Is Calvinism Just?

Kate30 · Dec 6, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Fair question. It is the attributes to God the unjust predestining millions for Heaven or Hell for no reason. Totally arbitrary. Some he hates for no reason and some he loves for no reason. Does this appeal to you, if I may ask?

I actually do not pretend to know the details of that although I have a good idea and it is a lot more complex that the theories purposed here.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe you are confusing me with someone else.

Ok with the first question we could well look at it that way to why God chooses to save some and let others perish. And why he loves others and others he does not. But for no apparent reason. Are you sure that God would not have a reason for this ? That’s what I would look into more deeply. Surely God would have a reason for doing everything. And often it is beyond mere mortals like us to comprehend. With the drawing of one to God the wind blows where it chooses i guess it is a mystery in some ways but we still know that it is God at work. Maybe I confused you with someone else. Yes I’m sure that must be the case.

Albion · Dec 6, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Frankly speaking, I doubt anyone here is qualified to answer that question although I know it won't stop many from making up answers.

I answered it in my previous reply but, more than that, it has been debated here many times and the issues, proof texts, and so on are well-known.

MDC · Dec 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I prefer your answer because we have different interpretations of the scriptures. The unelected were NEVER CAPABLE of meeting God’s expectations, correct?

It means what it says. Only one way to interpret that. The view you are advocating of what’s just and unjust is centered around the philosophy of fallen men and not scripture

Albion · Dec 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
No your just ignoring the implications of his theology. According to Calvin’s theology can the unelected influence God’s decision in any way to persuade Him elect them? No they cannot. According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity man is INCAPABLE of repentance or believing unless God elects them. So it is IMPOSSIBLE for the unelected to please God in any way shape or form as a result of a condition that is completely beyond their control.

That's correct. However, what I had taken issue with were these two claims:

1. That Calvinism teaches that God acts unjustly, and

2. That Calvinism teaches that God makes his choices arbitrarily.

Both of those are incorrect statements.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 6, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Frankly speaking, I doubt anyone here is qualified to answer that question although I know it won't stop many from making up answers. The real answers are complex as people are complex and God is even more complex. It won't fit into two sentences.

Jesus saves.
Follow Jesus.

Then EVERYTHING is taken care of. All the requirements.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 6, 2019

Albion said:
That's correct.

By all means please feel free to correct me if I have errored in any way in this assessment of Calvin’s doctrine. So far no one has disagreed with any of these implications of his theology.

[/QUOTE]
It seems it is his motives, and people who follow a man, their motives, that are mistaken and lead to sin.

straykat · Dec 6, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Your posts sound like a Calvinist and the above is no exception. That you do not understand free will is like a Calvinist. That you think it is not for this life to know is a Calvinist position. (I know by the way and it is not that difficult but one has to jettison Calvinism)

Simply acknowledging Providence is Calvinism to you...? Even when I dismiss all of the detailed tenets of Calvinism? OK then. My best guess is that you're talking to too many Calvinists at once in this thread and confusingly responded to me as if I were one of them.

I do not call your relationship with God into question. I wish you would stop accusing me of saying things I did not say. That is, frankly speaking, pretty aggressive.

I'll quote you right here:

Dorothy Mae said:
You can shout very loudly it is just but the second sentence shows that, as I said in a previous post, you show that you do not understand the god you believe in and accept that state of affairs. And I admit you never will understand that god because it is not the real one. I understand the real one and it is really marvelous to love God with your mind, that is, understand why he does what he does.

"Do not understand", "never will understand" God. You're calling essential things like a relationship with God into question. You're doing even more than that. You're saying I don't even know of the "real God", let alone understand him. This is your idea of being a Christian? Casting your fellow Christians into darkness and smugly propping yourself up as "in the know"? This is how Gnostics think. Elitists with special gnosis (knowledge) who cared little for the concerns of simple believers in Christ. Not to say you're Gnostic, but you're using their language.

renniks · Dec 6, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
What is the hope in your heart that you seem to think that by trapping us into accepting the definition of God by calvin and admiting we would hate such a being, if it were true? Why are you turning a theological discussion where you need to defend the hope that is within you into a dwelving into who we love? Please stay on the discussion and stop asking us about our hate or love of others.

