Is baptism necessary to be saved?

Acts 19:1-4 two different baptism

Yeah I can see in that where there is the misunderstanding that Repentence is the baptism we need and not actual submission by water. No I say it is baptism for the remission of sins is essential and as you read in the verses that follow, the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

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aggie03 said:

Why did the Jews stone Stephen? Why did they crucify Christ? Why did Saul ravage the church? Why are there any disagreements whatsoever?

Romans 10:2 ASV

For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

The fact that there is a sharp disagreement on what is necessary for one to be saved only proves that one of the views is without knowledge.

It is very possible for one to be sincerely wrong.

The constance and Truth of God does not waver and vary based on your point of view.

I agree that we have come to different conclusions - and one of us necessarily is wrong. If we are both being honest, as you have said, then the Truth when accurately presented will cause the person who is wrong to change.

You also hold different conclusions than one who is a Jehovah's Witness. Would you make this same argumentation and justification for the things that they conclude? I really am just curious, I'm not being antagonistic

The fact that we disagree in no way changes the truth of the things that Paul has said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - we can understand perfectly the mystery revealed to him simply by reading the things that he has written.

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My quote was in response to a post that indicated that all people can know the truth on all of the biblical issues if they really want to. My response was to show that wasn't true.

I just don't want this thread to turn into the old, "I'm right and if you disagree with me you disagree with God," thread. That kinda stuff does no good.

CZzyzx41 said:

Yeah I can see in that where there is the misunderstanding that Repentence is the baptism we need and not actual submission by water. No I say it is baptism for the remission of sins is essential and as you read in the verses that follow, the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

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Of course you say baptism is essential, your prophet says it is. I already know your view on every single issue because you are Mormon. How about from now on, you just respond to every post, "Whatever Prophet says." I feel it would save you some time and take up less space on the forum.

I figure its like this.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

If someone doesn't believe, they aren't going to be baptized, because they don't think Christ is the Son of God. If someone does believe and love Jesus, they will obey him. And Jesus clearly tells us to get baptized, so if you didn't you would be disobeying him, on the grounds that you think you know better than Jesus does. Jesus made it very clear that baptism was important because even He Himself got baptized.

If you really believe in Christ, you'll do what he says, and he says get baptized, so you had best be humble and go do it - we don't know "better" than God does. The thief on the cross, if you didn't see, couldn't exactly get down to go get baptized seeing as he is NAILED there, and it would be CRUEL if Jesus had said, "yea you believe in me, but since you can't get to water you can't be saved". and Jesus said DIRECTLY TO HIM in the flesh that he was saved. He commanded him to be saved. The mouth of God can do anything it wants to, formalisms aside. But if you look at all the conversions in the bible, statistically speaking, a huge percentage got baptized. They did this because Jesus commanded them to, and they submitted to his authority.

It's pretty clear, I don't see what the big debate is about.

Here are some passages on baptism:

Matthew 3:4-6 John's clothes were woven from camel hair, and he wore a leather belt; his food was locusts and wild honey. People from Jerusalem and from every section of Judea and from all over the Jordan Valley went out to the wilderness to hear him preach. And when they confessed their sins, he baptized them in the Jordan River.

I believe that baptism is symbolic of washing away your sins...a sign of repentance and forgiveness. I believe through baptism your old life is washed away and you are given a new life...your life that leads to salvation.

Matthew 3:11 (John is speaking here...) I baptize with water those who turn from their sins and turn to God.

Again, I believe that by being baptized you are asking God to forgive you of your past, sinful life and to judge you on the life you will life from the point of your baptism.

Mark 1:4 This messenger was John the Baptist. He lived in the wilderness and was preaching that people should be baptized to show that they had turned from their sins and turned to God to be forgiven.

Romans 6:1-4 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more kindness and forgiveness? Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? Or have you forgotten that when we became Christians and were baptized to become one with Christ Jesus, we died with him? For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

My study Bible states about these verses: "In the church of Paul's day, immersion was the usual form of baptism; that is, new Christians were completely buried in water. They understood baptism to symbolize the death and burial of the old way of life. Coming up out of the water symbolized resurrection to new life with Christ. If we think of our old, sinful life as dead and buried, we have a powerful motive to resist sin."

Colossians 2:11-12 When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. It was a spiritual procedure -- the cutting away of your sinful nature. For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to a new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.

And this is my favorite verse...it is Jesus speaking:
Matthew 28: 18-20 Jesus came and told his disciples, "I have been given complete authority in heaven and on earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Again, my study Bible explains thsi verse as I would...that Jesus commanded them to go out and baptize because baptism is what unites with Jesus...the washing away of their sins through baptism...and then their "resurrection" to their new life with Christ. So, while many feel that baptism is symolic...I guess that in a way they are correct. It is symbolic of us washing away our sins, but that by believing in Jesus, and that he was God's son and he died for us on the cross...that we can be saved. We commit to this covenant by being baptized...much like the Jews were circumcised to show their commitment to the covenant that God gave to Abraham.

