Is belief that a god exists a choice?

[Albion]

you and I can say that we, and atheists, "choose" our faith, but we have to remember too, from a theological perspective, that God/Christ somehow does the choosing of us as well.

That's basically why I hesitated to answer the poll. We all DO make a choice when it comes to believing in "a god." That is to say, in some sort of god.

But to know the true God, no, we cannot turn to him using only our own resources. He must choose us--as you said.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The next step would be to challenge your own axioms, and ask God to give you more understanding of His revelation to the world.

I tried hard to come up with some axioms I live by, but I drew a bit of a blank. I read your reply a few hours ago now...I just couldn't come up with any. Truisms are circumstantial at best...the really good ones just appear true all the time.

Try to understand it from my point of view here...you're telling me that I should ask god for understanding, after I claim that I've never really encountered a concept of god that's understandable. I would be satisfied with a coherent, reasonable, basic description of what god is and how "we" know this. I'm not looking for a 5000 page essay detailing everything about god's existence....just something logical and coherent. I honestly don't understand how one comes to the belief that a being exists that they can't provide this for...it makes no sense to me.

Once I have that I can move forward with evidence and testimony and whatever else people are willing to present... I'm willing to consider any of it. However, I could show you right now a post on another thread in this subsection that claims "god is love". That makes no sense whatsoever.... it's as if the poster believes there is some all-knowing, ever-present, all-powerful sentient emotion that created the universe.... and no one even tried to correct him. That post is like a tiny window into a giant world of misunderstanding.

 

[Davian]

Davian
[FONT=&quot]Ah! I see that you’ve finally put your Night-Vision goggles on.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Apt” it may be from your point of view; but conclusively “cogent” it is not.[/FONT]

My point of view is what I have to work with.

[FONT=&quot]I do not believe that evidence can be “strained” by human evaluation without first identifying its nature and the method by which it will be “strained” and “evaluated.” No method, no conclusions; attempt method, attempt conclusions. It’s that simple.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Moreover, if I think that the Bible was never meant to represent any kind of history writing that we today would be familiar with, or that we require for consideration, then I might also think that God wants us to play the game (or His Rorschach Test) on His terms rather than ours. If it turns out that I cannot play the game on God’s terms, then I can, for the most part, not really be confident that I’ve in fact begun to play God’s game. (Yes, I mean this metaphorically.)

[/FONT]
It would seem that this requires the presupposition that gods - God - exists. I do not accept that presupposition gods are possible. I would need a robust, working definition to start with.

[FONT=&quot]Again, as from my previous statements, this is not a diversion tactic, but an insistance that we cannot put the cart before the horse. But, some people like to work within the contexts of futility, I guess.

[/FONT]
How is that working for you so far?

[FONT=&quot]Would you like some water? I’m all out of Merlot. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ok. Let us begin. Choose some literature on the “nature of evidence” that you use as a contextual reference for your epistemological evaluations, and I’ll choose mine, we’ll read, compare notes, and have our own discussion. Here’s mine: Kelly, Thomas (2008). Evidence: Fundamental concepts and the phenomenal conception. Philosophy Compass 3(5), pp. 933-955. Here’s a link, if you like.

[/FONT]
I am just a n00b at this, so I don't have anyhting to offer, but I did read your document down to the point where it talks of "God" with no introduction, explanation, or definition. Is this the Christian God? Do you have anything that doesn't make these presuppositions up front?

[FONT=&quot]I’m implying that the conceptual “evidence” for God is of another caliber, whether provable or not, than that attached to topics such as fairies, elves, etc.

[/FONT]
As a believer in gods, of course you would. However, to claim that the 'conceptual “evidence” for God is of another caliber' without substantiating said claim would be fallacious.

[FONT=&quot]Nor do I think it qualifies as historical evidence in the most modern and strictest of terms. In fact, I would qualify that the intent of biblical writing was not to record some ‘history’ for posterity, but to (to put it simply) place in writing a set of spiritually revealed lessons by which we might know how to interact with God…as we move through history and into the future. Thus, it’s purpose was never to give us a simple historical, political, or scientific written representation of our world, but rather a cognitive doorway by which to reflect upon the God and His Revelation to us. (And if someone doesn’t think my theory fits with the Traditional view of Christianity, …… then they’re welcome to attempt to 'bust a move'!)

