redleghunter

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I prefer your answer because we have different interpretations of the scriptures. The unelected were NEVER CAPABLE of meeting God’s expectations, correct?
What we can derive from Holy Scriptures is that God Sovereignly elects. Some are elect and some are not. Now when Paul in Romans 9 makes his proposition of the one who would rail against God doing such a thing, he rebukes such thought as fallen human thought on how God should be more just according to man's concept of justice.

So your demand in asking another human being if those who are not Sovereignly elected by God "were never capable of meeting God's expectations" the Biblical answer is no human born in sin throughout the history of creation are/were ever capable of meeting God's expectations. Only Jesus Christ met God's expectations for Perfection and Holiness. That is why God in love and in his mercy sent His only begotten son to take on flesh (Incarnation), suffer for our sins, die for our sins, buried and risen again so that we may have life eternally with Him.

The second part of this is your question of election. Sovereign Election is Biblical. God does not explain why some are elect and some are not other than telling us in John 10 that the Father gives His sheep to the Son and the Son keeps them, lays down His life for them and they will never perish. And with the Apostle Paul showing that God chooses His people before the foundation of the earth (before space, time and matter aka before Creation).

Now the shadow/type for God's election is in the OT. He sought out individuals and by extension a nation to be set aside to be Holy. I guess using this type and shadow one could ask or rail against God on why were the Syrians not offered the same deal as Israel? Why not the Russians? The Chinese? Why not the Saxons? How about the Ukrainians? They got a raw deal?

What we do know is God chose according to His will and purpose; His will and purpose will not be thwarted; and He did so for His Name and Glory. With His choosing He was very possessive of and "jealous" against anything or anyone who got in the way of His relationship with His chosen people.

We see the same thematic election in the NT as well. But under a better covenant in the Blood of Jesus Christ. I already posted Ezekiel 36:22-32 which gives us the foreshadowing of the New Covenant, and also posted Ephesians chapters 1 and 2, Romans 9-11, and will add now the entire book of Hebrews (which discusses the New Covenant compared with the Old) showing this thematic relationship of a Sovereign God who chooses, elects, and Saves according to His will and purpose for His Name and for His Glory.

This 'thematic' is what you and some others are arguing against. Not Calvinism but the very Holy Scriptures which reveal the thematic.
 
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claninja

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Who said they did? Why do you all keep saying something that is completely made up. If I'm wrong, please show me where the claim was made that works save?

It was simply a clarification on my part. I was asked if loving God and man was "work". I stated as I am a sinner, love is work. Love is sacrifice. But I was clarifying that this "work" doesn't save me.

My point being that God needs to intervene and regenerate me in order for me to truly love God and my neighbor
.
 
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8484838

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Paul assured him if he believes (without choosing to in the flesh) he will be one of the lucky ones.
If Paul was a Calvinist, he would have told the Philippian jailor "Be thou elect, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" when he asked him, "What must I do to be saved?"

There's no point of having faith because it is God working within a person whether it's against their own will or not because there is no free will in Calvinism.
 
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Dave L

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If Paul was a Calvinist, he would have told the Philippian jailor "Be thou elect, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" when he asked him, "What must I do to be saved?"

There's no point of having faith because it is God working within a person whether it's against their own will or not because there is no free will in Calvinism.
No, he simply assured him his faith is evidence God saved him.
 
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8484838

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No, he simply assured him his faith is evidence God saved him.
That's not what he did at all. What he did was tell him how to be saved, which was "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." It was a condition, just like Romans 10:9 is a condition. The same condition of salvation... if you believe, you will be saved. If not, then you are condemned already (John 3:18, John 3:36). To become sealed with the Spirit, one must FIRST hear and believe the Gospel according to Ephesians 1:13.
 
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8484838

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Have you ever received a pat on the back? I works the same way for those who receive Christ by grace.
That makes no sense. Salvation is not a pat on the back. Salvation is a gift to be received by "whosoever will."
 
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claninja

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So it is just to punish the unelected in the lake of fire for all eternity for failure to meet God’s impossible expectations? That’s what Calvin’s theology teaches. The unelected are completely incapable of meeting God’s expectations.

Scripture never states the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment. If it did, then I would agree that is unjust. Scripture states the wages of sin is death. Revelation is a highly symbolic book. The lake of fire symbolizes the 2nd death (revelation 20:15).

All are unable to meet the righteous requirements (God's expectations). That's why God sent his Son to fulfil the law, die, and rise again (romans 8:3-4)
 
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claninja

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Then you can be saved without love?

No one can be saved without the love of God. For God so loved the world that he sent his son. Love is a work. God, in the flesh, perfectly fulfilled the law and died because of his love for us. God performed the ultimate work that we could never do.

