Is baptism required?

123flower

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I still don’t know for sure whether baptism is required for salvation or not. I’ve read a lot on this forum and internet. One says it’s required, the other one says not. Who is right?? I don’t know what to believe anymore and my backstory is a bit complex. I’ve already posted my story last year and you have to read it to understand my problem. Here’s the link:


What am I supposed to do? I tend to believe the side who says it’s not required, but I’m not really sure.

And what if someone just cannot be baptise because of different reasons. Like if there is war in your country, be in jail/live in a country where Christianity is forbidden, people on their deathbed, stuck alone on an island, live in the desert, have a phobia for water, or in my case, have anxiety. If I think about al these reasons, it makes sense that, the side who says baptism isn’t required, is right. Or else it wouldn’t be fair for the people who don’t have the possibility to baptise.
 

tampasteve

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I think that, broadly speaking, the scriptures imply that it is not required, but is certainly the ideal. There are verses that say that say all we need to do is "believe and be saved", but some also mention baptism.

Acts 16: 30-31
Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Romans 10:9
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

but also

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:28
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

There are more verses, but I think that is sufficient to show that it is a contested discussion. I think that it makes the most sense in either way to be baptized, we are also instructed to follow the example of Jesus, and he himself was baptized. So in my opinion it is not absolutely required, but it is also the ideal and also something that no person that believes themselves to be a follower of Christ has a good reason to neglect doing.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I still don’t know for sure whether baptism is required for salvation or not. I’ve read a lot on this forum and internet. One says it’s required, the other one says not. Who is right?? I don’t know what to believe anymore and my backstory is a bit complex. I’ve already posted my story last year and you have to read it to understand my problem. Here’s the link:


What am I supposed to do? I tend to believe the side who says it’s not required, but I’m not really sure.

And what if someone just cannot be baptise because of different reasons. Like if there is war in your country, be in jail/live in a country where Christianity is forbidden, people on their deathbed, stuck alone on an island, live in the desert, have a phobia for water, or in my case, have anxiety. If I think about al these reasons, it makes sense that, the side who says baptism isn’t required, is right. Or else it wouldn’t be fair for the people who don’t have the possibility to baptise.
There are two baptisms, Spirit and water:

John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

It is essential to believe in Jesus Christ of Nazareth with all ones heart,soul and mind. Then He will make His Home in the believer with His Holy Spirit . This is the first baptism. Then Christians follow with a water baptism as a proclamation of their conversion into a new life IN Christ.

So yes by all means get baptized in Spirit and water just as scripture describes.

Blessings.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I still don’t know for sure whether baptism is required for salvation or not. I’ve read a lot on this forum and internet. One says it’s required, the other one says not. Who is right?? I don’t know what to believe anymore and my backstory is a bit complex. I’ve already posted my story last year and you have to read it to understand my problem. Here’s the link:


What am I supposed to do? I tend to believe the side who says it’s not required, but I’m not really sure.

And what if someone just cannot be baptise because of different reasons. Like if there is war in your country, be in jail/live in a country where Christianity is forbidden, people on their deathbed, stuck alone on an island, live in the desert, have a phobia for water, or in my case, have anxiety. If I think about al these reasons, it makes sense that, the side who says baptism isn’t required, is right. Or else it wouldn’t be fair for the people who don’t have the possibility to baptise.

If by "required" you mean that if someone, for some reason, isn't or is unable to be baptized that they can't be saved, then no, it's not "required". If by "required" you mean it's the normative means by which God brings us into the Household of faith and that it does what God promises it does in Scripture, then yes it is required.

Christ instituted baptism for our benefit, as the external work and visible expression of God's promise--visible grace if you will. We don't receive baptism for God's sake, or for the sake of other people. It's for us. It's not our work, it's God's work. It's not our faithfulness to God, it's God's faithfulness to us.