[/font]
Too many presuppositions there.

[FONT=&quot]Oh, about 700 other books, journal articles, life experience, and whatnot.

[/FONT]
To be clear, did your belief in God come to you prior to this information, or after?

[FONT=&quot]That’s good to hear. Then I can assume you won’t just dismiss things I have to say out of hand, even when you're inclined to disagree. I know that I won't simply dismiss you out of hand. That would be disrespectful...

[/FONT]You are comparing apples to orange crates here. I will respect you as a person, as a fellow member of this site, but in the 'arena of ideas' the ideas stand (or fall) on their own merit.

 

[juvenissun]

That's basically why I hesitated to answer the poll. We all DO make a choice when it comes to believing in "a god." That is to say, in some sort of god.

But to know the true God, no, we cannot turn to him using only our own resources. He must choose us--as you said.

The OP is given by an atheist. So, I think we should answer him accordingly. But, I think you are right. It won't hurt more by giving him the true answer.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ana the Ist

I tried hard to come up with some axioms I live by, but I drew a bit of a blank. I read your reply a few hours ago now...I just couldn't come up with any. Truisms are circumstantial at best...the really good ones just appear true all the time.

Thank you for your honesty here, and I seriously mean that, without sarcasm. The fact that you drew "a bit of a blank" already indicates an unconscious axiom for you in this case, "That it is difficult for people to ascertain their axioms." And there you go, challenge that! Rene Descartes did, whether for right or wrong. St. Paul did too, but he realized that it can only get you just so far.

And yes, I agree that Axioms can be circumstantial, but not all of them. And the ones that seem to be true all the time, you might want to ask the Anti-realist philosophers about and then compare what they say with their Realist counterparts.

Try to understand it from my point of view here...you're telling me that I should ask god for understanding, after I claim that I've never really encountered a concept of god that's understandable. I would be satisfied with a coherent, reasonable, basic description of what god is and how "we" know this. I'm not looking for a 5000 page essay detailing everything about god's existence....just something logical and coherent. I honestly don't understand how one comes to the belief that a being exists that they can't provide this for...it makes no sense to me.

Yes. I actually can understand from you point of view--I've been there a few times myself. Yes, ask God for understanding, especially since dealing with God does require a untold pages of essay.

Again, your axioms are showing. You want something that is logical and coherent, which infers a set of axioms about the nature of humanity, human thought, and the universe. Challenge those! The goal being not to disprove them, but to refine your understanding of them.

Once I have that I can move forward with evidence and testimony and whatever else people are willing to present... I'm willing to consider any of it. However, I could show you right now a post on another thread in this subsection that claims "god is love". That makes no sense whatsoever.... it's as if the poster believes there is some all-knowing, ever-present, all-powerful sentient emotion that created the universe.... and no one even tried to correct him. That post is like a tiny window into a giant world of misunderstanding.

Yes, it very well could be a post representing one Christian's erroneous, or at least incoherent, view, or one that simply doesn't demonstrate awareness of its own partial understanding. Things things come in degrees.

Peace

Peace

 

[Ken-1122]

Is Santa less believable than the god and YEC concepts etc that get bantered about on this site?

Yes. Being an ex-Christian myself; I can understand the effects indoctrination from childhood to adult can have on someone; but I don't understand how a simple conversation from a man pretending to be Santa in a shopping mall can convince an adult he is the real thing.

I have nothing to offer in my defence other than, look at that picture. Is that not Santa?

The point was, it was not a "choice" as I understand it.

So getting back to the subject at hand, you say believing is not a choice? If so then we agree.

Ken

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My point of view is what I have to work with.
[/font]
It would seem that this requires the presupposition that gods - God - exists. I do not accept that presupposition gods are possible. I would need a robust, working definition to start with.
[/font]
How is that working for you so far?
[/font]
I am just a n00b at this, so I don't have anyhting to offer, but I did read your document down to the point where it talks of "God" with no introduction, explanation, or definition. Is this the Christian God? Do you have anything that doesn't make these presuppositions up front?
[/font]
As a believer in gods, of course you would. However, to claim that the 'conceptual “evidence” for God is of another caliber' without substantiating said claim would be fallacious.
[/font]
Too many presuppositions there.
[/font]
To be clear, did your belief in God come to you prior to this information, or after?
[/font]You are comparing apples to orange crates here. I will respect you as a person, as a fellow member of this site, but in the 'arena of ideas' the ideas stand (or fall) on their own merit.

