Is being Wiccan moral?

Blissman said:

There is nothing that I am aware of where cats or for that matter any beast is judged.

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Merry Meet!

Wiccans do not believe in the Christian Judgement. We simply state that all of creation is equal in that it contains a spark of the divine. Everything is part of a cycle of life, death, and being reborn.

Brightest Blessings,
Krysia

Blissman said:

I do not consider 'spells' to be real nor possible because should you cast (induce?) a spell to cure AIDS or bring sight to the blind, it will not work. Could you use a spell, or majick, assuming that you used majick to cure AIDS? Bring sight to the Blind? Unless you were able to do that, then majick, and spells do not and can not work. In my version of reality, both spells and majick do not exist
other than a self belief that a spell or some magick had changed anything. For what reason do you believe that things to which you attribute as having been caused by a spell or majick would not have happened without your attempt(s) to intervene?

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Could not the same be said about prayers and intercessions held in a Christian church? Being raised Catholic, I remember many times when we prayed for various things (i.e. please let so and so get better, please help our troops in...). These prayers were done individually, or through general intercessions during mass, or through the dedication of a mass to someone, or by even lighting candles. Wiccans perform spells essentially along the same threads. We might hold a ritual, or simply light a candle. In either case, we are asking the Divine to aid us in our needs. To state that spells and magick do not exist and to employ them is fruitless, is to state that the Christian counterparts are fruitless. As an aside, many of the Christian rituals, accoutrements of Mass, Holidays and such have pagan roots...but that is another discussion

Brightest Blessings,
Krysia

I'd just like to say, Wicca is not immoral or evil - i am Wiccan, many of my kind do not use spells which call for the blood of others - we wont even do spells which ask for our own blood. (blood belongs on the inside so there it stays.) As has already been pointed out we have a strict set of rules to follow in the Rede and harming others is against the three fold law. Love spells are also considered to be immoral by most wiccans as love is meant to be given purely and freely. The only reasons such spells are in existance uis because of the great age Wicca is - it spreads its roots back further than the ancient egyptians although reliable documented evidence only exists from the early 1900's. In some social cultures love spells are considered acceptable and this is why they have evolved within wicca, a true Wiccan would rather know that the love someone holds for him/her came freely for who they are and not because they've lit a few candles and muttered a few rhymes.
I accept that Christians have trouble comprehending Wicca - which must be confusing, however I think that if you look closely you'll see there are a few similarities between the two faiths.
I personally am only a learner - in the Wiccan world my L plates are very securely attatched, however as a convert to Wicca from christianity i can see how you'd find it confusing.

The question of morality is a difficult one, as we are bound by certain frameworks. As this is a Christian forum, one would have to examine the question from within the Christian framework. If one is to do this, the one must also understand Christianity something which arose out of Judaism. Jesus was Jewish, not Christian. A far as who the first Christian was, probably the best answer would be Paul. Judaism itself acknowledges that God's Covenent with the descendents of Abraham was meant only for his descendents. The Jews were a chosen people, and as such, were held to a different code of beliefs. This is not a condemnation upon those who were not Jewish, but rather, placed a responsibility upon the Jewish people to lead by example. As God's people they were expected to teach through their actions.

If Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, it might be said that the same rule can apply. The Messiah expected by the Jews during the exiled period following the coming of the Babylonians was meant to be one who would come to redeem the Jewish people and restore them to their former glory as a nation.

If Jesus was to be the Messiah as prophesized in the Hebrew Scriptures, then one could say that his original mission was meant for the Jews of his time, and did not take into account those outside of the original covenant with Abraham. I am not saying this is the case, only posing it as a possibility.

From this standpoint one could say that Wicca is moral based on a nontheological view of morality. As the Christian framework would be coming out of a framework which originally designed for a specific group (and not the world at large). Therefore from a humanistic approach to morality, Wicca (in its more general form, practice, and philosophy) is decidedly moral. From the stand point of purely Christian Morality, then I can understand how it can be seen as immoral; however I myself would see it as amorral, as it falls outside of its jurisdiction. I may be entirely wrong, as I am only 20, and will admit that I am limited in both age and experience. We all have our opinions and respect is paramount.

At the end of the day, I am left with only my musings about morality, and they are only musings.

Krysia said:

Hi! Just thought I'd jump in here. I've been held spell-bound (no pun intended) by this debate . The same argument could logically be put to the Christian faith. Why are the 10 commandments there? To provide a guideline for which you are to follow. If you don't, you face the reprecussions (hell, eternal damnation, etc.), right? Well, if we don't follow our guideline, the Rede, we face our reprecussions - we get it back three times over - if not in this lifetime, then the next

In love and light,
Krysia

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Well, the repercussions aren't because of any one particular sin, because we can never earn our own salvation, but because of rejection of the sacrifice that can save. In other words, as Christians we don't just obey the Lord out of fear of what will happen if we don't, but because of a love for Him. A willingness to submit to His perfect will.