I'm a Lutheran, and using Lutheran terminology we simply recognize that God works through "Word and Sacrament". The preaching of the Gospel, baptism, the Lord's Supper, Confession and Absolution are all means of grace, ways through which God comes down to work, create, and strengthen faith in us, to save and justify us by His grace by giving us Christ's righteousness and declaring us forgiven. A key text we look to is Mark 16:16 which states that whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved, but whoever doesn't believe is condemned. We point out that "believe and is baptized" are held together here for salvation, but it is only the lack of faith that condemns. So that one who believes, but is not baptized, is not condemned; though baptism is most certainly salvific, because it is God's saving work and power.

Thus if a person says, "I beleive but have not yet been baptized, am I saved?" We can say yes, absolutely, they are. But then would follow that up with, "Come and be baptized" because baptism is still essential to Christian life.

This is a fairly nuanced perspective that can be difficult when one views salvation in a highly programmatic or systematized manner, i.e. the idea that salvation means following a set of steps in a program to attain the end goal of being saved. That simply isn't how Lutherans understand salvation. Salvation instead is what happens when God comes down in His grace, to love and rescue us, justifying us, forgiving us. Salvation isn't a "status" that one enters into by doing something; salvation is instead being in communion with God, in Christ, because of what Christ has done and what God is doing and giving us--thus salvation is always a present-reality, what God is doing right now, what God says to us right now. It's not just that we were forgiven at one point in our lives, it's that we are forgiven right now, God forgives us right now. God is saving us right now, in this moment even as He does so in all other moments.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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tturt

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Glad you asks.. There's "...the doctrine of baptisms,..." (Heb 6:2).

Baptism which means immersions and there's 3 main Biblical ones. Each one with outward behaviors resulting from this new, inward, spiritual state.

1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus reconcilng us to God (at salvation).
2- By another believer (water baptism) All 3 persons of the Godhead involved in this baptism as well.
3 - By Jesus who sends the promise of the Father baptists us "by," "with" and "in" the Holy Spirit and comes upon us
(The Spirit baptism)


More details:
1 - By The Holy Spirit into Jesus which reconciles us to God is the baptism at salvation. Baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ by believing in His death, burial, and resurrection. We will tell others of our salvation. (Rev 1:5; Matt 26:28; Mark 1:4-9, 16:16; Luk 3:3; 1 Cor 12:13; Acts 2:38; Gal 3:27, II Cor 5:18, Rom )10:9).

Water and Spirit baptism follows salvation - not in a set order though
2 - By another believer (water baptism) "... fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness," (Matt 3:6-16, 28:18-20; Acts 8:39, 10:47, 22:16; John 3:5).

3- - By Jesus who sends the promise of the Father baptists us "by," "with" and "in" the Holy Spirit (The Spirit baptism) includes when the Holy Spirit comes upon us, He endures us with power for service to Him and to keep His Word. (Matt 3:11, 5:16; Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16; John 1:33, Acts 1:5, 8:14-17, 10:44-48, 11:16; I Cor 12:13, Luk 24:49, Eph 5:18, Acts 4:31; I John 3:24; Eze 36:25-28; John 14:25-27).
 
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samwise gamgee

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When Peter preached the gospel to Cornelius and his household the Holy Spirit came on them while Peter was still speaking, before they were baptized in water. This shows they were saved. But Peter did tell them they should be baptized in water. When we are saved we are baptized by the Holy Spirit but after we are saved we should also be baptized in water.
 
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Halbhh

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I still don’t know for sure whether baptism is required for salvation or not. I’ve read a lot on this forum and internet. One says it’s required, the other one says not. Who is right?? I don’t know what to believe anymore and my backstory is a bit complex. I’ve already posted my story last year and you have to read it to understand my problem. Here’s the link:


What am I supposed to do? I tend to believe the side who says it’s not required, but I’m not really sure.

