Is Christianity a religion of "No?"

Carl Emerson · Jun 4, 2021

Bertrand Russell White said:
Sorry, you!

Nothing special...

Background in electronics engineering, worked in Europe Scandanavia and Africa,
Uni - three years at Otago - anthropology, psychology, phenomenology of religion, History and philosophy of science, four years sociological research at Ilam, more recently renewable energy and aerospace engineering.

But,

Sense of the reality of God by age of about 3.
Face to face encounter with Jesus at 8.
Born again at 13.
Baptised at 16.
Fell away from faith 11 years.
Drawn into drugs and fringes of occult.
Committed to mental institution - administered ECT - reduced to vegetable state.

But,

Folks prayed.
Miraculously released and knew I must reconnect to Christian roots.
Took off into the country to find Him again.
Powerful encounter with Him triggered prodigals return.
This began 7 years rebuilding and healing and 5+ years reading nothing but scripture.

Then,

Married with five children, gifted to pray for the struggling.
Waited 40 years to share my testimony.

and here I am.

You can read more here...

Jesus's Ministry

Philip_B · Jun 4, 2021

Bertrand Russell White said:
I think the existence or non-existence of god is impossible to establish.

Tillich is quite insightful in this area. In the end I believe the Church, and many Christians, have spent too long arguing about or for the existence of God, when a proper understanding would suggest that God is before existence, and our true existence is only understood in the context of God.

Albion · Jun 4, 2021

seeking.IAM said:
Possibly so. But do we have our emphasis in the wrong place?

It's a good question, but after some thought I'm still inclined to say "no."

To me, it seems that the two are about even in emphasis, but as I was trying to say, the "don'ts" are probably more often the subject of debate.

That may appear to be another way of saying "emphasis," but I don't think it actually is. It's just that there is such agreement on the "do's" that there's less controversy surrounding them.

Or, I could be completely wrong.

Bertrand Russell White · Jun 4, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Smile...

The irony is that when I studied the philosophy of science I was told in no uncertain terms that there was no place for absolutes in formal argument.

Yes, unfortunately the philosophy of science when it demands such things (gets involved with philosophy) slips up on logical positivism own problem with the verification principle. I suppose this is why science types sometimes still sound a lot like the Vienna School.

You have followed this rule perfectly.

You cant possibly prove the existence of God using that tool.

Correct, neither prove nor disprove. All rational attempts I don't believe can prove or disprove such things.

It is not surprising that Jesus requires of us a response from the heart, not the mind.

It took a long time for Pauls mind to catch up with what had happened in his heart.

Unless you become as a little Child you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

And how can you claim that He requires that ethical principles are 'objective' in fact how would you know if you don't believe He exists?

Whether I do or don't is not the question I'm addressing here. This is the Christian sense of objective ethics. What I'm arguing is the inconsistency from within the Christian worldview of objective ethics - if you insist god can break what are considered objective ethical principles. If there is objective ethics it must be independent of god otherwise it can't be objective. Is it objective, therefore? I don't think all morality and ethics is because it varies so much within culture and across cultures (even different Christian cultures).

Surely you are not suggesting some absolute beyond man???

Depends what you mean by absolute. Infinite? We can conceive and manipulate mathematical entities to a point, that are infinite. If we define objects in ways like the infinite, perhaps we can think of absolutes beyond man. It may be asked, are these real? I don't believe we can ever tell, like questions about god. So I would say indeterminant because how would you know you understood or defined something absolutely if it was infinite? How can you know what you don't know without discovery. And you can't discover an infinite number of unknowns in a finite amount of time. Many would deny that you can go anywhere without reason and try to rely on faith. At prominent atheist George Smith makes this point very convincingly in his book The Case Against God. This provides the theist no end of logical problems.

Bertrand Russell White · Jun 4, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Nothing special...

Background in electronics engineering, worked in Europe Scandanavia and Africa,
Uni - three years at Otago - anthropology, psychology, phenomenology of religion, History and philosophy of science, four years sociological research at Ilam, more recently renewable energy and aerospace engineering.

But,

Sense of the reality of God by age of about 3.
Face to face encounter with Jesus at 8.
Born again at 13.
Baptised at 16.
Fell away from faith 11 years.
Drawn into drugs and fringes of occult.
Committed to mental institution - administered ECT - reduced to vegetable state.

But,

Folks prayed.
Miraculously released and knew I must reconnect to Christian roots.
Took off into the country to find Him again.
Powerful encounter with Him triggered prodigals return.
This began 7 years rebuilding and healing and 5+ years reading nothing but scripture.

Then,

Married with five children, gifted to pray for the struggling.
Waited 40 years to share my testimony.

and here I am.