So, it really is different because we don't choose our own rules. It's out of love for God, sure, but also exalting Him to where He belongs, and responding to our own place in the universe.

Blessings,
Whitehorse

I'm comint to this late so if this scripture is quoted already, sorry.

Galations 5; 19 says that witchcraft is a sin. So if Wiccan = whitchcraft, then it's a sin.

What's interesting is that I don't see many christians out to ban the practice of wiccans or christians that are angry about equal rights for wiccans and wiccan marriage.

Christians don't seem so upset over Wiccans, regardless of what Yahweh and Jesus supposedly said.

Yeah, well they can't deny us marriage rights because we have our own marriage ceremonies and they're for a *man and woman* - hah - of course most pagan traditions are happy to marry same sex couples as well, and once the government gives the go-ahead I think we'll be doing a lot of just that

I'd just like to throw out an opinion regarding the futility of quoting chapter and verse when debating with non-Christians. The authority of Biblical verse if founded on the belief that these words came directly from or were inspired by God, and as such they are true. If you are debating with someone who does not share this belief, the Biblical verses lose their authority, and will be seen as authoritative as any other text would, subject to questioning, analysis, and disagreement. In order to effectively use Biblical verses in a debate involving non-Christians, you need to first be able to convince them that these words actually do have authority from God. Odds are you will be unable to do this as it is more a matter of faith, and it is difficult to prove that the authors of these texts really did have divine inspiration. I've seen a massive amount of Biblical quoting, and it just makes me wonder if its worth your time. This is the inherent difficulty religious debates. Because we necessarily (in the case of Wiccan/Christian debate) disagree on the authority of scripture, it simply cannot be used as an effective tool for agrument. I'm thinking about starting a post on this subject, as I wonder what others' thoughts are on the subject.

As for why Christians don't express anger over people practicing, there are probably some things Jesus said that temper any anger they may have. Love thy neighbor. Letting the innocent cast the first stone. There are many "sins" that take place on a day to day basis that are ignored, many of which (If i was a Christian) I would find much more threatening than witchcraft.

midnight star said:

As for why Christians don't express anger over people practicing, there are probably some things Jesus said that temper any anger they may have. Love thy neighbor. Letting the innocent cast the first stone. There are many "sins" that take place on a day to day basis that are ignored, many of which (If i was a Christian) I would find much more threatening than witchcraft.

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But christians do express anger over many other issues. I think that some sins anger them more than others and I don't think there is biblical justification for it. It's more a sign of personal bigotry or perhaps fear of others.

I suspect they realize, though, that if they try to speak out against the wiccan religion or use the goverment to squelch it, they know that someone could do the same to their religion.

There's that I suppose, but it's also a 'moral' thing. If we want to choose to go the hot place that's our option... but if you want to be homosexual you better not infect their kids with it... it makes about as much sense a a lemon flavored foot cream.

Mylinkay Asdara said:

There's that I suppose, but it's also a 'moral' thing. If we want to choose to go the hot place that's our option... but if you want to be homosexual you better not infect their kids with it... it makes about as much sense a a lemon flavored foot cream.

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Well, that's not really a 'moral' thing then. You're saying folks better choose not to be homosexual or wiccan or jealous or other sins OR ELSE they'll go to the 'hot place'. That's not morality, that's excaping punishment.

Plus, how can you say it is a 'moral thing'? It can't be moral for a wiccan to "not be wiccan". Similarly, he or she can't 'choose' to believe in a yahweh-created 'hot place' if he or she doesn't believe in Yahweh. They've 'experienced' the Wiccan godess so how could you think they could believe otherwise? Likewise, a Wiccan can't tell you that your ways are immoral just because you deny the wiccan goddess. It'd be silly for them to say you christians 'deceive yourselves' by ignoring the true goddess, right?

Morality is therefore realitive and not an absolute.

Now, what did you mean by 'infecting kids with it'?

I was being sarcastic - didn't the lemon flavored foot cream comment tip you off to that?

Ben johnson said:

That would indeed seem to violate the rule on "promoting other religions"; anyone with such an interest has their own access to internet search engines. I would hope and pray that whoever searches, he or she would search with a challenge, to the CREATOR, that the truth will be made manifest. Being Christian, I am convicted that whoever SEEKS God will FIND Him, when they search with all their heart (Jer29:11-14). So, AS a Christian, I need not worry about someone being "led wrong". Wiccans claim to be "truly seeking after the Truth" --- if this is correct, then if the Christian God IS reality, anyone who truly searches will FIND Him, and be found BY Him...

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Moderator,

But, many folks have 'truly sought after the truth' and not all found Yahweh. Billions of folks have found other gods or found godesses or found no gods. This undenably real evidence seems to contradict your statement. To continue making it would seem to be 'bearing false witness'.

Mylinkay Asdara said:

I was being sarcastic - didn't the lemon flavored foot cream comment tip you off to that?

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No, I didn't see it as sarcastic. I thought you were using the phrase as a simile to explain the absurdity of promoting homosexuality.