And what if someone just cannot be baptise because of different reasons. Like if there is war in your country, be in jail/live in a country where Christianity is forbidden, people on their deathbed, stuck alone on an island, live in the desert, have a phobia for water, or in my case, have anxiety. If I think about al these reasons, it makes sense that, the side who says baptism isn’t required, is right. Or else it wouldn’t be fair for the people who don’t have the possibility to baptise.
God is not capricious -- you don't have to worry if you can't for a good reason yet. As soon as you can, do it then.

It's good for us. Christ said to do it, and set an example for us (even though He did not need it Himself) -- but He is very able to save those that have no opportunity, and the thief on the cross was only the first example of that, we can be sure.

While we know faith is the key, as already explained (above and here too) -- and so we know He can and does save many who could not get baptized, but it's good to do when we can:

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
 
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SavedByGrace3

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The question is if baptism is required in the same way faith in the Gospel is required?
If you did not believe but were baptized would you be saved?
If you believed but died before you were baptized would you be saved.
I think we should obey and be baptized.
 
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The Liturgist

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I still don’t know for sure whether baptism is required for salvation or not. I’ve read a lot on this forum and internet. One says it’s required, the other one says not. Who is right?? I don’t know what to believe anymore and my backstory is a bit complex. I’ve already posted my story last year and you have to read it to understand my problem. Here’s the link:


What am I supposed to do? I tend to believe the side who says it’s not required, but I’m not really sure.

And what if someone just cannot be baptise because of different reasons. Like if there is war in your country, be in jail/live in a country where Christianity is forbidden, people on their deathbed, stuck alone on an island, live in the desert, have a phobia for water, or in my case, have anxiety. If I think about al these reasons, it makes sense that, the side who says baptism isn’t required, is right. Or else it wouldn’t be fair for the people who don’t have the possibility to baptise.

If you can get baptized, hasten to the font and receive the living waters. I personally suggest a denomination such as the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Catholics, or the Assyrian Church of the East or the Ancient Church of East which administers Chrismation, also known as Confirmation, immediately following Baptism, and does not administer it as a didactic ritual that is mainly applied by Bishops and requires memorizing a catechism, such as Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism or most liturgical Protestant churches, because as much as I love and indeed actively identify with some of these denominations, I believe that Chrismation as it is done by the various Eastern denominations, whether Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Byzantine Catholic or one of the branches of the Church of the East, or indeed Western Rite Orthodoxy, is extremely beneficial.

All of these churches, which together with the Roman Catholics, Anglicans and Lutherans are the strictest in saying Baptism is a necessity while also admitting that there are scenarios where salvation can occur without liturgical baptism. For example, there is the Baptism of Desire, where one dies before being baptized having been unable due to illness or unavailable clergy to receive baptism. There is the Baptism of Blood, where someone is killed for confessing faith in Christ despite not having been baptized. And there is the potential for extraordinary acts of divine mercy, since our Lord declares “I will have mercy on who I will have mercy” and the Scriptures are replete with examples of Christ our God delivering people from an otherwise certain death, whether in this life or in the resurrection. Consider the Good Thief crucified with Jesus, who was saved according to the mercy of Christ despite all his merits.

However, baptism is the means by which we declare our love for God, and God declares His love for us, and we are grafted onto the Body of Christ, the Church, having been born anew of water and the spirit. Thus, if baptism is available to you, and you have not already been validly baptized (a valid baptism is one performed using water, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, administered by a Church that believes in the Christian faith as defined by the Nicene Creed, so, that excludes Mormons because while they baptize in the correct way, they do not adhere to the Nicene Christian faith or believe in the Trinity as taught in the Bible, one God in three persons, but are rather Tritheists. However most other churches which baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are doing it correctly.

Some Orthodox denominations will conditionally rebaptize when receiving converts from some other churches, but this baptism is conditional, and also the Roman Catholics and traditional Protestants will on occasion conditionally rebaptize. This is in cases where it is not known if the person is truly baptized or not. However, because the Nicene Creed says we believe one baptism for the remission of sins, most traditional churches are opposed to rebaptizing those who already were validly baptized whether in infancy or adulthood, which is why the concept of conditional rebaptism exists.

