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I may be willing to discuss thisFull disclosure: I am a Calvinist (in the Dutch Reformed tradition).
Are you prepared or willing to defend the Roman Catholic position on this matter?
The Catholic Church does not consider Calvinism, a theology developed by John Calvin in the 16th century, to be heretical. However, it does disagree with certain aspects of Calvinist theology, particularly the belief in double predestination, the doctrine that God predestines some individuals to eternal salvation and others to eternal damnation. The Catholic Church teaches that God desires the salvation of all humanity, and that every person has the free will to accept or reject God's grace.
If you want to have that discussion, I am open to it, ...
As I said earlier, I think the technical solution to the Calvinist-non Calvinist impasse is recognition that God being omniscient does know who will repent and accept salvation and who will refuse it, but we still have effective free will, because the deterministic nature of reality is only deterministic from the perspective of God. Thus we must have faith that Christ will save us.
... for I have been a Calvinist and now consider myself a Patristic-Orthodox non-Calvinist, ...
I want to say before disagreeing with any Calvinist doctrine my love for various Calvinist churches. ... [snip various examples]
I may be willing to discuss this
But that is not a problem.So, for you the problem with Calvinist predestination—or the idea that God determines in advance the damnation of anyone—is that "God desires the salvation of all humanity."
Sorry, I thought you said you might be willing to discuss this. Carry on as you were. Cheers.But that is not a problem.
I said I might be willing to discuss the content of the first paragraph of my post. I did not intend to mean I might be willing to discuss some fragment of it divorced from its context. It is a short paragraph. Not an essay length one. So including its context is not a hardship.Sorry, I thought you said you might be willing to discuss this. Carry on as you were. Cheers.
The Catholic Church does not consider Calvinism, a theology developed by John Calvin in the 16th century, to be heretical. However, it does disagree with certain aspects of Calvinist theology,
particularly the belief in double predestination, the doctrine that God predestines some individuals to eternal salvation and others to eternal damnation. The Catholic Church teaches that God desires the salvation of all humanity, and that every person has the free will to accept or reject God's grace.
The Catholic Church also disagree with the beliefs of the "Limited atonement" which is the belief that Jesus died only for the elect. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus died for all humanity, and that his sacrifice on the cross is sufficient for the salvation of all people.
The Catholic Church absolutely rejects double predestination (which not all Calvinists hold), but seems to only reject limited atonement in certain interpretations. So while this is a rejection of beliefs of some Calvinists, it wouldn't hit all of Calvinist theology.In summary, while the Catholic Church does not consider Calvinism to be heretical, it disagrees with certain aspects of Calvinist theology, particularly the belief in double predestination and limited atonement.
Limited atonement, also known as particular redemption or definite atonement, is the belief that the death of Jesus Christ on the cross was a specific and intentional act of redemption for the sins of a particular group of people, rather than for all humanity. The Catholic Church does not officially hold this belief.And those aspects are considered heretical. Anything that goes against a Catholic dogma is heresy by according to the Catholic Church; so if it "disagrees" with it, it means it's heretical.
Now, the term "heresy" and "heretical" tend to be used a lot less nowadays, and more applied to what would be regarded as the major heresies to emphasize their, well, majorness. Certainly, Calvinism (according to Catholicism) would be considered more correct than something like Unitarianism. Thus in the interest of terminology, actually using the term heresy may be improper due to its connotations. Still, I feel you're attempting to make an artificial distinction here between "disagrees with" and "heresy."
It is true that double predestination is condemned by the Catholic Church, as seen in the sixth session of the Council of Trent:
Canon VI. If any one shall say, that it is not in the power of man to make his ways evil, but that God worketh the works that are evil as well as those that are good, not by permission only, but properly, and of Himself in such wise that the treason of Judas be no less His own proper work than the calling of Paul; let him be anathema.
However, I should note that not all Calvinists accept double predestination. Actually, I'm not even sure if most of them do.
