Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

[Saint Steven]

The Apostles were the last NT prophets.

What about Anna? And Agabus?
And the four daughters of Philip the evangelist?

Acts 21:8-11
Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied. 10 After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 Coming over to us, he took Paul’s belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, “The Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.’”

Luke 2:36
There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage,

 

[JAL]

Thoroughly furnished = nothing more to be added.

When saved, I was indoctrinated into the cessationist camp. I think my belief in Sola Scriptura lasted less than a year, as I recall.


Consider 1 John 2:26:

"I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray."

Ok, clear enough. He's trying to protect them from false doctrine. What's his proposed shield? Is it exegesis? Is it seminary? He tells us in the next verse:

"As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him" (verse 27).

Jesus didn't tell the apostles to rely on seminary and exegesis for doctrine. Rather, as John recorded, a revelatory anointing would 'guide them into all truth'. Now here at verse 27, John applies the same language to his OWN disciples.

How does one KNOW himself taught of this anointing? 100% certainty is a common-sense standard (post 273). Moreover, it would be pretty lame if the very Son of God had forever doomed His apostles to a PERPETUAL STATE OF UNCERTAINTY regarding their beliefs, their mission, and their own salvation.

God hasn't doomed me to uncertainty. Therefore the same revelatory anointing available to them must be my inheritance as well. Let us go up and posses the Land.

 

[JAL]

But your doctrine has no scriptural support.

I don't think the burden of proof falls on charismatic shoulders. Here's why.

I'm sure you've heard of deism. Deism was at one time a popular belief that God created the world but refrained from further involvement thereafter, allowing it to be fully driven by natural processes. The opposite of deism is a world in which God DOES intervene. He acts, He influences, and He speaks. By all accounts, that's the biblical view - it's also the essence of the charismatic position. Any involvement of God in our lives is an exception to a purely naturalistic state of affairs - an exception to pure mechanism - and therefore counts as a charismatic/miraculous/supernatural event.

In a nutshell, the cessationist repudiation of divine involvement in our lives is a thinly veiled resurrection of Deism that flies in the face of the accounts of the Trinity and Incarnation as recorded from Genesis to Revelation. The burden of proof, therefore, hardly falls on charismatic shoulders.

 

[Dave L]

What about Anna? And Agabus?
And the four daughters of Philip the evangelist?

Acts 21:8-11
Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied. 10 After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 Coming over to us, he took Paul’s belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, “The Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.’”

Luke 2:36
There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage,

This has no effect on what I've said so far about the gifts passing into history along with the apostles who distributed them. What you need to do is compare today "knockoffs" with the originals.

 

[Dave L]

It seems that you borrowed the word "furnished" from this passage.
But to what was this referring at the time it was written?
Not to the as yet "uncompleted" NT canonized collection.

Furthermore, the "thoroughly furnished" aspect is in reference to good works.
Not a limitation on continuing revelation. In fact Revelation had not yet been written at that point, correct? (2 Timothy = 67 AD - Revelation = 95 AD)

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I had said:
"Scripture is a subset of God's word.
God's word was spoken before it was written down.
What prevents God's word from being spoken again?"

To which you replied:
"Scripture thoroughly furnishes us."

The OT grew into the NT, both considered scripture by the Apostles.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't think the burden of proof falls on charismatic shoulders. Here's why.

I'm sure you've heard of deism. Deism was at one time a popular belief that God created the world but refrained from further involvement thereafter, allowing it to be fully driven by natural processes. The opposite of deism is a world in which God DOES intervene. He acts, He influences, and He speaks. By all accounts, that's the biblical view - it's also the essence of the charismatic position. Any involvement of God in our lives is an exception to a purely naturalistic state of affairs - an exception to pure mechanism - and therefore counts as a charismatic/miraculous/supernatural event.

In a nutshell, the cessationist repudiation of divine involvement in our lives is a thinly veiled resurrection of Deism that flies in the face of the accounts of the Trinity and Incarnation as recorded from Genesis to Revelation. The burden of proof, therefore, hardly falls on charismatic shoulders.

Right.
Cessationism is a "closed book" approach to Christianity.

Or even a back turned to God with nose in book approach.
- Hands over ears; nose in book.
- Walls erected to keep God out. "We've got this. Leave us alone."
- Putting God on IGNORE in reference to new revelation.
(or even dynamic/interactive revelation) A relationship with two-way communication.
- The desire to have your prayers answered, "but not verbally, please."
Because, "I don't want to think I'm losing my mind."

 

[Saint Steven]

This has no effect on what I've said so far about the gifts passing into history along with the apostles who distributed them. What you need to do is compare today "knockoffs" with the originals.

Was Agabus' prophecy true or false?

Acts 21:8-11
Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied. 10 After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 Coming over to us, he took Paul’s belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, “The Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.’”

 

[Saint Steven]

The OT grew into the NT, both considered scripture by the Apostles.

How is that possible?
The NT wasn't a (carefully and deliberately) canonized collection of books until centuries later.

It wasn't as if the RCC said, "Hey, we should canonize this set of books that the Apostles were already using anyway."

 

[Saint Steven]

The OT grew into the NT, both considered scripture by the Apostles.

You seem to have traded "imaginary voices" for an imaginary history.
I think you got the short end of that deal. Just sayin'...

 

[Dave L]

You seem to have traded "imaginary voices" for an imaginary history.
I think you got the short end of that deal. Just sayin'...

So the OT is scripture but the NT isn't?

 

[Dave L]

How is that possible?
The NT wasn't a (carefully and deliberately) canonized collection of books until centuries later.

It wasn't as if the RCC said, "Hey, we should canonize this set of books that the Apostles were already using anyway."

The collections existed and were in circulation long before the RCC existed.

 

[Dave L]

Was Agabus' prophecy true or false?

Acts 21:8-11
Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied. 10 After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 Coming over to us, he took Paul’s belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, “The Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.’”

They had many true prophets under the Apostle's authority.

 

[Dave L]

Right.
Cessationism is a "closed book" approach to Christianity.

Or even a back turned to God with nose in book approach.
- Hands over ears; nose in book.
- Walls erected to keep God out. "We've got this. Leave us alone."
- Putting God on IGNORE in reference to new revelation.
(or even dynamic/interactive revelation) A relationship with two-way communication.
- The desire to have your prayers answered, "but not verbally, please."
Because, "I don't want to think I'm losing my mind."

You have nothing to go on claiming God speaks beyond scripture.

 

[Saint Steven]

So the OT is scripture but the NT isn't?

Based on the reference you provided.
What was "scripture" at the time of that writing?
To what EXACTLY was the Apostle referring?
Not to the NT book in your imaginary history.

 

[Saint Steven]

The collections existed and were in circulation long before the RCC existed.

Collections plural? The plot thickens.
Is this a "whodunnit" mystery?

 

[Saint Steven]

They had many true prophets under the Apostle's authority.

You seem to have an evolving theology.
A few pages back you claimed that only the Apostles were prophets.
Don't stop. You are headed in the right direction.

 

[Saint Steven]

You have nothing to go on claiming God speaks beyond scripture.

Was there a Bible when God spoke to Abram?

 

[Dave L]

Was there a Bible when God spoke to Abram?

Possibly....

 

[Dave L]

You seem to have an evolving theology.
A few pages back you claimed that only the Apostles were prophets.
Don't stop. You are headed in the right direction.

I made no such claim. I said they were prophets but also said they distributed the gifts [which included tongues and prophecy].

 

[Dave L]

Collections plural? The plot thickens.
Is this a "whodunnit" mystery?

They had copies...........