In contrast, regrettably, some Protestant denominations, among those who are of the credobaptist persuasion, reject infant baptism and in some cases rebaptize even adults, based on a misunderstanding of baptism as being purely about church membership and not the washing away of sin.
 
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TheLastGeek

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I still don’t know for sure whether baptism is required for salvation or not. I’ve read a lot on this forum and internet. One says it’s required, the other one says not. Who is right?? I don’t know what to believe anymore and my backstory is a bit complex. I’ve already posted my story last year and you have to read it to understand my problem. Here’s the link:


What am I supposed to do? I tend to believe the side who says it’s not required, but I’m not really sure.

And what if someone just cannot be baptise because of different reasons. Like if there is war in your country, be in jail/live in a country where Christianity is forbidden, people on their deathbed, stuck alone on an island, live in the desert, have a phobia for water, or in my case, have anxiety. If I think about al these reasons, it makes sense that, the side who says baptism isn’t required, is right. Or else it wouldn’t be fair for the people who don’t have the possibility to baptise.
According to Scripture, which should be our ultimate authority, baptism is NOT required for salvation. It is an outward testimony of your inward decision. There will be certain denominations who will tell you otherwise, but again, go back to the Bible for your authority. There's nothing in there about baptism being required to be saved. "Repent and be baptized" is repeated many times in Scripture; one follows the other, they are not the same thing. "All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved". "Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart and you will be saved." It's that simple.
 
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Sabertooth

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Baptism is not a deal-breaker when it is not available (like with a deathbed conversion),
but it is beneficial, highly recommended and a point of obedience for the rest of us.
 
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The Liturgist

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According to Scripture, which should be our ultimate authority, baptism is NOT required for salvation. It is an outward testimony of your inward decision. There will be certain denominations who will tell you otherwise, but again, go back to the Bible for your authority. There's nothing in there about baptism being required to be saved. "Repent and be baptized" is repeated many times in Scripture; one follows the other, they are not the same thing. "All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved". "Confess with your mouth and believe in your heart and you will be saved." It's that simple.

Actually, Scripture doesn’t say that baptism is an outward testimony of your inward decision, rather, you are confusing Zwingli’s deeply flawed interpretation of Scripture in which Baptism and the Eucharist are outward signs of an inward grace, with the actual text, which can be interpreted with greater ease in support of a sacramental model, since the Apostles always baptized converts where possible, and baptism was implied to be a means of grace, like the Eucharist, as opposed to being merely symbolic. This also comports more with the Old Testament, in which we encounter numerous events that prefigure baptism for the remission of sin, and indeed baptism was not new to the Jews when St. John the Baptist started baptizing people en masse.

As far as those “certain denominations” you mention, they include Lutheranism, and Martin Luther originated the concept of sola scriptura, the Moravian Church and Waldensian Church, which are the two oldest Protestant denominations, dating from the 15th century in the case of the Moravians and another century or two in the case of the Waldensians, and also the Anglicans, Methodists, all Reformed and Presbyterian cnurches which adhere to pure Calvinist theology as opposed to incorporating Zwinglianism, not to mention the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and the Assyrian Church of the East, which was the largest in the world until the Islamic despot Tamerlane began a genocide which killed most of them, so that only a million survive, but these include 700,000 speakers of Aramaic, the largest surviving group who speaks the very language spoken by our Lord. So basically, the majority of Christians. Furthermore, there is no evidence that the Early Church ever viewed Baptism as a sign.

Zwinglianism is professed by some Reformed churches who mix it with Calvinism, and also some Baptist and Evangelical churches. But one also finds in the former two groups Calvinist sacramental theology, which is distinct and sees Baptism as regenerative, and also among many Baptists and evangelicals Memorialism and other sacramental theologies exist.

