Is belief in the creation story a salvation issue?

[Archivist]

Consider this, no one honestly thinks any [Christian] should agree with the nazis.

And how is believing that God used evolution to create everything agreeing with the Nazis?

 

[BobRyan]

This is like talking to a broken record. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over.

Because your solution of "ignore every detail in the post and maybe those details will go away" simply does not work.

As I have said numerous times, I believe that God created everything.

All T.E.s will say that in a nebulous way - but it is the details you ignore in the post - I point to the Bible details and you simply "ignore them all" and "circle back" to the vague generalized T.E. position.

The whole point of posting those "details" was to expose the problem in your "solution".

You then solve it by "ignoring everything some more".

How is that supposed to be compelling??

Posting numerous Biblical verses saying that He created everything doesn't disagree with my belief.

Which is why I don't simply post texts that say "God created".

Rather I point to the "details" that the Bible gives - that you appear to "need" to avoid.

Why not discuss the points - rather than ignoring everything posted??

Pretending not to see the point - while also ignoring the details - is not the brilliant answer you seem to have at first imagined to yourself.

 

[BobRyan]

And how is believing that God used evolution to create everything agreeing with the Nazis?

Nazis argued that they are more evolved and that cleansing the human race to evolve to the point of only tolerating the "master race" was simple evolution

 

[BobRyan]

but those of us who believed that God used evolution to create the world aren't attempting to impose anything on others.

Those of us who claim you can only leap off that cliff by ignoring the details in the text - are affirmed - each time you ignore these details...

you are making my case for me - by such determination to avoid the actual details.

============================

I don't have any point to prove.

indeed.

by contrast the Bible answers the question beyond all doubt -- for those that believe the Bible --

But the topic of thsi thread is specifically whether belief in the Genesis creation account is a salvation issue. No one has yet convinced me that it is.

Because your "strategy" has been to 'ignore every detail in the posts' and then circle back to "I still don't see anything".

==============================================

By contrast we had this irrefutable post --

-

In "theory" this thread is about what the Bible says regarding the significance of the Bible account of creation and how it pertains to Gospel - salvation.

Which got this response.

====================================

As we saw here that -- the Word of God places the creation fact - as the basis for true worship.

John is informed by Genesis 1, and accepts the Bible rather than rejecting it...

John knows his readers are informed by it... assumes they accept it.

Notice that John 1 is not blind faith evolutionism - just as Genesis 1 is not.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Genes 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

And "yes" John knew of Ex 20:11 so also did his readers

Rev 14:6-7
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Revelation 4:
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”



John 1
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Genes 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

=============================================
T.E's have found a "tiny island" for themselves and Bible believing Christians are not going there with them - neither are the atheists and agnostics apparently. (I don't see many Hindus or Buddhists arguing that the Bible is true - except it is bent to preach darwinism)
===================================================

And apparently had no answer for this post than to ignore every detail listed as if blind or could not see for some other reason.

Which is about what we would have expected since these are Bible texts.

 

[BobRyan]

hint - those irrefutable details are way beyond "God did something -- insert evolutionism here"

Irrefutable details do not 'vanish' each time you fail to refute them.

 

[Speedwell]

T.E's have found a "tiny island" for themselves and Bible believing Christians are not going there with them - neither are the atheists and agnostics apparently.

So what exactly is this "tiny island" you apparently have marooned me on with Dr. Barr?

 

[BobRyan]

So what exactly is this "tiny island" you apparently have marooned me on with Dr. Barr?

Bar is a believer in evolutionism - but is not a T.E. as far as I know -- so you might be there by yourself if that is your only other choice.

 

[Speedwell]

Bar is a believer in evolutionism - but is not a T.E. as far as I know -- so you might be there by yourself if that is your only other choice.

What's the difference? Evidently you have some notion of what theistic evolution entails which excludes Dr. Barr. He certainly was not a "Bible-believing" Christian. Although an ordained clergyman of the Church of Scotland he was outspoken in his opposition to literal inerrancy. Why does that not make him a theistic evolutionist?

 

[RedPonyDriver]

The YEC stance is a bit ridiculous considering what we know. The twisting of logic to make the YEC position work is more work than I think is necessary. It also continues the stereotype of Christians being anti-intellectual.