You can read more here...

Jesus's Ministry

I would disagree about not being special. Everyone is special - whether viewed just biologically or by faith (god knows every hair on our head, we are fearfully and wonderfully made etc.). You sound like you have had good reason to have faith. I will pick this conversation up later...Got to go to bed. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

d taylor · Jun 4, 2021

If you want God's free gift of Eternal Life, then i would suggest yes instead of no.

FireDragon76 · Jun 5, 2021

Bertrand Russell White said:
Yes, unfortunately the Bible Colleges have a very low standard of academic excellence. They do not generally get into any critical thinking about the Bible - not at the undergrad level anyway. The thinking is all predicated on the assumption that the Bible is infallible. Kind of a critical thinking show stopper. The people who come out of these places and the associated seminaries are not committed to letting the evidence of critical scholarship, archeology and science lead them but preconceived assumptions about the Bible. This is not scholarship but apologetics. Those fundamentalists who were very good scholars and honest with themselves realized this and have given up these assumptions: people like Bart Ehrman, Hector Avalos and John Loftus. Any Christian that considers themselves openminded, should read these three authors.

Not just a lack of critical thinking, but a great deal of religious traditions that are unquestioned (the implications are seldom drawn out that way). This specifically leads to moral and ethical errors. This is true of many religions, not just Christianity, but religions like Christianity potentially have a great deal to lose by engaging with modernism seriously.

Bertrand Russell White said:
What is your religious background? You seem to have an interesting education. What people did you study in your program?

Were you addressing me? (I assume so as I was the last person you replied to before).

My background: I was raised Methodist. I have practiced Buddhism in the past, then I reverted to Christianity as a young adult. Now I don't identify with any particular religion, though I do practice meditation.

I have studied biblical scholarship, Christian theology and the sociology of religion in detail.

Bertrand Russell White · Jun 5, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
Not just a lack of critical thinking, but a great deal of religious traditions that are unquestioned (the implications are seldom drawn out that way). This specifically leads to moral and ethical errors. This is true of many religions, not just Christianity, but religions like Christianity potentially have a great deal to lose by engaging with modernism seriously.

Agreed. Anglican Bishop Richard Holloway recommends that religion should get out of the business of ethics. Yes, so far Christianity is not doing very well engaging with modernism. In Canada, two of the traditionally largest Protestant denominations (Anglican and United Church) are slated to be extinct by about 2040 in 40 year trends continue.

Were you addressing me? (I assume so as I was the last person you replied to before).

Interesting background

My background: I was raised Methodist. I have practiced Buddhism in the past, then I reverted to Christianity as a young adult. Now I don't identify with any particular religion, though I do practice meditation.

Yes, I was raised an equivalent to a very liberal Methodism myself. In Canada we have a denomination called the United Church of Canada (UCC) which united all the Methodist Churches, all the Congregational Churches and about 70% of all the Presbyterian Churches in Canada in 1925. It developed a Sunday School curriculum based on higher criticism in the 1950's so we were learning about Bultmann before we left high school. I actually learned how to think pretty critically before ever going to University. My family came from the Methodist wing and the theology school (part of the University of Toronto) have been teaching higher criticism and evolution since about the 1870's.

I have studied biblical scholarship, Christian theology and the sociology of religion in detail.

So I suppose you have studied most of the theories/methods of Biblical Criticism and postmodern criticism. I have studied some of this stuff. I recently got some books from a friend that started taking seminary level courses and have been starting to go through them.

It is hard to believe that today, there are many denominations where people know nothing of the modern understanding of the Bible and higher criticism.

FireDragon76 · Jun 5, 2021

Bertrand Russell White said:
So I suppose you have studied most of the theories/methods of Biblical Criticism and postmodern criticism. I have studied some of this stuff. I recently got some books from a friend that started taking seminary level courses and have been starting to go through them.

It is hard to believe that today, there are many denominations where people know nothing of the modern understanding of the Bible and higher criticism.

Yes, I have studied Biblical higher criticism, modern, and postmodern theologies. There are some intelligent and conscentious people involved in those fields, but I can't say the same about Evangelicalism on the whole.

The main reason I am not a Christian is ethical. The awareness of the re-emergence of Christian nationalism in the US, along with widespread complicitly and complacency of even liberal institutions in enabling this dangerous and harmful ideology, made it untenable for me to remain one. The widespread presence of Christian nationalists among those storming the capitol did not shock me all that much as being unexpected (I'd been reading about the rise of "Positive Christianity" in Germany for years), and in my mind is just a salient feature of a more disturbing trend.

Bertrand Russell White · Jun 5, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Nothing special...

