Jesus is giving this warning to His 11 faithful apostles who undoubtedly believed. So why would Jesus warn them of not abiding even explaining the consequences of not abiding if they were incapable of doing so and incapable of losing their salvation? What reason did Jesus give the goats for being condemn in Matthew 25:42? Notice the similarities in the works mentioned in Matthew 25:42-46 and James 2:15-16. These works have to do with love for others. Both of these are referring to a lack of love for others. So faith without works or bearing fruit is faith without love for others. Do you believe that type of faith is a saving faith brother?