I have yet to see where it has been adequately proved that it is a salvational issue so I see no need to believe something that I find utterly ridiculous.

 

[BobRyan]

So what exactly is this "tiny island" you apparently have marooned me on with Dr. Barr?

Bar is a believer in evolutionism - but is not a T.E. as far as I know -- so you might be there by yourself if that is your only other choice.

What's the difference?

Good point - both reject the Bible -- Barr's rejection of it is much closer to atheism's claims - since like athiests he has no need to try and merge/bend/pretend the Bible is trying to make a statement compatible with atheist evolutionism.

Yours might be as well - so in that case neither of you would fit on the standard tiny-island of T.E.'s who expend every effort to try and get the Bible to say something compatible with blind-faith atheist evolutionism - instead of just admitting that the Bible clearly does no such thing.

 

[BobRyan]

The YEC stance is a bit ridiculous considering what we know. The twisting of logic to make the YEC position work is more work than I think is necessary. It also continues the stereotype of Christians being anti-intellectual.

I have yet to see where it has been adequately proved that it is a salvational issue so I see no need to believe something that I find utterly ridiculous.

Chasing your tail and ignoring the details presented to the contrary - might be good for isolationist amusement - but if you choose instead to address the points raised -- well that is another matter altogether.

So far you address none of these points in your monologue.

=======================================================

In "theory" this thread is about what the Bible says regarding the significance of the Bible account of creation and how it pertains to Gospel - salvation.

Which got this response.

====================================

As we saw here that -- the Word of God places the creation fact - as the basis for true worship.

John is informed by Genesis 1, and accepts the Bible rather than rejecting it...

John knows his readers are informed by it... assumes they accept it.

Notice that John 1 is not blind faith evolutionism - just as Genesis 1 is not.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Genes 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

And "yes" John knew of Ex 20:11 so also did his readers

Rev 14:6-7
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Revelation 4:
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”



John 1
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Genes 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

=============================================
T.E's have found a "tiny island" for themselves and Bible believing Christians are not going there with them - neither are the atheists and agnostics apparently. (I don't see many Hindus or Buddhists arguing that the Bible is true - except it is bent to preach darwinism)
===================================================

And apparently had no answer for this post than to ignore every detail listed as if blind or could not see for some other reason.

Which is about what we would have expected since these are Bible texts.

 

[Indent]

Evolution is a scientific fact.

What's there to discuss?

There's that Biblical inerrancy thing which is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, it's just a theory, that people keep pushing. It's wrong, but Christians ignoring the fact of evolution isn't a salvation issue.


P.s. I'm borrowing language from creationists.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

That says that God made everything...not that there was a literal 6 day creation.

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

An explanation of why Israel had their sabbath on the 7th day, based on the creation myth. Again, does not verify the account as fact.

Ya know...nevermind. I know that even if I go through and refute every point you're going to argue with me. So...I'm choosing to not attend this argument. My brain is mush after a day of planning lessons for my students for this week.

You believe as you choose and give me the opportunity to do the same. Your strident demand that this is a salvational issue has been repeatedly refuted all over this forum and other places. Google is your friend...use it.

 

[Speedwell]

Bar is a believer in evolutionism - but is not a T.E. as far as I know -- so you might be there by yourself if that is your only other choice.



Good point - both reject the Bible -- Barr's rejection of it is much closer to atheism's claims - since like athiests he has no need to try and merge/bend/pretend the Bible is trying to make a statement compatible with atheist evolutionism.

Yours might be as well - so in that case neither of you would fit on the standard tiny-island of T.E.'s who expend every effort to try and get the Bible to say something compatible with blind-faith atheist evolutionism - instead of just admitting that the Bible clearly does no such thing.

Do you really think there are very many who take that position? I'm not saying otherwise, I just don't know anybody who does. Maybe a "tiny island" is big enough for them.

 

[Archivist]

Nazis argued that they are more evolved and that cleansing the human race to evolve to the point of only tolerating the "master race" was simple evolution

You need to learn your history. The Nazis rejected human evolution from animals. They rejected the common origin of the different human races, claiming that Aryans and Jews could not have shared a common ancestor. In fact Nazi guidelines for public libraries specifically banned "writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism."