These are just some of the verses I refer to when people ask me this question. In my religion, we believe that to be saved we must confess that Jesus is our savior...that he was God's son and died for us so that we might live in heaven with Him forever. Then we are baptized to wash away our old life and given a new life through Christ.

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

Acts 19:1-4 two different baptism

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Yes I agree. In fact there are 7 different baptism in the Scriptures.
Water baptism is not for Salvation though.
Julie

Julie said:

Yes I agree. In fact there are 7 different baptism in the Scriptures.
Water baptism is not for Salvation though.
Julie

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I tell you what Julie I challenge you to backtrack and look at the arguements I have made that shows that obedince to baptism is essential for salvation. So many people just pop in here and say their part but they dont dare try and disprove the clear arguments I have made. They are logical and truthful and cannot be twisted. Its easy when when you teach the truth.

Ephesians 4:4-6 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

While it is true the Bible speaks of multiple baptisms Paul made it clear at the time he wrote to the Ephesians that there is only one baptism that saves. That one baptism is the one that Jesus commaned for his disciples to do in Mat 28:19 which was to be done until the end of time. Only water baptism is commanded and can be followed. Holy Spirit Baptism was a promise and not a command and cannnot be obeyed. A quick survey of Acts 8 will show that Philip baptized with water in the name of Jesus and the people of Samaria were saved and they had not yet receied the gift of the Holy spirit which by the way could only come from the laying on of hands by the apostles. IN acts 22:16 Paul was a arize literly make preperation so that he could be baptized. This can only point to water baptism because you wouldnt have to arize or prepare to receive HS baptism because that could happen to you in any postion. There is no doubt that the one baptism that washes away your sin is water baptism.

cougan said:

There is no doubt that the one baptism that washes away your sin is water baptism.

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Only if we remain within the understanding that the law remains the essence of our covenant with God.
IMO such understanding, while legitimate in itself, keeps us within the origonal, primal Judaic covenant.
Jesus IMO introduces fresh impetous in our approach to God: making this approach a matter of personal expenditure; as much as any following of law.

I take some issue with Paul. While having a strength of conviction that can be held to have given foundation to the Church, he IMO takes the Christian communion in a new cleaving to law; rather than fully following Jesus, in the redemptive potential in faith and love.

Where we take Jesus as fulcrum, and emphasise the personal giving to God that he exemplifies, I do think that return to God can be associated with the HS, that baptism can be through HS.

There is a close connection between literalism in interpretation of the Bible, and claim that water baptism is central, on the one hand: and holistic digestion of the BIblical truth, and claim that baptism can be more of a personal absorption in God, on the other hand.

Literalism has its venerated place: but it does perhaps begin to forget the limitations of that place; when it deigns to reductively displace other approaches to God.

Some seek God in a book of truth, and good luck to them: some seek God in the substance of life itself.
I'm sure that mutual assistance is possible: and equally sure that it is wrong where one seeks doctrinal dominance over the other.

cougan said:

I tell you what Julie I challenge you to backtrack and look at the arguements I have made that shows that obedince to baptism is essential for salvation. So many people just pop in here and say their part but they dont dare try and disprove the clear arguments I have made. They are logical and truthful and cannot be twisted. Its easy when when you teach the truth.

Ephesians 4:4-6 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

While it is true the Bible speaks of multiple baptisms Paul made it clear at the time he wrote to the Ephesians that there is only one baptism that saves. That one baptism is the one that Jesus commaned for his disciples to do in Mat 28:19 which was to be done until the end of time. Only water baptism is commanded and can be followed. Holy Spirit Baptism was a promise and not a command and cannnot be obeyed. A quick survey of Acts 8 will show that Philip baptized with water in the name of Jesus and the people of Samaria were saved and they had not yet receied the gift of the Holy spirit which by the way could only come from the laying on of hands by the apostles. IN acts 22:16 Paul was a arize literly make preperation so that he could be baptized. This can only point to water baptism because you wouldnt have to arize or prepare to receive HS baptism because that could happen to you in any postion. There is no doubt that the one baptism that washes away your sin is water baptism.

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Baptism is something that people do to show their devotion to God. It is not necessary. Just as being perfect is not necessary. Your actions will reflect how you feel inside. If you love God, and realise that Jesus died in order to save you, then you will want to repay him in some way. So you will try to do what God told us. And he did tell us to be baptised. So if possible, one would probably try to get baptised. Just as one would try to be sin free.

cougan said:

I tell you what Julie I challenge you to backtrack and look at the arguements I have made that shows that obedince to baptism is essential for salvation. So many people just pop in here and say their part but they dont dare try and disprove the clear arguments I have made. They are logical and truthful and cannot be twisted. Its easy when when you teach the truth.