We have a lot in common!!

Background in electronics engineering, Background in computer and telecommunications - all areas except programming - worked with several large pharma companies including in UK and Sweden worked in Europe Scandanavia and Africa,
Uni - three years at Otago - anthropology, psychology, phenomenology of religion, History and philosophy of science, four years sociological research at Ilam, more recently renewable energy and aerospace engineering. University - Theoretical Physics and Math, and Advanced Supply Chain Management using Advanced Technology

But,

Sense of the reality of God by age of about 3. for me this was 2 - 3, talking about Trinity with father at 4, always interested in theoretical physics, philosophy, theology and advanced mathematics
Face to face encounter with Jesus at 8. Same/BA experience as well didn't understand it as grew up in Liberal Church
Born again at 13. BA experience at 20 after first year U
Baptised at 16. about 25
Fell away from faith 11 years. Didn't /pretty stable most of life
Drawn into drugs and fringes of occult. Never interested in this as I knew my OC and other strong unhealthy tendencies would probably lead me terrible results
Committed to mental institution - administered ECT - reduced to vegetable state. Never went through anything like this but found out my biological mother had schizoaffective disorder.
Have at different times in life spiritual experiences. My son, who is an engineer, has experienced some of these things because of stress and improper medications being given. He was in an institution for a short time. I found it a very interesting place as many people talked about experiences of god and other interesting things. I realized how close I am to this and had fun playing tricks on the nurses pretending I was insane. They couldn't tell the difference !

But,

Folks prayed.
Miraculously released and knew I must reconnect to Christian roots.
Took off into the country to find Him again.
Powerful encounter with Him triggered prodigals return.
This began 7 years rebuilding and healing and 5+ years reading nothing but scripture.

Then,

Married with five children, gifted to pray for the struggling.
Waited 40 years to share my testimony.

and here I am.

You can read more here...

Jesus's Ministry

Yes, those of us who have a certain type of brain definitely will or can have different experiences than the average person. Drugs and more extreme religions are a definite no no unless one wants to risk having to go into a mental institution and try to recalibrate their brain.

Bertrand Russell White · Jun 5, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
Yes, I have studied Biblical higher criticism, modern, and postmodern theologies. There are some intelligent and conscentious people involved in those fields, but I can't say the same about Evangelicalism on the whole.

The main reason I am not a Christian is ethical. The awareness of the re-emergence of Christian nationalism in the US, along with widespread complicitly and complacency of even liberal institutions in enabling this dangerous and harmful ideology, made it untenable for me to remain one. The widespread presence of Christian nationalists among those storming the capitol did not shock me all that much as being unexpected (I'd been reading about the rise of "Positive Christianity" in Germany for years), and in my mind is just a salient feature of a more disturbing trend.

I love history so I can relate to what you are saying. Just before the rise of Trump, I was reading about the development of propaganda in WWI to get America into the war. I found the strands of history from WWI interesting as they involved so much: intentional rise of the anti-communist sentiment leading to the development of the FBI and Hoover, Madison Avenue from the Propaganda of WWI that is directly connected to Bernay's and Freud's early psychology work, Goebbels appropriation of these techniques in Germany etc. At the same time, I started reading a lot of Chris Hedges stuff and books he would refer to. He blamed the liberal elite including the Christian liberal church for being complicit in not doing their duty to stand against some of the negative forces developing in USA society (Death of the Liberal Class). America has so many national myths that revolve around seeing themselves as very religious nation (which they tend to be compared to other modern western nations) even though the nation was founded on secular principles primarily. I find these myths interesting because my own first ancestors to North America came to Plymouth in 1635 and married into the Plymouth Compact. The first ancestor was Baptist before the Baptists formerly existed in the colonies! Other ancestors fought with George Washington when Washington was an British General and with the 20th Maine Regiment at Gettysburg.

Have you read books on the American Empire by Chalmers Johnson? If you haven't, I would recommend them as he outlines the rise of the American Empire. You would think we had gone back in time to the Roman Empire.

FireDragon76 · Jun 5, 2021

Bertrand Russell White said:
I love history so I can relate to what you are saying. Just before the rise of Trump, I was reading about the development of propaganda in WWI to get America into the war. I found the strands of history from WWI interesting as they involved so much: intentional rise of the anti-communist sentiment leading to the development of the FBI and Hoover, Madison Avenue from the Propaganda of WWI that is directly connected to Bernay's and Freud's early psychology work, Goebbels appropriation of these techniques in Germany etc. At the same time, I started reading a lot of Chris Hedges stuff and books he would refer to. He blamed the liberal elite including the Christian liberal church for being complicit in not doing their duty to stand against some of the negative forces developing in USA society (Death of the Liberal Class). America has so many national myths that revolve around seeing themselves as very religious nation (which they tend to be compared to other modern western nations) even though the nation was founded on secular principles primarily. I find these myths interesting because my own first ancestors to North America came to Plymouth in 1635 and married into the Plymouth Compact. The first ancestor was Baptist before the Baptists formerly existed in the colonies! Other ancestors fought with George Washington when Washington was an British General and with the 20th Maine Regiment at Gettysburg.