I cannot truly love God and my neighbor unless he regenerates me.
I love because he FIRST loved me.

1 John 4:18 We love because he first loved us
 
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Albion

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So how does he choose then? I kind of thought unconditional meant unconditional.
Unconditional means without reference to that person's works or anything else that he will do. God does not, IOW, choose someone because he knows how he will turn out and likes what he sees, so he writes that name in the book of life. That wouldn't be predestination. How God makes his choices has not been given to us to know.
 
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rnmomof7

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Ah a Calvinist into the frey. (I knew that at the second word you wrote. For Calvinists, their doctrine is it and they merely "admit" it to be so without examining or letting it be examined.)

God has created the world such that he does not need to exercise control over every atom. ANyone who has studied science knows this. Even reproduction goes along nicely on its own without a miracel intervention from Him.

Could we have the scripture on that?
The statment that man can do nothing apart from GOd means God is the reason for all the evil in the world since men do evil and according to you, God is not apart from their doing so. So God in involved in all the evil we see. You have also a Biblical problem with that. When the atoms of the water God sovereignly controlled threatened to overturn Jesus' boat, why did Jesus rebuke them?

Who was the cause of the worse crime in all humanity?
Why does the BIble say that men did what never had occured to God if we do only as God has determined? Doesn't God talk to himself so He knows what he has decided we will do? By the way, are you ever angry at anyone? YOu shouldn't ever be angry at anything anyone does cause your god determined them to do that to you. YOu are being angry at your view of GOd. I bring this up because no one lives with your above stated position. No one. It does not fit real life as we know it.

Scripture please
SO next time you are angry at any man, quote to yourself the above verse in Romans and see if that quiets you down. Btw, I was ordainged to write these things to you according to you.

Yes.. it is only God that gives men ears to hear and eyes to see...
 
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bling

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What we can derive from Holy Scriptures is that God Sovereignly elects. Some are elect and some are not. Now when Paul in Romans 9 makes his proposition of the one who would rail against God doing such a thing, he rebukes such thought as fallen human thought on how God should be more just according to man's concept of justice.

So your demand in asking another human being if those who are not Sovereignly elected by God "were never capable of meeting God's expectations" the Biblical answer is no human born in sin throughout the history of creation are/were ever capable of meeting God's expectations. Only Jesus Christ met God's expectations for Perfection and Holiness. That is why God in love and in his mercy sent His only begotten son to take on flesh (Incarnation), suffer for our sins, die for our sins, buried and risen again so that we may have life eternally with Him.

The second part of this is your question of election. Sovereign Election is Biblical. God does not explain why some are elect and some are not other than telling us in John 10 that the Father gives His sheep to the Son and the Son keeps them, lays down His life for them and they will never perish. And with the Apostle Paul showing that God chooses His people before the foundation of the earth (before space, time and matter aka before Creation).

Now the shadow/type for God's election is in the OT. He sought out individuals and by extension a nation to be set aside to be Holy. I guess using this type and shadow one could ask or rail against God on why were the Syrians not offered the same deal as Israel? Why not the Russians? The Chinese? Why not the Saxons? How about the Ukrainians? They got a raw deal?

What we do know is God chose according to His will and purpose; His will and purpose will not be thwarted; and He did so for His Name and Glory. With His choosing He was very possessive of and "jealous" against anything or anyone who got in the way of His relationship with His chosen people.

We see the same thematic election in the NT as well. But under a better covenant in the Blood of Jesus Christ. I already posted Ezekiel 36:22-32 which gives us the foreshadowing of the New Covenant, and also posted Ephesians chapters 1 and 2, Romans 9-11, and will add now the entire book of Hebrews (which discusses the New Covenant compared with the Old) showing this thematic relationship of a Sovereign God who chooses, elects, and Saves according to His will and purpose for His Name and for His Glory.

This 'thematic' is what you and some others are arguing against. Not Calvinism but the very Holy Scriptures which reveal the thematic.
Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
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renniks

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Unconditional means without reference to that person's works or anything else that he will do. God does not, IOW, choose someone because he knows how he will turn out and likes what he sees, so he writes that name in the book of life. That wouldn't be predestination. How God makes his choices has not been given to us to know.
Then how do you know it's not arbitrary? In Calvinist theology, it is in fact, arbitrary, as far as they can understand it
 
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BNR32FAN

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The don't want to and would rather die first.

Not according to Romans 11:17-23 “If they don’t continue in their unbelief will graft them back in for God is able to graft them back in again”.

God grafted then into His covenant then broke them off and if they turn from their unbelief He will graft them back in AGAIN.

“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:17-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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