Ephesians 4:4-6 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

While it is true the Bible speaks of multiple baptisms Paul made it clear at the time he wrote to the Ephesians that there is only one baptism that saves. That one baptism is the one that Jesus commaned for his disciples to do in Mat 28:19 which was to be done until the end of time. Only water baptism is commanded and can be followed. Holy Spirit Baptism was a promise and not a command and cannnot be obeyed. A quick survey of Acts 8 will show that Philip baptized with water in the name of Jesus and the people of Samaria were saved and they had not yet receied the gift of the Holy spirit which by the way could only come from the laying on of hands by the apostles. IN acts 22:16 Paul was a arize literly make preperation so that he could be baptized. This can only point to water baptism because you wouldnt have to arize or prepare to receive HS baptism because that could happen to you in any postion. There is no doubt that the one baptism that washes away your sin is water baptism.

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romans 8:9b .............., Now if any man have not the Spirit from Christ, he is none of His

1 cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we[believers] all baptized into one body, .........

you say man baptizes us into body ........
Bible states differently

Is Baptism necessary? It most definately is. There are so many passages which include baptism in the process of being saved. Look at Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, Romans 6:3-7, 1 Corinthians 12:13---> Colossians 1:18--->Acts 2:47, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 4:5, and 1 Peter 3:21. We are baptized to wash away our sins. But the thief on the cross wasn't saved, right? Well, look at Matthew 9:6. Jesus had the power to forgive sins while he was on this earth. Besides, the new covenant wasn't established yet because Christ hadn't died. In order to be saved, we must hear the word, believe it, repent of our sins, confess, and be baptized FOR the remission of sins. Faith does save us, but not faith alone. Baptism plays a vital role in our being saved. Without it, we are not saved!

Baptism demonstrates how we are also associated with Christ's resurrection. The question should be asked, why would one who comes to faith, repents, has asked to be forgiven and accepted, refuse to be water baptised

The answer is, no one who truly has "saving Faith", by the work of the Holy one would refuse to be baptised and forgiven.

Essentially, water baptism is our first act of obedience to God and the body of Christ. This is a fruit of the spirit not simply a "work" to gain eternal life but the physical act of water baptism is Spirit driven.



I can not bring an atheist into a church and tell them, all you have to do is immerse (or have sprinkled) water over you and you will be saved even if you do not believe or have faith in the Lord. The act of baptism must be accompanied with faith and repentence or else the act has no meaning or effect.

The entire world of unbelievers could line up at a river and be baptised and this would do them no good at all. Why, because they dont have faith. In my opinion, based upon scripture, neither would it do infants any good. Some may ask then, would not the infants be lost if they died without professing faith? If you care to, we can take up that subject if need be.

Peace and blessings to all, lets remember that we are all serving the same Lord, we are one body and all glory and honor belongs to him.

Qoheleth said:

The question should be asked, why would one who comes to faith, repents, has asked to be forgiven and accepted, refuse to be water baptised

.

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this is not the question

is this obiedance !

or is this needed for salvation?

Of course baptism is important! It is commanded by our Lord (Matthew 28:19) and by Peter (Acts 2:38), and disobedience to this command is sin. This aspect is the primary aspect of its importance: if we do not get baptized, we disobey Christ, and that is sin. The second aspect of its importance is that baptism is the primary sign and seal of the covenant relation between the believer and God: it tells the world that (in the case of adults) the person is a believer, and it tells the Church the same. Thus baptism has this twofold importance. But its third aspect of importance is more inward and personal: it is the way for the believer to most formally express his faith (other than sharing in the Lord's Supper), and this has personal as well as community benefits.


Baptism, then, is important for three reasons: it is commanded, and neglect of it is sin; it is the means of showing the world and the Church that one professes to be a member of God's covenant community (and indeed when it is done in truth it positively shows the person to be a believer); and it expresses faith in Christ, thus having personal and community benefits.
But regardless of this great importance of baptism, we do find that the Scriptures teach that baptism is not necessary to salvation. Like any sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (which, in the long run, is a life-long rejection of Christ, and therefore a life-long rejection of the Gospel; this topic is far aside from our present one, and cannot be discussed here), the sin of failing to be baptized is forgiven because of the shed Blood of Jesus Christ applied to the believer (Colossians 1:14; I John 1:7). This is not a suggestion that Christians should not be baptized: I believe they should be. But it is simply a recognition that failure to be baptized does not prevent one from being saved.

http://www.carm.org/questions/baptnec.htm

Found this site to be amazing, havent read all of it, but so far its making 100% sense.

no, baptism is not necessary to be saved

ps, paxigoth = pacigoth recycled

I tell you what Julie I challenge you to backtrack and look at the arguements I have made that shows that obedince to baptism is essential for salvation.

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I did and I have to tell you that you are wrong. You are misapplying Scriptures to your own destruction.

Julie