Salvationists and some Quakers are the only denominations that are Christian according to the CF.com statement of faith that have a history of not performing baptism, but their theology tends towards an internal spiritual baptism (likewise with Communion). This theology however is poorly developed, both by the Quakers who excel at mystical theology but are perhaps distracted by it and in the case of most Meetings fail to specify much in terms of doctrinal theology, which has proven to be problematic as there are now many Atheist quakers and quakers who adhere to some other religious orientation, and even more so by the Salvation Army, which initially did baptize, being an offshoot of Methodism until the founder Booth’s wife, who was influenced by Quakerism and an extreme mystical pietism, persuaded him to discontinue the practice, and subsequently the extreme focus of the Salvation Army on their charitable relief efforts led to an underdeveloped theology in general, and some Salvation Army officers (pastors) now do baptisms and/or Holy Communion on occasion. Likewise some Evangelical Quakers also baptize and celebrate the Lord’s Supper.

I suspect my friend @Ain't Zwinglian might have something to say here as well.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Actually, Scripture doesn’t say that baptism is an outward testimony of your inward decision, rather, you are confusincorporating Zwinglianism, not to mention the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and the Assyrian Church of the East, which was the largest in the world until the Islamic despot Tamerlane began a genocide which killed most of them, so that only a million survive, but these include 700,000 speakers of Aramaic, the largest surviving group who speaks the very language spoken by our Lord. So basically, the majority of Christians. Furthermore, there is no evidence that the Early Church ever viewed Baptism as a sign.

Zwinglianism is professed by some Reformed churches who mix it with Calvinism, and also some Baptist and Evangelical churches. But one also finds in the former two groups Calvinist sacramental theology, which is distinct and sees Baptism as regenerative, and also among many Baptists and evangelicals Memorialism and other sacramental theologies exist.

Salvationists and some Quakers are the only denominations that are Christian according to the CF.com statement of faith that have a history of not performing baptism, but their theology tends towards an internal spiritual baptism (likewise with Communion). This theology however is poorly developed, both by the Quakers who excel at mystical theology but are perhaps distracted by it and in the case of most Meetings fail to specify much in terms of doctrinal theology, which has proven to be problematic as there are now many Atheist quakers and quakers who adhere to some other religious orientation, and even more so by the Salvation Army, which initially did baptize, being an offshoot of Methodism until the founder Booth’s wife, who was influenced by Quakerism and an extreme mystical pietism, persuaded him to discontinue the practice, and subsequently the extreme focus of the Salvation Army on their charitable relief efforts led to an underdeveloped theology in general, and some Salvation Army officers (pastors) now do baptisms and/or Holy Communion on occasion. Likewise some Evangelical Quakers also baptize and celebrate the Lord’s Supper.

I suspect my friend @Ain't Zwinglian might have something to say here as well.

According to Scripture, which should be our ultimate authority, baptism is NOT required for salvation. It is an outward testimony of your inward decision.
If baptism is not required, then is baptism OPTIONAL for the Christian? And can you marshal a Scriptural argument against baptizing any Christian?

Baptism is NOT optional for the Christian as we have two commands from Scripture in Matthew 28 and Acts requiring all Christians to be baptized. All the historical texts in Acts that describe conversion, require baptism. There is no such thing in the NT as an unbaptized believer.

Baptism for all Christians is ORDINARY. The ordinary way the Christian lives his life is to be baptized. When baptism is offered to the new Christian, that person is to be baptized. This is one of the marks of where the true teaching of the Church is. This is not rocket science.

I find it interesting that individuals who state baptism is not required for salvation, do so from all the texts in the NT that don't teach baptism such as Romans 10. Romans 10 has nothing to do with baptism. However, when we do go to the texts in the NT that teach the administration of baptism, the Scriptural command is clear: ALL CHRISTIANS ARE TO BE BAPTIZED.

We should always publicaly teach baptism is required for Christian life, except in circumstances where baptism is impossible to be administered.
 
