Havoc said:
And we have just as much chance of being right about that as you.
Again, this sidesteps the essential element that truth is imparted rather than chosen. The source of truth is higher than man. And this statement makes two false assumptions:
1. The source of truth and the seeker of the truth, can be the same being. Obviously this cannot be so.
2. That truth, once it is discovered, is not self-evident even though it has been found. In reality, you can not have found something you haven't found. If you haven't found the truth, it's because...it isn't the truth that you *have* found.
Christianity is not chosen? Well there goes half the apologetics arguements of Christians. So you are forced into Christianity then?
Very good question, and I'm glad you asked. Christianity is an acknowledgement of what is true. You don't pick it because it can do something for you, but because it is true. But here is the truth on this:
1 Peter 2:9:
2:9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar F6 people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Ephesians 1:4
1:4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2 Thessalonians 2:13
2:13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
THis is only the tip of the ice berg. THis shows that it is imparted. We *respond* to God's call. God is very kindly and dignified; he never operates without the cooperation of those He calls. But when we see the truth which is revealed only by God through His Holy Spirit and His servants then we know what the truth is. Then we respnd to it as such. Everyone who comes into the truth sees the trinkets of this world for the worthless junk it truly is.
Seriously. You believe Christianity is imparted and so you chose it. Every religion believes the truths of that religion are imparted, and every religion is a chosen religion. This includes both mine and yours. You cannot show that your religion is imparted by anything more than a book.
See, that's the thing. We don't select. We don't say, well this belief offers this, and this belief offers that..Beliefs are chosen, yes. But truth is truth. It is revealed and responded to, because it is outside of the self. People choose out of the self-things they want. Things that suit *them*. THings they want to *believe.* But Christianity isn't something people sift through and then decide it works for them, although there are some that try. But Jesus's blood is no cheap sacrifice, and one of two things happens: either the person responds to the truth because God calls them, and they forsake their own purposes, or they fall away, proving they were never truly God's people afterall.
Another thing, and I will try to say this as delicately as I can, but personal understanding is no measure of truth. What I mean by that is, just because it is not *received* does not make it any less true. Reasonable is not what is revealed. If that were the case, the universe wouldn't exist. Only our galaxy or what we could determine. Also, the universe would expand with technology.
Take the principle of object permanence, for example. THis is when we discover that the things we cannot see are still in existence. The same is true of spiritual things. Usually, though, and I will try to say this as well as I can, is that people don't reject Christianity because it isn't true. They refuse it because it requires them to live for Someone outside of themselves and requires forsaking of personal desires. People want to create their own reality. Become gods as it were, determining truth according to their wills. But this is a deception. A sweet deception, sure, but a deception nevertheless. The truth is, we have no control over it whatsoever. We don't have the power to determine truth. It is what it is. The question is, do we value truth above all else, or do we value what we want more than we value truth?
The difficulty is, the truth will eventually be made plain to everyone. But then it is too late to change course. Anyone who is loyal to God will be concerned for the safety of the souls of others.
Well some of the people are offensive, especially when thay keep basing arguements on a "truth" they cannot show exists. I've already dealt with the "imparted, not chosen" fallacy.
By the way, calling something a fallacy doesn't make it one; it only lessens the weight of that word to use it inappropriately.
But God makes that decision. THis decision is never in our hands, as much as I realize many would like it to be. Here is what God says about it:
Luke 8:9-10
8:9And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?
8:10And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
There's no getting around it. God only gives this truth to those who seek Him. Every pang to seek God is from God, but He allows people to reject it, too. But every earnest effort is rewarded be GOd. Does this negate His sovereignty? No, because He uses natural means to reveal His will. But every inkling to seek God, if it is not responded to, has the opposite effect: it hardens the heart. If it is reponded to, it makes the truth more visible, and God removes some of the cloud and distortion. Otherwise, it quenches the Holy Spirit and hardens the heart.
So God's sovereignty is no reason to ignore the call to salvation, and it should never be rejected.
If we cannot show that our Gods are the absolute truth then we have chosen them. You have chosen yours, I have chosen mine. If you ever come up with anything other than speculation to show the existence of your God you might have a leg to stand on.
Well it isn't the lack of proof that meakes a religion chosen. It is how the person arrives at their beliefs. If it isn't truth, it is because something became more important than the truth. TO put it clearly, most people reject Christianity because they want to run their own lives and they like to do things they would have to forsake. And those things are more important to them than the truth, but those things don't last. Only truth lasts forever. So the world is a very short-lived and expensive thing to have. And nothing that is temporal ever satisfies anyway.
Christianity was new at one time about 2000 years ago. By your arguement it was invalid at that time.
Actually it began when God did, which means it always existed. THe first humans were conscious of and had this relationship with GOd. Christianity is a separate word to signify the acknowledgement of the Messiah. But that doesn't mean we're now working with a different God. No, CHristianity has always been. It's just that the Messiah hadn't arrived yet.
Fine.. now show conclusively that it was your God's purpose and not the purpose of the myriad of other Gods and Goddesses who have just as verifiable a claim to us.
Verifiable is not truth. Because not all that is can be verified, and that which seems verifiable can be shrouded in distortion and delusion. Take a look in a fun house mirror. It isn't a true representation of yourself, even though it is a reflection. It reflects that which isn't true, and you see that which isn't true. But how do you know this? Going from mirror to mirror, your reflection changes. How do you know they're wrong? You asked a very good question, btw.
Correction: You believe you go to God for this authority. You judge the morality of other religions by their conformity to your beliefs.
Not by my beliefs, but imparted truth. It's a really important distinction to make, and I understand how it can be very difficult to think outide this realm of personal choice. In fact, it is impossible until the Holy Spirit indwells you. It completely changes the person's way of thinking, the whole mindset.
Whether any religion is true or not is not a proveable proposition, at least not yet, and for you to use your unproven and unverifiable religion as a yardstick for proof is ingenuine at best. What is acceptable to God depends on which God exists, if any.
Yes!!! Exactly! It can *never* be proven by man. And that is God's intent. This is a brilliant conclusion that most people never understand their whole lives through, and I'm very impressed to hear you say this. However, unverifiable and false are not the same thing. Surely you see this as well. But you cannot tell someone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit that they have exactly the same information as someone who isn't. You may not see it, and maybe you're someone who needs to see to believe. But it doesn;'t change reality. Because then all of reality would exist by personal preference. And we all know we're not that powerful.
Yes just a thought and not the fact it's purported to be.
You say this without knowledge, but I understand why you say it, even if it isn't accurate.
Blessings to you.