Is Continuationism or Cessationism a hard doctrine to prove?

NBB said:

You should like Jesus miracles too, nothing wrong with that.
Also lol repeating, people who do miracles / like miracles does not mean they can't follow Jesus commands. Many will do miracles and be rejected but again lol, that just one less for miracle doers, but there is a long list for anyone else.

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Many will boast, but be rejected. I wont be one of them, i'll instead follow the path of wisdom found in Jesus.

W2L said:

Many will boast, but be rejected. I wont be one of them, i'll instead follow the path of wisdom found in Jesus.

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Why reject miracles because of that? it does not make sense, is like saying you don't want a house and a car because you will boast about them.

NBB said:

Why reject miracles because of that? it does not make sense, is like saying you don't want a house and a car because you will boast about them.

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Why follow miracles? If i follow people who claim to perform miracles i might follow some rich prosperity preacher who forgot about the Lords command about not storing wealth on earth. Remember that those who the Lord rejected didn't obey His commands?

W2L said:

Why follow miracles? If i follow people who claim to perform miracles i might follow some rich prosperity preacher who forgot about the Lords command about not storing wealth on earth. Remember that those who the Lord rejected didn't obey His commands?

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I know we must follow the commandments and Jesus before miracles...
God is spiritual and supernatural, so a bit of miracles should be a normal thing to christians. In heaven there will be lots of them, better to get used to it a bit lol.
Being born again is spiritual, sort of a miracle, so.

NBB said:

I know we must follow the commandments and Jesus before miracles...
God is spiritual and supernatural, so a bit of miracles should be a normal thing to christians. In heaven there will be lots of them, better to get used to it a bit lol.
Being born again is spiritual, sort of a miracle, so.

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You keep forgetting that MANY will be deceived thinking they were doing miracles in Jesus name

W2L said:

You keep forgetting that MANY will be deceived thinking they were doing miracles in Jesus name

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Many will get deceived by many things, i think that is irrelevant.

NBB said:

Many will get deceived by many things, i think that is irrelevant.

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The Lord didnt think so.

JAL said:

Consciousness is loudness. I've belabored and demonstrated that (self-evident) point too many times on this thread to bother repeating the effort. ANY impact of the Holy Spirit in our hearts and minds, therefore, can be classified as the divine Voice (Jn 10:27).

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I think that those who contend that "the law" was from the beginning are really referring to this. What I call God's law of human conscience. I resisted the idea of it being an authority, as you had said earlier, but am now coming around on that point.

I differentiate this law of human conscience from "the law" which God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses. Even though they are very similar in many respects. But if you don't make a point of separating them, people will think we are to keep the Sabbath and observe dietary laws, etc. Tassels anyone?

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

W2L said:

You are asking me to use sectarianism to avoid sectarianism?

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I'm not asking you to "use" sectarianism.
I am saying that either sectarianism or bias is unavoidable.
The influence of intellectual environment.

I know a guy who claims to have no sectarian bias because he was not raised in the church. His brother sent him a Bible and he read it. He claims to have found the Lord that way and is now a believer. But somehow his beliefs aligned themselves with the Jehovah's Witnesses. Later you find out that was the church where he ended up. So, even though he claims no sectarian bias, he identified with the first church he aligned himself with.

It wasn't clear to me whether he came to the beliefs independently as he claimed and then found a church to match or whether he found a church and they shaped his beliefs.

Saint Steven said:

I think that those who contend that "the law" was for the beginning are really referring to this. What I call God's law of human conscience. I resisted the idea of it being an authority, as you had said earlier, but am now coming around on that point.

I differentiate this law of human conscience from "the law" which God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses. Even though they are very similar in some respects. But if you don't make a point of separating them, people will think we are to keep the Sabbath and observe dietary laws, etc.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

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Yes, you've nicely connected the dots. Our basic sense of right and wrong, and at minimum a primordial awareness of God's existence - what theologians call 'General Revelation' (Romans 1:18-20) is stamped into our souls by God. I suspect the human brain is largely part of His mechanism for creating the stamp, although that's another discussion. But yes, I think Paul formally refers to the stamp as the conscience at Rom 2:15.


How does it actually WORK? Feelings of certainty. To say that I feel certain whether an action is right or wrong is to say that I feel a sense of moral obligation, as an experience unknown to mere animals.

Left alone, however, conscience isn't well informed, for example it won't necessarily recognize the Incarnate Christ as the Messiah. So in addition to General Revelation we need Special Revelation. (In my opinion, anyone who acquiesces to the indistinctly-portrayed God of general revelation is rewarded with some degree of Special Revelation).

Special Revelation refers to the Holy Spirit directly influencing the human heart, persuading the conscience of something, via feelings of certainty, as a way of conveying information more specific, typically more accurate, than General Revelation. That's how we got saved. When this revelation is PARTICULARLY loud and clear - to the extent of persuading us to the degree of 100% certainty, I would classify it as PROPHETIC revelation. Only then is a person fully warranted in alleging, without disclaimers, 'Thus saith the LORD'.

That's why conscience is so relevant to the charismatic debate. The Inward Witness common to all Christians, is not distinct in KIND from prophetic revelation, it is only different in MAGNITUDE. The difference is quantitative, not qualitative. The same Greek word for 'reveal' and 'revelation' is applied both to prophets and to all believers, a fact conveniently glossed over in the writings of cessationists.