This is another case of something that some Calvinists believe in but some don't. Or more specifically, the interpretation of what "Limited Atonement" is. Here is an analysis of the Five Points of Calvinism (Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints) by a Calvinist-turned-Catholic:
Catholicism and TULIP
As a Catholic who is a former Calvinist, I am very interested in the relationship between various Calvinist doctrines and the Catholic faith...freethoughtforchrist.blogspot.com
They assert that, except for Perseverance of the Saints, a sound Calvinist interpretation of those points (they repeatedly differentiate between "sound" Calvinist interpretations and "unsound" Calvinist interpretations) is completely in line with Catholicism. This includes Limited Atonement. I won't quote the entire thing they wrote on this, but the quick summary quote is:
In the words of the Council of Trent (Sixth Session, Chapter III--page number removed), "though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated." This is all that Calvinists typically mean by "limited atonement." Christ died for all men, in that his atonement is sufficient to save all men, in that it provides sufficient opportunity and grace to enable all men to be saved if they will choose to avail themselves of their opportunity, and in that God intended it to provide such objective opportunity to all men and to make possible the free and sincere offer of the gospel to all men; though, in his eternal plan, he predestined that the atonement would only actually end up bringing about the eternal salvation of the elect through the application of divine grace. All this both Catholics and the sounder Calvinists grant, so there is no substantial difference in doctrine upon this point.
The Catholic Church absolutely rejects double predestination (which not all Calvinists hold), but seems to only reject limited atonement in certain interpretations. So while this is a rejection of beliefs of some Calvinists, it wouldn't hit all of Calvinist theology.
However, the big distinctive heresy--or, if you'd prefer, error--of Calvinism according to the Catholic Church is not either of those two things. As noted, double predestination isn't believed by all Calvinists, and some Calvinists have an interpretation of Limited Atonement that is in line with Catholic belief. The thing about Calvinism that the Catholic Church (and, as far as I can tell, non-Calvinists in general) reject is eternal security. Eternal security, which is a portion of the Perseverance of the Saints in the five points of Calvinism, asserts that upon becoming a Christian, no one can lose their salvation, and should anyone deconvert or fall away, it only shows they were never a true Christian to begin with. Therefore, in eternal security anyone who is a true Christian--at least a Christian as defined by those who espouse eternal security--can be assured of their salvation. This idea was rejected by the Catholic Church (Council of Trent, Session 6):
No one, moreover, so long as he exists in this mortal state, ought so far to presume concerning the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinated; as if it were true, that he who is justified, either cannot sin any more, or if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself a certain repentance; for except by a special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.
Indeed, for as much as predestination is viewed as the distinctive Calvinist belief in popular culture, it seems to me that eternal security is the distinctive belief that sets Calvinists apart from others; I've never seen a Calvinist reject it, and there are very few non-Calvinists that accept it.
Limited atonement, also known as particular redemption or definite atonement, is the belief that the death of Jesus Christ on the cross was a specific and intentional act of redemption for the sins of a particular group of people, rather than for all humanity. The Catholic Church does not officially hold this belief.
According to Catholic teaching, the atonement of Jesus Christ is unlimited, meaning that it is offered to all people, and that it is sufficient to redeem all people. The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus died for all humanity, and that his death made it possible for all people to be saved through faith in him.
Individuals have their opinions and theories. But such may not be what the Catholic Church teaches.Okay, I'll post the full excerpt from the link (Catholicism and TULIP) on the subject then, rather than just a portion so you have full context of their argument:
In part, the question depends on what one means by 'double predestination'. If one means to imply, by the term alone, that God intended the damnation of some for reason of that damnation alone, or even primarily for that reason, then I would disagree with the term. Usually, I think, those who think that 'double predestination' means that God intended the damnation primarily for that reason alone, also think he chose the damned capriciously. That also I completely disagree with. I don't like the term because of the inferences people make of it. The damnation of the reprobate was not his primary reason for creating them.However, I should note that not all Calvinists accept double predestination. Actually, I'm not even sure if most of them do.
Double predestination is the belief that God has predestined some individuals to eternal salvation and others to eternal damnation before the foundation of the world.In part, the question depends on what one means by 'double predestination'. If one means to imply, by the term alone, that God intended the damnation of some for reason of that damnation alone, or even primarily for that reason, then I would disagree with the term. Usually, I think, those who think that 'double predestination' means that God intended the damnation primarily for that reason alone, also think he chose the damned capriciously. That also I completely disagree with. I don't like the term because of the inferences people make of it. The damnation of the reprobate was not his primary reason for creating them.
