Is Calvinism Just?

[bling]

You keep shifting the conversation. Romans 9 indeed addresses God choosing and addresses calling and quite a few more themes.

Romans 9: NASB

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Read again my post 638

 

[-57]

People have a real hard time humbling themselves to the point of accepting pure sacrificial charity.

Thanks for the response, but you're just presenting a condition of the human and not the reason as to why some can humble themselves and why some can't.

 

[Albion]

The problem is when, it is said: “there is no difference between the individual God selects and those He does not select”, that is describing an arbitrary selection.

I can't seem to locate the quotation you are citing here.

 

[bling]

No one can be sure, no matter which line of though (s)he takes.

What about the indwelling Holy Spirit?

 

[bling]

You are wrong. I know and walk with God. I know his voice and have a lifetime of obeying it at least sometimes. I keep Jesus teaching and to that degree he has come and made his home in me. It’s all conditional, very conditional. It isn’t my theology that makes a difference, it’s knowing and obeying Him (the former highly dependent upon the latter.)

But if there were no heaven, no salvation, I’d walk with him the same.

What about the indwelling Holy Spirit?

 

[bling]

Thanks for the response, but you're just presenting a condition of the human and not the reason as to why some can humble themselves and why some can't.

They all can humble themselves in the one simple autonomous free will choice allowed by God, which is to accept or reject His charity. The soldier who surrenders on the battle field is not doing anything honorable, worthy or noble and at the moment would still be hating his enemy and may feel he will be tortured to death for his war crimes, but for selfish reason (unrighteous reasons) he is willing to humbly accept undeserved charity from even his enemy.

 

[-57]

They all can humble themselves in the one simple autonomous free will choice allowed by God, which is to accept or reject His charity. The soldier who surrenders on the battle field is not doing anything honorable, worthy or noble and at the moment would still be hating his enemy and may feel he will be tortured to death for his war crimes, but for selfish reason (unrighteous reasons) he is willing to humbly accept undeserved charity from even his enemy.

I don't think a selfish reason is a humble reason. But still is may be a reason...a reason based upon what?

According to the Arminian a person must choose. They often sight prevenient grace....God pushes you in the right direction...starts a good work in you... then says choose. There must be some deciding factor on why one would humbly accept undeserved charity from even his enemy. What thoughts go into making this decision? Where do those thought come from?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Are you another who claims they don't sin?

Of course not, where did you get that idea from? The post you replied to said everything but that. IOW, I stated Christ died for our sin (meaning we sin) then you take that as a claim I don't sin?

Could you stick with the question please, and tell me why you think I've lost my salvation?

 

[bling]

N

No all are condemned. God chooses to save some.

If a rescuer could just as easily and safely save everyone, but knowingly only saved a few what would you think of such a rescuer?

God is willing and wanting everyone to be saved, but if the person refuses to accept pure charity to the point that person would never accept pure charity (Love) than that person would not be happy in heaven, where there is only charity (unselfish, unconditional, Godly type Love). God is not going to force you to accept His Love (like He is holding a gun on you at some shotgun wedding) and God cannot instinctively place Godly Love in you (that would make it a robotic type of love).

 

[bling]

I don't think a selfish reason is a humble reason. But still is may be a reason...a reason based upon what?

According to the Arminian a person must choose. They often sight prevenient grace....God pushes you in the right direction...starts a good work in you... then says choose. There must be some deciding factor on why one would humbly accept undeserved charity from even his enemy. What thoughts go into making this decision? Where do those thought come from?

I am not Arminian.
Those thoughts come from scripture look at the prodigal son (Luke 15). The young son did nothing honorable, worthy of anything and noble and in fact he can reason: I am getting what I fully deserve, you have to pay the piper sometime, I can't ask my father for an undeserved charity and further upset him with my presence and I will just be adding fuel to my brother's contempt. The son wanted just some kind of undeserved livable life and chose to be humble to possible have such a life, while other have good reason to stay and starve to death in the pigsty of life.

 

[bling]

Romans 9 tells us we are selected before we are even born...do anything good or bad.....in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls.

Read my post 638.

 

[MDC]

Of course not, where did you get that idea from? The post you replied to said everything but that. IOW, I stated Christ died for our sin (meaning we sin) then you take that as a claim I don't sin?

Could you stick with the question please, and tell me why you think I've lost my salvation?

If the elect can lose their salvation then Christ has failed. That’s basically what those who hold to such a doctrine are saying

 

[-57]

I am not Arminian.
Those thoughts come from scripture look at the prodigal son (Luke 15). The young son did nothing honorable, worthy of anything and noble and in fact he can reason: I am getting what I fully deserve, you have to pay the piper sometime, I can't ask my father for an undeserved charity and further upset him with my presence and I will just be adding fuel to my brother's contempt. The son wanted just some kind of undeserved livable life and chose to be humble to possible have such a life, while other have good reason to stay and starve to death in the pigsty of life.

I typically think of the prodigal son as one who is extremely backslidden and then came to his senses.

 

[-57]

Read my post 638.

What's your main point?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Read my post 638.

What's your main point?

See that little dot , that tiny black circle, at the end of the post, right after the "8" ?

That's the only point in the post itself, isn't it ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Thanks for the response, but you're just presenting a condition of the human and not the reason as to why some can humble themselves and why some can't.

??
Some people have pride.
Some people don't.
Each person chooses whether to turn to the Creator or not to.
The proud resist Him.
The humble faithful PRAISE HIM !

 

[Kenny'sID]

If the elect can lose their salvation then Christ has failed. That’s basically what those who hold to such a doctrine are saying

Actually, what's being said is no more than OSAS attempting to deceive one into believing OSAS by making them feel guilty/as though they are doubting Christ if they refuse. When the truth is, that's nonsense, as very basic good sense tells us Christ has not failed, we have.

It's a deception a kin to telling one they are guilty of trying to be saved by works if they feel they need to be obedient to God.

Fair warning for those who might be duped by those commonly repeated, clearly nonsensical deceptions.

 

[-57]

??
Some people have pride.
Some people don't.
Each person chooses whether to turn to the Creator or not to.
The proud resist Him.
The humble faithful PRAISE HIM !

Why do some people have pride?

 

[Albion]

Actually, what's being said is no more than OSAS attempting to deceive one into believing OSAS by making them feel guilty/as though they are doubting Christ if they refuse. When the truth is, that's nonsense, as very basic good sense tells us Christ has not failed, we have.

I think the point there was that Christ cannot fail, therefore the Elect cannot be lost.

It's a deception a kin to telling one they are guilty of trying to be saved by works if they feel they need to be obedient to God.

We all need to be obedient to God. It's only an issue when someone says that how well you do it determines if you will be saved or lost.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I think the point there was that Christ cannot fail, therefore the Elect cannot be lost.

I know, and as I said it's not Christ that fails if we lose our salvation.

We all need to be obedient to God. It's only an issue when someone says that how well you do it determines if you will be saved or lost.

In a very real sense, that's a fact, and God will determine how well we do it, or who was sincerely trying, and who was not.

By "how well we do it" being a problem, are you saying if we fail to make serious effort to live as we are told to, we are still good to go to heaven in Gods eyes?