Lol, I'm on your side Dorothy.

-57 · Dec 6, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Scripture does not teach predestination as calvin taught it and you believe it. YOu will not find a verse that says you are predestined for heaven no matter what you do. So you are wrong on that point.

YOu do not seem to see that you make definitive statments as you turn around and say you don't. YOu actually said you just need to trust Jesus. That is good and well for new believers. Trusting him for the future is for everyone on all levels who struggle with that, of course. BUt there is a lot more than merely trusting him cause he said to do so. There is knowing Him. There is arriving at knowing him. But it is good you are willing to learn and take joy in that. You should read the scriptures the calvinists tell you are talking of your being predestined for heaven and see if they say you are predestined for heaven. This is a good point to learn.

Eph 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 6, 2019

note: this in no way justifies Calvin's life nor his teachings nor any doctrines:

Ephesians 2:10 The Passion Translation (TPT)

10 We have become his poetry, [a] a re-created people that will fulfill the destiny he has given each of us, for we are joined to Jesus, the Anointed One. Even before we were born, God planned in advance our destiny and the good worksb] [b] we would do to fulfill it!

Footnotes:

Ephesians 2:10 The beautiful Greek word used here is translated “poem” or “poetry.” Our lives are the beautiful poetry written by God that will speak forth all that he desires in life.
Ephesians 2:10 Although implied, these good works make up our destiny. As we yield to God, our prearranged destiny comes to pass and we are rewarded for simply doing what he wanted us to accomplish.

The Passion Translation (TPT)
The Passion Translation®. Copyright © 2017 by BroadStreet Publishing® Group, LLC.
Used by permission. All rights reserved. thePassionTranslation.com

Ephesians 2:10 in all English translations

renniks · Dec 6, 2019

MDC said:
If God does all the work then faith itself is a gift from God

Why? If faith doesn't save you, why does it have to be irresistibly imposed upon you? And a gift isn't a gift if it can't be refused. God isn't in the mafia. Irresistibly causing someone to do something is not a gift, it's brainwashing, or mental rape.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 6, 2019

.... or religino ?

zoidar · Dec 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Would you say that the government could justly burn everyone to death who weren’t born On January 1 1971?

No. I don't see what that has to do with my post.

Kenny'sID · Dec 6, 2019

-57 said:
Why would someone not avvept Christ?

Please explain why you're asking me that/what it has to do with my post, and I'll try to answer?

Could you please answer the question as well?

Kenny'sID · Dec 6, 2019

-57 said:
Then you've already losy yours.

Why? You do realize Christ died so there was forgiveness available as long as we make an effort and don't live in sin, right?

Kenny'sID · Dec 6, 2019

MDC said:
Your question insinuates salvation through meritorious works.

Why do Calvinists and the like like to keep saying that? Can you please show us one person here that ever said we could gain salvation through works?

It's a common and untrue statement, just the kind of statements that are necessary to defend what is untrue.

BNR32FAN · Dec 6, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
? not sure so to speak .....

Just what did God TELL Cain about sin crouching at the door ? What did God TELL Cain about that ?

He said he must master it. According to Calvin’s theology Cain would be incapable of accomplishing this unless he was elected by God.

royal priest · Dec 6, 2019

-57 said:
False, they believe they make the right choice.

And many of them believe that men are merely misinformed and just need God to point them in the right direction.
And as for those who reject the Gospel, well they just aren't as righteous as those who accept it.

BNR32FAN · Dec 6, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Why do Calvinists and the like like to keep saying that? Can you please show us one person here that ever said we could gain salvation through works?

It's a common and untrue statement, just the kind of statements that are necessary to defend what is untrue.

It’s a despicable tactic of deception intended to discredit a person and their point of view by formulating the most obtuse interpretation possible of what the person said that is all to common here on CF. Basically it’s an act of desperation when all else has failed and they can no longer present any evidence to defend their position.

royal priest · Dec 6, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
YOu will not find a verse that says you are predestined for heaven no matter what you do.

Correct. Calvin understood that eternal life is not a matter of what you do, but Whom you know.

Is Calvinism Just?

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