One of the philosophical axioms I consider inherent in Calvinism is not so much the negative: That God does nothing capriciously, (or "for no reason", as some haters of Calvinism say it claims), though it is true that God does nothing capriciously; but to the positive: That having caused all things, logically, then, God intended all things.
Double predestination is the belief that God has predestined some individuals to eternal salvation and others to eternal damnation before the foundation of the world.
Scripture passages that some argue contradict this belief include:
Additionally, passages such as Matthew 22:14, where Jesus says "For many are called, but few are chosen." This is interpreted to mean that God calls all people to salvation, but not all accept it.
- John 3:16, which states that "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." This passage implies that salvation is available to all who believe in Jesus.
- 2 Peter 3:9, which states that "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." This passage implies that God desires for all people to be saved.
- Romans 2:4, which states that "Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?" This passage implies that God's kindness is extended to all people, not just a select few.
It's worth noting that the Bible doesn't give a clear cut answer about predestination and it's open for interpretation. Also, the Bible does not provide a complete systematic theology on the subject of predestination. However, the passages above are some that are often cited as evidence that double predestination is not taught in the Bible.
The Catholic Church teaches that God predestines some individuals to eternal salvation, but not in a way that predestines others to eternal damnation. The Church teaches that God desires all people to be saved and that salvation is available to all through faith in Jesus Christ.But is not predestining some, and not all, to salvation not thereby also predestining all others to damnation, since there are only two possible destines?
I think Calvinism is very easy to refute, by discovering who 'whom he did foreknow' of Romans 8:29 are?since you're not john calvin his situation is irrelevant to the discussion.
The Catholic Church teaches that God predestines some individuals to eternal salvation, but not in a way that predestines others to eternal damnation. The Church teaches that God desires all people to be saved and that salvation is available to all through faith in Jesus Christ.
Scripture passages that support this belief include:
It's also important to note that predestination is not the only factor in salvation, Free will also plays a role, as stated in Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live."
- 2 Peter 3:9, which states that "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." This passage implies that God desires for all people to be saved.
- 1 Timothy 2:4, which states that "God our Saviour, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." This passage confirms that God desires all people to be saved.
- Matthew 22:14, which states that "For many are called, but few are chosen." This passage implies that God calls all people to salvation, but not all accept it.
- Romans 8:29-30 which states: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." This passage implies that God predestines some to salvation, but those predestined are also called, justified and glorified through faith in Jesus Christ.
In summary, the Catholic Church teaches that God predestines some individuals to eternal salvation, but not in a way that predestines others to eternal damnation. Rather, salvation is available to all through faith in Jesus Christ, and God desires all people to be saved.
I think Calvinism is very easy to refute, by discovering who 'whom he did foreknow' of Romans 8:29 are?
But I start with one question of Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring .
In whom? when? and how did men exist then and there? I am informed by scholars that the 'poets' were before Jesus' time
I think God pre-destinates everyone to be saved, the default is saved, man has to reject Christ not to be. I like your use of the 1 Tim 2:4 but think that the 'many' of Matt 22:14 does not necessarily mean all or He would have said all?The Catholic Church teaches that God predestines some individuals to eternal salvation, but not in a way that predestines others to eternal damnation. The Church teaches that God desires all people to be saved and that salvation is available to all through faith in Jesus Christ.
Scripture passages that support this belief include:
It's also important to note that predestination is not the only factor in salvation, Free will also plays a role, as stated in Deuteronomy 30:19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live."
- 2 Peter 3:9, which states that "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." This passage implies that God desires for all people to be saved.
- 1 Timothy 2:4, which states that "God our Saviour, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." This passage confirms that God desires all people to be saved.
- Matthew 22:14, which states that "For many are called, but few are chosen." This passage implies that God calls all people to salvation, but not all accept it.
- Romans 8:29-30 which states: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." This passage implies that God predestines some to salvation, but those predestined are also called, justified and glorified through faith in Jesus Christ.
In summary, the Catholic Church teaches that God predestines some individuals to eternal salvation, but not in a way that predestines others to eternal damnation. Rather, salvation is available to all through faith in Jesus Christ, and God desires all people to be saved.
My reading of the text is it specifically says 'have our being' and this does not sound like a prophetic projection to me but more an actual existence?They are those whom, before the foundations of the world, God (fore)knew (in the sense of intimacy) before he created them, and decreed them to salvation.
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