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Sabertooth

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And can you marshal a Scriptural argument against baptizing any Christian?
The obvious one is the thief's conversion on the cross [Luke 23:39-43].
That is not an argument against baptism, per se, but it demonstrates an exception.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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The obvious one is the thief's conversion on the cross [Luke 23:39-43].
That is not an argument against baptism, per se, but it demonstrates an exception.
Christian baptism was instituted after Christ's resurrection and before his ascension. The first Christian baptisms occurred some 53 days after the thief's death. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the thief to be baptized. Saying the thief wasn't baptized as an exception is like saying Jeremiah or King David wasn't baptized.

Christian baptism is not apart of the OT
 
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Sabertooth

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Christian baptism was instituted after Christ's resurrection and before his ascension. The first Christian baptisms occurred some 53 after the thief's death. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the thief to be baptized. Saying the thief wasn't baptized as an exception is like saying Jeremiah or King David wasn't baptized.

Christian baptism is not apart of the OT
Water baptism is referred to in the NT as John's baptism [Acts 19:2-6].
(And that story happened after John was beheaded.)
 
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Soyeong

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I still don’t know for sure whether baptism is required for salvation or not. I’ve read a lot on this forum and internet. One says it’s required, the other one says not. Who is right?? I don’t know what to believe anymore and my backstory is a bit complex. I’ve already posted my story last year and you have to read it to understand my problem. Here’s the link:


What am I supposed to do? I tend to believe the side who says it’s not required, but I’m not really sure.

And what if someone just cannot be baptise because of different reasons. Like if there is war in your country, be in jail/live in a country where Christianity is forbidden, people on their deathbed, stuck alone on an island, live in the desert, have a phobia for water, or in my case, have anxiety. If I think about al these reasons, it makes sense that, the side who says baptism isn’t required, is right. Or else it wouldn’t be fair for the people who don’t have the possibility to baptise.
The actions that we take can indicate that we have faith in God to rightly guide us or that we do not, so while baptism does not earn or result in our salvation, it does indicate that we have faith in God, and it is by that same faith that we are saved. While there are many verses like Romans 4:1-5 that speak against earning our justification as a wage, there are also many verses like Romans 2:13 that show that our justification requires us to be doers of the law, so there must be reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law. The same can be said about baptism, where there are verses that support that our salvation is not earned as the result of baptism while there are other verses that nevertheless support that there are other reason for why our salvation requires us to choose to be baptized, such as faith. However, someone can still have faith in God to rightly guide us even when there is something preventing us from doing that.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Water baptism is referred to in the NT as John's baptism [Acts 19:2-6].
(And that story happened after John was beheaded.)
John's baptism is not Christian baptism. Why? Christian baptism is performed in the name of the F, S, and HS. John's disciples didn't know who the HS was. Therefore, Paul ordered them to have Christian baptism as it wasn't administrated per Jesus' command with the name of the HS. We know very little of John's baptism. We don't even know if John used any formula at all. All we know is water was applied to the human body.

In all probability, Acts 19 deals with whether or not all of the individuals John baptized were to receive Christian baptism. They all must undergo Christian baptism in the name of the F, S, and HS.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Water baptism is referred to in the NT as John's baptism [Acts 19:2-6].

John's baptism of repentance is referred to as John's baptism of repentance.

Christian baptism is just baptism.

(And that story happened after John was beheaded.)

Yes, the disciples in Acts 19 were followers of John the Baptist, which is why they only knew John's baptism, Paul clearly explains this in the passage, that John's baptism was for repentance looking forward to the Messiah. Jesus is the Messiah. And the Messiah instituted His baptism, which is in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

We call this "Christian Baptism" to denote its distinction from John's baptism, or Jewish baptisms (ritual washings).

Jewish ritual washings, John's baptism, and Christian baptism are all significantly distinct in meaning and purpose, the only common element is that they involve water.

When you were baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, did you receive John's baptism, or did you receive Christian Baptism?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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