 

[Archivist]

Those of us who claim you can only leap off that cliff by ignoring the details in the text - are affirmed - each time you ignore these details...

you are making my case for me - by such determination to avoid the actual details.

============================



indeed.

by contrast the Bible answers the question beyond all doubt -- for those that believe the Bible --



Because your "strategy" has been to 'ignore every detail in the posts' and then circle back to "I still don't see anything".

==============================================

By contrast we had this irrefutable post --

-

In "theory" this thread is about what the Bible says regarding the significance of the Bible account of creation and how it pertains to Gospel - salvation.

Which got this response.

====================================

As we saw here that -- the Word of God places the creation fact - as the basis for true worship.

John is informed by Genesis 1, and accepts the Bible rather than rejecting it...

John knows his readers are informed by it... assumes they accept it.

Notice that John 1 is not blind faith evolutionism - just as Genesis 1 is not.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Genes 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

And "yes" John knew of Ex 20:11 so also did his readers

Rev 14:6-7
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Revelation 4:
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”



John 1
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

No evolutionist text on origins will have that text as its affirmative or summary. And we all know it.

Genes 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

=============================================
T.E's have found a "tiny island" for themselves and Bible believing Christians are not going there with them - neither are the atheists and agnostics apparently. (I don't see many Hindus or Buddhists arguing that the Bible is true - except it is bent to preach darwinism)
===================================================

And apparently had no answer for this post than to ignore every detail listed as if blind or could not see for some other reason.

Which is about what we would have expected since these are Bible texts.

Once again, posting the same quotations over and over does not help your argument.

Agai, which one of the verses your posted specifically says that belief in the Genesis salvation story is a salvation issue?

 

[BobRyan]

Once again, posting the same quotations over and over does not help your argument.

Once again ignoring the same details over and over again and then claiming you cant see details - is not helping your argument.

Why not respond to the details instead of ignoring them.

Agai, which one of the verses your posted specifically says that belief in the Genesis salvation story is a salvation issue?

Are you asking this because you don't think the Gospel has anything to do with salvation after reading those details carefully?

If so - how did you come to that conclusion?

 

[BobRyan]

You need to learn your history. The Nazis rejected human evolution from animals. They rejected the common origin of the different human races, claiming that Aryans and Jews could not have shared a common ancestor. In fact Nazi guidelines for public libraries specifically banned "writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism."

"Expunging of the Judeo-Christian doctrine of the divine origin of humans from mainline German (liberal) theology and its schools, and replacing it with Darwinism, openly contributed to the acceptance of Social Darwinism that culminated in the tragedy of the holocaust.1 Darwin’s theory, as modified by Haeckel,2,3,4,5,6 Chamberlain7 and others, clearly contributed to the death of over nine million people in concentration camps, and about 40 million other humans in a war that cost about six trillion dollars. Furthermore, the primary reason that Nazism reached to the extent of the holocaust was the widespread acceptance of Social Darwinism by the scientific and academic community.1,8,9,10"

 

[BobRyan]

Do you really think there are very many who take that position? I'm not saying otherwise, I just don't know anybody who does. Maybe a "tiny island" is big enough for them.

hint - each time one points out that Genesis is in direct conflict with blind faith evolutionism - we have a bevy if T.E.'s rising p on this board claiming that Creationists are just reading Genesis wrong and that is why it appears to them that the genesis account is not compatible with Darwinism.

Each time we point that even Darwin admitted to this "detail" and so also do former Christians like Dawkins, Provine, P.Z. Meyers -- the answer the T.E.'s give is of the form "well then those people stink - they did not know anything about what the Bible says either just like bible believing Christians who also see the Bible contradicting evolutionism" and so all are tossed into the same large land-mass by the T.E.'s on their tiny island of self-conflicted story telling.

 

[BobRyan]

Evolution is a scientific fact.

What's there to discuss?

There's that Biblical inerrancy thing which is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, it's just a theory, that people keep pushing. It's wrong, but Christians ignoring the fact of evolution isn't a salvation issue.


P.s. I'm borrowing language from creationists.

Is this the part where you read the post showing the link with the Gospel - ???