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You doubt Jesus' words about the prevailing church. I believe them.I think you keep harping on this question on account of a tunnel-vision (on your part!). You seem to think that, if there are any shortcomings in the church (such as the ones I've alleged), then hell has prevailed. But don't we both agree on the existence of shortcomings? Was Paul ecstatic about the situation in Corinth? Galatia?
Why are we debating what we both agree on?
Right. I can't remember what we are arguing about either. lolFaith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit all believers since Abel had.
They ask, "Do we have to have spiritual gifts?"All the spiritual gifts turn out to be incredible useful and encouraging for the life of a church, and many churches, when used correctly. An argument on what is "necessary" doesn't make sense to me anyway - who am I to decide what is necessary or not for the growth of God's church? It's not my church, it's His.
Nope. You're just creating false dichotomies. A church with shortcomings isn't an extinguished church. Therefore hell hasn't prevailed. That's what Jesus said, and I believe Him.You doubt Jesus' words about the prevailing church. I believe them.
My understanding is that the Charismatic gifts provided the New Covenant revelation in piecemeal fashion. But when the tongues and prophecy messages were written and collected they became the full revelation of the New Covenant.Right. I can't remember what we are arguing about either. lol
Here's a question: What do think the purpose of 1Cor.12-14 are?
Were they included in the NT so that Cessationists would have some ammo to use against Continuationists, or do they serve some lower purpose? lol
Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. You say they do.Nope. You're just creating false dichotomies. A church with shortcomings isn't an extinguished church. Therefore hell hasn't prevailed. That's what Jesus said, and I believe Him.
I've responded to this already. Future references to it will be ignored.Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. You say they do.
Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed answer. I appreciate the effort.My understanding is that the Charismatic gifts provided the New Covenant revelation in piecemeal fashion. But when the tongues and prophecy messages were written and collected they became the full revelation of the New Covenant.
Paul said to come behind in no gift waiting for the Revelation of Jesus Christ. This happened in John's writing of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. At which time the gifts disappear from history. Only hearsay comments about them occurring in obscure sects and cults exist. And God watching over his church obviously removed the originals with the completion of scripture.
Spend some time in other nations where no one has even heard of your language, and then come tell me whether tongues is "necessary"..
All the spiritual gifts turn out to be incredible useful and encouraging for the life of a church, and many churches, when used correctly. An argument on what is "necessary" doesn't make sense to me anyway - who am I to decide what is necessary or not for the growth of God's church? It's not my church, it's His.
The gifts are "grace" gifts (charis). God decided to give gifts to make the work He gave work better. That's his decision, obviously.
As for the argument around the apostles needing to lay hands on people for the gift, that would mean that Paul had to have laid hands on everyone in Corinth who had the gift, implying that any new people who came in didn't have any gifts because Paul was not there. That certainly doesn't seem to be the case. Rather, it appears a lot of new people were misusing the gift and Paul had to teach them. Why did he have to teach them? Why is it that the Corinthian church could misuse the gifts and yet those gifts are still labelled by cessationists as genuine, but a modern day misuse of gifts is a sign of the gifts not being genuine? I'm afraid this is a contradiction in the cessationist argument that is never answered satisfactorily.
Secondly, your quotation of Romans disproves your point. You don't have any evidence that an apostle planted that church and laid hands on people and gave then the gift of prophecy. You've simply stared that obviously it must have been some sort of apostle - a case of eisegesis.
Thirdly, it appears that all 120 that were in the upper room in Acts 2 got the gift of tongues. Now, were all these 120 apostles? If so, who else was an apostle that we don't know about? And why then could there not be apostles today?
To be frank, the problem I find with most cessationist churches (not all, but most) is they are incredibly homogenous, they don't know how to deal with people of different races, and they lack a great deal in evangelicalistic zeal. If you only ever stick to your neighbourhood and class you're not going to see the "necessity" of the gifts. Get out a bit more and the need for them becomes patently obvious.
At Post 122 you said:
"If tongues will end on its own and it is a sign of judgement to unbelieving Israel in Christ's day, what need is there for it after that judgment that it was foretelling has passed? The maturity has no bearing on the ending of tongues."
At Post 122 you said:
"If tongues will end on its own and it is a sign of judgement to unbelieving Israel in Christ's day, what need is there for it after that judgment that it was foretelling has passed? The maturity has no bearing on the ending of tongues."
When exactly do you think this scripture was written?
James 5:13-15
Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.
James was writing to the churches in the first centuries. (and for us today)I've already explained this. The gift of healing was the ability to heal. When Peter raised the lame man he didn't praise and then come back next week and see if the guy could walk. He said told him to get up. When Paul raised the dead, he didn't pray and come back a few days later and see what happened. James is talking about going to God in prayer and seeking healing for someone. They may be healed, the may not. It wasn't that way with the apostles.
James was writing to the churches in the first centuries. (and for us today)
We don't always have all the details on what went on. Here is a story where Jesus worked through a process with a healing. The sort of process you claim didn't happen back then.
Mark 8:23-25
He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man’s eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, “Do you see anything?” 24 He looked up and said, “I see people; they look like trees walking around.” 25 Once more Jesus put his hands on the man’s eyes. Then his eyes were opened, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly.
There's that chronic problem again. lolWhere did I say this didn't happen?
You intimated that the purpose of the tongues was a sign, and that it ceased when the sign was no longer needed.I was talking of the sign of the judgment, not the need of the gifts in the church. This is why context is so important. People just pick and choose what they want and then interpret it however, the feel.
That's not what I said. You might want to re-read that againThere's that chronic problem again. lol
You don't remember claiming that healing today is not like the first century?
What Jesus did is the same interview style methodology we use today.
I've already explained this. The gift of healing was the ability to heal. When Peter raised the lame man he didn't praise and then come back next week and see if the guy could walk. He said told him to get up.
When Paul raised the dead, he didn't pray and come back a few days later and see what happened. James is talking about going to God in prayer and seeking healing for someone. They may be healed, the may not. It wasn't that way with the apostles.
You intimated that the purpose of the tongues was a sign, and that it ceased when the sign was no longer needed.
To claim that gifts were largely just 'sign-gifts' that are 'no longer needed today' has the ring of standard cessationist dogma. You can hardly fault me for that assessment, and I still fail to see where I'm at fault. Put yourself in my shoes. Having witnessed similar-sounding statements so many times from so many cessationists, it's virtually impossible for me to read your words any other way.
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