[Alright. I'm out of ammo for the moment...so I'm taking a vacation from all of this for a while. Have a great holiday.]

 

[Archaeopteryx]

...and some of us became Christians by reading the Bible.

In fact, some of us even still choose Christianity after earning a B.A. in Philosophy, an academic direction that typically throws such students the 'other' way.

Yes, some.

The PhilPapers Surveys

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes, some.

The PhilPapers Surveys

Yes, some.
Accept or lean toward: atheism 678 / 931 (72.8%)
-----The PhilPapers Surveys


[Now, I'm on holiday. Have a great one too!]

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Thousands of Christians tell you: Believe. Read the Bible.
That is how could you begin.

You CHOOSE not to begin.

Why do you think that merely reading the Bible will be enough to encourage belief in its claims? Will reading the Quran be enough to make you a Muslim? Will reading the Bhagavad Gita be enough to make you a Hindu? What of those who have read one or all of these texts and who still remain atheists? What of those who did read the Bible as Christians, but who no longer believe in the doctrines of Christianity?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes, some.
Accept or lean toward: atheism 678 / 931 (72.8%)
-----The PhilPapers Surveys


[Now, I'm on holiday. Have a great one too!]

I'm one of those who did a BA in philosophy who went the 'other' way.

Have a good holiday. Unfortunately, it looks like I'll still be working throughout most of December/January. But I might have a holiday from CF. As much as I enjoy the lively conversations on here, they do take up a fair amount of time. Recent changes in my circumstances, particularly surrounding health, have prompted me to reconsider my priorities.

 

[Davian]

[Alright. I'm out of ammo for the moment...so I'm taking a vacation from all of this for a while. Have a great holiday.]

You must have been given blanks.

 

[Davian]

Yes.

Never having been there myself, I will take your word for it.

Being an ex-Christian myself; I can understand the effects indoctrination from childhood to adult can have on someone; but I don't understand how a simple conversation from a man pretending to be Santa in a shopping mall can convince an adult he is the real thing.

The brain works in mysterious ways.

So getting back to the subject at hand, you say believing is not a choice? If so then we agree.

Ken

We agree.

 

[lynx1]

Yes, it is a choice because the rule of free wil

 

[ranunculus]

Surely people who say that belief in God is a choice don't believe all beliefs are choices right? Just the belief in God?

Beliefs can't be choices. At least for me they can't.

I can't choose to believe that arsenic isn't poisonous and proceed to drink a bottle of rat poison.
I can't choose to believe I'm a fish and or that I can fly. People who can either die a quick death or are locked up in an asylum. (Not that such people exist.)

So if you can't choose to believe in things that you think are unbelievable, then an atheist can't choose to believe in God.

 

[KCfromNC]

I would not choose to believe this

Not even to prove to everyone questioning the idea that belief in your god is a choice they can freely make?

 

[dysert]

Not even to prove to everyone questioning the idea that belief in your god is a choice they can freely make?

Let me just say that I think belief in God is a choice that can be freely made. I would be a poor example in trying to prove this.

 

[Albion]

The OP is given by an atheist. So, I think we should answer him accordingly. But, I think you are right. It won't hurt more by giving him the true answer.

I appreciate your words, juvenissun. I should have explained better that, when I entered into the thread, a lot had already been said, so I confined myself to dealing with the poll choices and why I personally felt "stuck" for an answer to the poll.

It does, however, address a point that I think is important--choosing a god, any god, may be as natural and free as taking a stand on whether or not it will be a hard winter. It's natural to contemplate and anyone's guess is as good as the next person's. But we Christians aren't especially concerned about having the free will to choose the wrong answer, and knowing the true God is not something all men do as automatically as choosing your favorite color.

 

[TheImmortalJellyfish]

Can you choose to believe that 100,000 fire breathing dragons roam the plains of eastern Russia?

PREPOSTEROUS!! Now, 90,000 on the other hand....

 

[PsychoSarah]

Yes, it is a choice because the rule of free wil

Then make yourself believe the sky is green.