Perhaps you could explain exactly what your post meant.

I meant that Christians are insane (please Christians don't take it personally) about what they deem offensive and sinful and what they deem acceptably sinful. My point was that whatever criteria they use - I am certianly not able to puzzel out because it is so non-sensicle.

That's all - sorry for the confusion. Sometimes type is a cruddy communitcation medieum.

Im new here so please bear with me, and i apologise in advance for any toes i may step on - and also for my abominable typing skills !! lol.
To begin with i am Wiccan.
I have trawled through all of this thread and i have to say that i am impressed with the intelligence and tolerance expressed by both sides.
I also have to say that i was also impressed by the idiocy of others.
As Wiccans we dont believe in heaven or hell so there is no attraction or fear there.We dont believe in satan ( there is enough evil in man without giving it a figurehead!)
Now this is a subject i could rant on about for a long time - but i wont ( stop cheering !)
I would however suggest that some folk who have posted threads read a little about Wicca before making statments that frankly show their lack of knowledge.And before u all attack me , i have suggested the same thing to Wiccan friends who berate christianity as the source of all the worlds evils !
Personally i believe we are all searching for a connection to Divinity- who cares how we get there or what name we call it as long as we get there.
Now to the origional question " is wicca moral"
Morality is a personal judgement.
I have my own sense of morality and u have yours - u can keep urs as i am busy dealing with my own.
i would point out tho - it took early christians eight commandments to say what we did in one rede. lol
and yes i know there are ten but i didnt count the graven idols one and the first one.
Blessed be everyone
May we all walk in the Light

Oakheart,

Great post. What is the one commandment you speak of?

I'd definitely argue that there are much better and clearer guides to moral behavior than the 10 Cs!

I'd even argue that the 'do unto others' rule is not as good as 'Do NOT do to others what you don't want done to you'. The latter predates christian scripture and is found in ancient asian philosophy.

i think the one in question starts "thou shalt have no other god " or some such.
thankyou for ur comments.
Iam just bracing myself for the onslaught !! lol
blessings

Hi oakheart



Welcome to the forums

oakheart said:

>SNIP<
I would however suggest that some folk who have posted threads read a little about Wicca before making statments that frankly show their lack of knowledge.And before u all attack me , i have suggested the same thing to Wiccan friends who berate christianity as the source of all the worlds evils !

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funny just the other day my son was telling me about his horrible boss. Since the man wears his religon and politics like a shirt.
My son felt justified using the word Christian like an epithet to describe his bosses actions.
I suggested he might be suprised to know the teachings of Jesus. He replied he knew enough about Christianity from his dealings with Christians.
I've brought this up with other Pagans and the concensus seems to be; we understand the Christians far better than they understand us.
I long ago lost count of the people who told me I was a Satanist. It's hard to have a dialog with closed minds.
My interest in Christianity is rather like my interest in a zoo.
I will look but I don't plan on staying.

oakheart said:

Personally i believe we are all searching for a connection to Divinity- who cares how we get there or what name we call it as long as we get there.
Now to the origional question " is wicca moral"
Morality is a personal judgement.
I have my own sense of morality and u have yours - u can keep urs as i am busy dealing with my own.
>SNIP<
Blessed be everyone
May we all walk in the Light

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I like this reminds me of a parable about riding to the top of a mountain. Some choose to ride horses some on donkeys and some even choose to sit backwards. Everyone is on the same mountain. The original parable is quite eloquent. Who know who we will see at the top.

On the morality Q. Even the wiildest pagan I know has a defined sense of morality.
But morality is like opinions everyone has some somewhere.
IMO
If you take the time to define your own morals, perhaps it means more to you than if you just choose your beliefs off the rack.
No one is telling me what to believe,
or telling me I'm not a real pagan cuz my system isn't fearing a god the correct way.
Those things are worked out as we live our lives
not jammed down the throat.
Fun tolerance and morality now theres an old time religion.


Here is an example of wiccan morality.
A Wiccan Priestess I know became aware of some significant difficulties I was having with 2 guys at my work.
I knew one of them was very anoying to her as a woman.
When it was becoming intolerable I asked her if she would help me with a ritual to even my odds.

I'm not Wiccan so my ideas were not flying with her.
She directed me to seek another partner and a different sort of magic as no Wiccan would seek to harm another through magic.
Her solution was to offer cleansing and protection rituals for me. Then she gave me personal counselling for awareness and supplication all very positive stuff.
Whenever I or we sensed the gathering of negative energy I/we used belief in the protection to redirect the energy back to it's source.
No end of bad luck followed those guys. The results were tangible and only their own hate was used against them.

Contrast that to a few times where I saw Christians pray for God to take someone.
Take was their euphemism for kill die etc.
Or for that matter asking God to help soldiers to Kill their enemies.

Wicca has always seemed the high road to me.
I'm not nice enough to be Wiccan
but I was a Christian for over 20 years