Have you read books on the American Empire by Chalmers Johnson? If you haven't, I would recommend them as he outlines the rise of the American Empire. You would think we had gone back in time to the Roman Empire.

I like Hedges alot, but sadly his voice is a minority in liberal churches. He is right to call out the liberal class in the US for being complicit in this nonsense. They care more about their narcissistic sense of decency than they do about the moral underpinnings that make liberal democracy possible.

Bertrand Russell White · Jun 5, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
Yes, I have studied Biblical higher criticism, modern, and postmodern theologies. There are some intelligent and conscentious people involved in those fields, but I can't say the same about Evangelicalism on the whole.

Yes, Evangelicalism isn't about scholarship as much as being about apologetics. Have you read Richard Carrier's two books: Proving History: Bayes' Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus and On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt? He makes some interesting suggestions on how to improve and extend research into the historical Jesus.

The main reason I am not a Christian is ethical. The awareness of the re-emergence of Christian nationalism in the US, along with widespread complicitly and complacency of even liberal institutions in enabling this dangerous and harmful ideology, made it untenable for me to remain one. The widespread presence of Christian nationalists among those storming the capitol did not shock me all that much as being unexpected (I'd been reading about the rise of "Positive Christianity" in Germany for years), and in my mind is just a salient feature of a more disturbing trend.

Bertrand Russell White · Jun 5, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
I like Hedges alot, but sadly his voice is a minority in liberal churches. He is right to call out the liberal class in the US for being complicit in this nonsense. They care more about their narcissistic sense of decency than they do about the moral underpinnings that make liberal democracy possible.

What are some of the authors you like to read besides people like Hedges? I'm always on the lookout for authors who I have not read before. People that talk amount current history or issues like a person like Hedges would write on.

FireDragon76 · Jun 5, 2021

Bertrand Russell White said:
What are some of the authors you like to read besides people like Hedges? I'm always on the lookout for authors who I have not read before. People that talk amount current history or issues like a person like Hedges would write on.

Noam Chomsky is the only other author as far as histories go that is comparable to Hedges that I am familiar with.

I am familiar with Richard Carrier but I'm not a Jesus mythicist. My view of Jesus is more consonant with the Jesus' Seminar or Arthur Schweitzer's own quest. I do think Jesus existed but the factual events of his life we can know for sure don't fit with Evangelicalism's certainties.

Bertrand Russell White · Jun 5, 2021

FireDragon76 said:
Noam Chomsky is the only other author as far as histories go that is comparable to Hedges that I am familiar with.

I am familiar with Richard Carrier but I'm not a Jesus mythicist. My view of Jesus is more consonant with the Jesus' Seminar or Arthur Schweitzer's own quest. I do think Jesus existed but the factual events of his life we can know for sure don't fit with Evangelicalism's certainties.

I'm aware of Chomsky and read a couple of things - not much. Carrier is interesting even if you don't agree with him. His proposal for better understanding who Jesus was seems to me to be an improvement on the existing methods. There seems to be very little that we know of the Jesus of history.

RDKirk · Jun 5, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Injustice is punishing the wrong people...

What do you want from God? Justice or mercy?

hedrick · Jun 5, 2021

RDKirk said:
What do you want from God? Justice or mercy?

Both. Justice means not allowing evil to continue. There are real advantages to living in a just world. There should be merciful ways of doing justice.

RDKirk · Jun 5, 2021

hedrick said:
Both. Justice means not allowing evil to continue. There are real advantages to living in a just world. There should be merciful ways of doing justice.

There is no such thing as a "merciful way of doing justice." Mercy is justice deferred, by definition.

In an absolutely just world, we'd all have been struck by lightning before we'd reached our teens.

hedrick · Jun 5, 2021

RDKirk said:
There is no such thing as a "merciful way of doing justice." Mercy is justice deferred, by definition.

In an absolutely just world, we'd all have been struck by lightning before we'd reached our teens.

We have very different concepts of justice. Justice is not just punishing people for sin. It's restoring the right. Timothy Keller on Justice in the Bible

We may also have different concepts of mercy. Mercy is not leaving someone in sin.

Is Christianity a religion of "No?"

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