Many cessationists are hypocritical on this point. Meaning, they DO pray to God for insight and understanding, while repudiating prophecy! Essentially their daily petition is this, 'Dear Lord, please illuminate me today. But by ALL MEANS, do not speak to me as loud and clear as you did to the prophets!'

Sorry, but that attitude makes zero sense. That's total insanity. The church is founded on Special Revelation, and therefore the FULLNESS of Special Revelation should be a primary goal (1Cor 14:1). Interesting, isn't it, that Paul petitions God to grant the churches the FULLNESS of wisdom and revelation - i.e. he wanted them to reach HIS OWN LEVEL of special revelation. He never qualifies those petitions with the restraint, 'Except don't give them as much revelation as we prophets have enjoyed'.

I'm really spending too much time on this thread...

JAL said:

Many cessationists are hypocritical on this point. Meaning, they DO pray to God for insight and understanding, while repudiating prophecy! Essentially their daily petition is this, 'Dear Lord, please illuminate me today. But by ALL MEANS, do not speak to me as loud and clear as you did to the prophets!'

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You hit the nail on the head with that comment.
I challenged @Dave L to identify which prophetic gifts of the Spirit are no longer in operation. He said, "I believe all the "Charismatic Gifts" ceased with the completion of the NT Scriptures."

Which includes:
- a message of wisdom
- a message of knowledge
- prophecy
- prophetic tongues
- interpretation of prophetic tongues
- distinguishing between spirits

Not to mention the gifts of healing and miracles, of course.
He believes faith is a fruit of the Spirit. (which it is, but not all it is)

Dave L said:

I believe all the "Charismatic Gifts" ceased with the completion of the NT Scriptures.

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You keep forgetting that the NT is a canonized collection, not a completed work.
But I guess that is an important aspect of the house of cards Cessationist framework.

Besides, weren't there still living Apostles at what you call "the completion of the NT Scriptures"? (yes there were) Better make an adjustment there. -- And how did they know it was a "completed work" since that was not their intention?

W2L said:

Not at all. If that were so would i be talking to you now?

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I'm not making the connection between what I wrote and your reply.

Albion said:

I'm not making the connection between what I wrote and your reply.

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It doesnt matter.

Saint Steven said:

You hit the nail on the head with that comment.
I challenged @Dave L to identify which prophetic gifts of the Spirit are no longer in operation. He said, "I believe all the "Charismatic Gifts" ceased with the completion of the NT Scriptures."

Which includes:
- a message of wisdom
- a message of knowledge
- prophecy
- prophetic tongues
- interpretation of prophetic tongues
- distinguishing between spirits

Not to mention the gifts of healing and miracles, of course.
He believes faith is a fruit of the Spirit. (which it is, but not all it is)

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Right. Cessationists think they have the insight, and the right, as to specify what KINDS of illumination are valid today, and accordingly, decree prohibitions that, to you and me, seem rather arbitrary/random. It's okay for them to pray for illumination and yet, as you noted, repudiate the 'message of wisdsom' and 'message of knowledge'? God is no longer in the wisdom-business? Seriously? I plan to probe Dave a bit on these capricious distinctions, in my next post, hoping to find out exactly where he stands. Don't hold your breath waiting for a straight answer, though.

The so called message of wisdom is not a gift of the Spirit given to some. Its a promise given to all who keep the Lords commands.

JAL said:

Right. Cessationists think they have the insight, and the right, as to specify what KINDS of illumination are valid today, and accordingly, decree prohibitions that, to you and me, seem rather arbitrary/random. It's okay for them to pray for illumination and yet, as you noted, repudiate the 'message of wisdsom' and 'message of knowledge'? God is no longer in the wisdom-business? Seriously? I plan to probe Dave a bit on these capricious distinctions, in my next post, hoping to find out exactly where he stands. Don't hold your breath waiting for a straight answer, though.

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It just occurred to me that this verse applies here. (see below)
I have used it in the past to debate with those promoting "the law",
but it has an interesting application here. The new covenant is of the Spirit,
not of the letter. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Cessationists have tossed out the Spirit in favor of the letter.
That is, what is written by their "standard" doctrine theologians.
Bible Cemetery graduates. Dead religion from the crypt. lol

2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

W2L said:

The so called message of wisdom is not a gift of the Spirit given to some. Its a promise given to all who keep the Lords commands.

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Chapter and verse please. Thanks.

1 Corinthians 12:7-9
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,

Saint Steven said:

It just occurred to me that this verse applies here. (see below)
I have used it in the past to debate with those promoting "the law",
but it has an interesting application here. The new covenant is of the Spirit,
not of the letter. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The Cessationists have tossed out the Spirit in favor of the letter.
That is, what is written by their "standard" doctrine theologians.
Bible Cemetery graduates. Dead religion from the crypt. lol

2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

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The Spirit gives me life, why would i toss Him out? The truth is simple, His sheep know His voice and follow it. What have modern day apostles and prophets taught that i should follow them? Give me examples please. Thank you.

W2L said:

The so called message of wisdom is not a gift of the Spirit given to some. Its a promise given to all who keep the Lords commands.

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Actually this brings up a few interesting points.
1) The gifts are not ours to own.
2) The Holy Spirit can manifest any one of them at any time, and only once if he so chooses.
3) We all have slight "giftings" (for lack of a better term) due to the indwelling Spirit.
Including what you are saying about a message of wisdom.

What about all the other "gifts"? (for lack of a better term)